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Faith is necessary for Science to function
- Thread starter mnemonicTonic
- Start date
You have problems with the term 'real-ity'?Welcome to the subjective world!
mnemonicTonic
Member
If you can satisfy your senses in a dream, would that be reality?
I don't have issues with a concieved-reality state.
I've have my moments where I know I'm dreaming so, no.
What is conceived is real and objective even if it has a subjective interpretation. It isn't like we are seeing things that don't really exist. Something surely exists.
mnemonicTonic
Member
How are you certain you are not dreaming right now? Can you justify a true belief that you are not?
You just contradicted yourself. Objectivity cannot be subjective!
real != imaginative
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
The inability to be able to tell when you're awake would certainly help explain a lot.
I have no reason to doubt reality as it is always consistent.
No we see things that are real and interpret them subjectively. Just like this sentence I'm typing in response. There is objectivity to be found in my subjective ramblings.
mnemonicTonic
Member
You are not aware of reality, I hope you realize this. You are only conceiving it with your mind.
Again, You don't perceive reality! You conceive it! No matter how objective we try to be in our observations and judgments we must remember we are still subjective-entities.
Then how are we even able to carry a conversation?
We are only subjective-entities if we don't really exist. Existence is real even if you don't know what "existence" is, can you prove otherwise?
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
This subjectivity doesn't preclude the awareness of being in a waking state.
mnemonicTonic
Member
Are you not able to have a conversation with another entity in a dream? Is it not possible for different entities to have conversation's with themselves?
I don't see how you can extrapolate a real entity from an imaginative one.
mnemonicTonic
Member
That's the thing, you are not awake. To be awake means to perceive.You don't perceive reality, your mind conceives it.
yes, but if they punch you in the face you don't feel any pain.
How about touch? You can't touch an imaginative entity i.e. a hallucination
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Oh God, another one of these "everything could be a dream" arguments...
I thought we all understood by now that this argument was completely and totally meaningless, since to accept it as true (or even a valid possibility) makes all discussion, thought, conclusions, methodologies and, well, everything ever done, said or thought ever completely redundant. It's not a surprise to anybody that if you reduce the entirety of existence to something trivial, everything looks trivial. Congratulations, you watched the Matrix.
I thought we all understood by now that this argument was completely and totally meaningless, since to accept it as true (or even a valid possibility) makes all discussion, thought, conclusions, methodologies and, well, everything ever done, said or thought ever completely redundant. It's not a surprise to anybody that if you reduce the entirety of existence to something trivial, everything looks trivial. Congratulations, you watched the Matrix.
hence why I don't call myself a metaphysical solipsist and instead call myself a methodological solipsist
But then there can be no truth to the judgement that we are subjective-entities, any more or less than there can that we are objective.
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riley2112
Active Member
philosophy 101 at it's best.
cablescavenger
Well-Known Member
I don't think an atheist needs reminding of that fact.
thebigpicture
Active Member
What you are saying is not logical. Explain to me exactly how millions of people can come up with the exact same incident at the exact same time in the exact same way and not be connected in any way? Are you telling me that when a city is wiped out by a hurricane, that everyone just imagined it happening? If a person is asleep in bed and is completely unaware that it is snowing outside, then wakes to find him/herself snowed in, are you telling me that that person caught up on imagining what those that already imagined the snow pouring imagined? Are you saying that when there is a drought, that people are just imagining those conditions being that way? If thats the case, couldnt they just imagine a quick fix by imagining a rainstorm? Are you suggesting that we are all somehow telepathically connected? Because if we were, then that wouldnt even leave much room for imagination as it would only take one person to imagine a particular reality and then connect it to everyone elses mind automatically. Or is that what youre suggesting? That people on earth are all of one mind? If you are, even that wouldnt be logical because if we were all of one mind, then everyone would be on the same page about everything including morals, and we all know thats most certainly not the case in life.
What you are saying is not logical because if reality was all a matter of conception, then things would look a whole lot different to a whole lotta people. Reality is reality. People perceive reality. However, people can indeed conceive things in life and can have false perceptions based on that conception. For instance, when a person is in the desert, if that person starts to suffer from severe dehydration, they will start to conceive things. They might conceive a spring of water. Once they have conceived a spring of water, they might have a false perception of the smell and sound of the spring. But what happens as the person gets closer to the spring of water? It disappears. Why? Because it was never there to begin with. It was never real. It was never an actual part of reality. The desert was real, the heat and dryness of the desert was real, the need for hydration was real, but the spring of water was a conception and the smell and sound of the water was a false perception resulting from that conception.
Usually when people conceive things and have false perceptions, it is brain-related; something is having or has had a negative effect on their mind, whether the originating source is internal (genetics, chemical imbalances, etc.)or it originated through an external source (i.e. drugs, accidents). These conceptions can turn into full-blown delusions. Hypochondriacs are convinced they have a serious illness on an on-going basis. But in actuality they are, a lot of times, perfectly healthy (physical wise). But they are so convinced they are ill, that their bodies may actually start to mimic a particular illness, but when they get tested, the tests come back negative because in actuality there is nothing wrong with them physically. Schizophrenics, (depending on what type they are), often conceive things in life. For instance, a schizophrenic can be holding a conversation with someone in a restaurant and all of sudden, they conceive a cricket in the corner. Then they start to falsely perceive the cricket chirping and leaping from one table to the next while the chirping grows louder and louder to the point where the schizophrenic may end up asking the person theyre conversing with: Dont you hear that? Look at that cricket over there. In actuality, the restaurant is real, the tables are real, all the people there are real, but the cricket and its leaping and chirping are not. The cricket is conceived, the chirping and leaping are false perceptions based on that conception.
Some peoples conceptions become their deluded realities (as with hypochondriacs and schizophrenics). But it is not actual reality. Conception is not synonymous with reality. There is a distinction between the two. People dont conceive reality itself. If reality was a matter of conception, that water spring wouldve actually been there for that person in the desert to get relief and be saved from dehydration; that cricket would have actually been there in the restaurant for someone to pick up and kick out of the restaurant. Reality is reality. How people perceive reality is what varies. Some peoples perceptions are based on reality and some people have false perceptions that are based purely on conceptions, and some people's conceptions become full-blown delusions of reality.
But there is no perceived reality. So there is no reality in the picture you paint.