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Faith vs. Works (Good)
- Thread starter Renji
- Start date
As James points out... faith without works is dead!
Faith should have results. If one has faith then obedience to the will of G-d should be a result. When one fails (falls short) in this obedience then the another aspect of faith, Repentance, comes into play. This should teach one to be humble before G-d.
The Talmud says, "On three things the world stands: On Justice, on Truth and on Peace."
Faith should have results. If one has faith then obedience to the will of G-d should be a result. When one fails (falls short) in this obedience then the another aspect of faith, Repentance, comes into play. This should teach one to be humble before G-d.
The Talmud says, "On three things the world stands: On Justice, on Truth and on Peace."
John D
Spiritsurfer
Faith always starts as a seed. It grows when acted upon. a Finished work which started in faith will produce more faith and a bigger "Work" can be taken on.
So it grows till you can move somebody else's mountain for them - not your own ! That one you have to climb - in faith. :yes:
Are you equating faith with hope or trust? IMO, they're different... especially in the modern usages of the terms.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Well the modern use of the word "faith" is a matter of trust, and that's the sense in which (Christian) religious people take it. So I'm not sure where the problem is. True, some people use the word "faith" as a pejorative, but that seems like an innovation to me, and I don't see why I should bow the knee to it.
Perhaps some examples would help. When people undertake great things, they generally have faith that things will turn out well, and frequently, that faith far outstrips any rational basis for their belief. For instance, take the underdog in a race who nevertheless believes not just that they can win but WILL win. Or take the person dying of what the doctors have termed a terminal disease, yet the patient still has high hopes of recovering, and when the patient recovers the doctors affirm that their hope (faith) played a role in their recovery. Or take the army of 200 that battles against an army ten times its size and wins. That takes courage, but also the belief that the battle is winnable (egads!) and worth fighting (better to fight than to surrender). Both beliefs are simply not warranted unless the opponent is known to be incompetent (first belief) or incredibly cruel such that death in battle is far to be preferred to death in the enemy prison (last belief). Or take any city that bids to host the Olympics. They frequently cite economic benefits as a reason to do so. This belief in the economic benefits simply cannot be supported by the evidence, yet the belief persists in every city that bids. The same could be said for great public works projects. Whether their belief in the benefits are borne out, these public works projects generally cost a lot of money, and people throughout the process will fight tooth an nail against them saying it's not worth it. A lot of the contrary arguments are quite cogent. Only faith (or cussidness, by contrast) keeps the project afloat. Other examples could be cited. And despite varying degrees of intensity, a common thread throughout them is faith.
master_che
New Member
I think this portion answers it the best:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph. 2:8-10
For salvation faith in Jesus Christ saves us; but a life that has been save by faith, is shown by our deeds, in that sense faith without works is dead; faith saves us, the deeds are the testimony of what and in who we believe. God already prepared the works, we need to deposit our faith in Christ before be able to walk in them in a way that trully glorifies the Father.
To Dena: saves of from what? from God's wrath.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph. 2:8-10
For salvation faith in Jesus Christ saves us; but a life that has been save by faith, is shown by our deeds, in that sense faith without works is dead; faith saves us, the deeds are the testimony of what and in who we believe. God already prepared the works, we need to deposit our faith in Christ before be able to walk in them in a way that trully glorifies the Father.
To Dena: saves of from what? from God's wrath.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Both are necessary at he beginning, and through living it according to one's best understanding at all times (even though falling short), through the grace of 'on high' salvation will ultimately be realized.
At that point, concepts such as faith and works are no longer essential, for what we presently see as others may turn out to be, from the perspective of the Divine, merely apparent aspects of the indivisible whole of creation.
For that reason, and it is hoped you will forgive me for quoting a from a non-Abrahamic source, it is said in the Zen tradition concerning works,.."The only real service we can render to that which we perceive and interpret in phenomenal existence as 'others' is by awakening to universal consciousness ourselves." - Wei Wu Wei
At that point, concepts such as faith and works are no longer essential, for what we presently see as others may turn out to be, from the perspective of the Divine, merely apparent aspects of the indivisible whole of creation.
For that reason, and it is hoped you will forgive me for quoting a from a non-Abrahamic source, it is said in the Zen tradition concerning works,.."The only real service we can render to that which we perceive and interpret in phenomenal existence as 'others' is by awakening to universal consciousness ourselves." - Wei Wu Wei
I am still wondering why I need saved?
When I look at religions where salvation is the key, I always come back to the fundemental aspect of why I need to be saved. I do not buy that one man acted against God therefore I am born with sin. Also saved from whom!
The concept of salvation comes from Paul and driven home by Augustine of Hippo.
Sorry don't buy it.
When I look at religions where salvation is the key, I always come back to the fundemental aspect of why I need to be saved. I do not buy that one man acted against God therefore I am born with sin. Also saved from whom!
The concept of salvation comes from Paul and driven home by Augustine of Hippo.
Sorry don't buy it.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Because the 'I' you identify with is temporary and will come to an end with the death and dissolution of the body. To be born of the spirit however that Jesus spoke about implies that the self awareness (not personality) developed as a result of this mortal life is translated to the spiritual domain which is not subject to decay like the phenomenal world.
Religion will not or cannot give a person a straight answer. I had an experience of God when 26 years old. Individuals in my life up to that point demonstrated strong beliefs and I stayed away from them. I couldn't understand what it was all about but after work and life experience the thought occurred there must be something better.
Many years later I know and am able to explain the basics.
We have the potential to be immortal. It requires a particular mind that knows God. All Mankind is driven along by own mind each going their own way. Everyone has personal power and can influence the emotional state of others. This produces conflicts. We are all observers of the state of mankind's endeavors. There are many variations. This is what needs to be saved from because it could lead to complete destruction.
There needs to be a transformation and renewing in the mind. It sounds a bit like brainwashing but it is not a case of letting a human do it. I was shown in my mind another mind as a comparison. This other mind was of an immortal. I realized mankind is being observed from within own mind but just a little beyond where we usually see. Seeing is based on life experiences and the energy that flows in the body. Everyone brainwashes them selves when they speak and confirm own belief that has been learn't from a biological form and positioning themselves socially in a culture. This is extremely limiting and determines how a person will act out in reality.
Humans are de-energized by using own power and a weak form of God power manifests a person's appearance, health and finally death. Through a corruption of mind, the earth forces act within the body as shown in oxidizing of cells that age.
You may say where is all this in the bible. Without making the scriptures a mental exercise and by keeping it simple and positive it is every where. Ordinary mostly uneducated people had personal mind experiences and they knew the truth. They did not need to be taught it. Very quickly the more learned or religious types saw an opportunity. They would never measure up because of deep seated personality traits. Cultural mind set or demons influence and prompt when there is an opportunity. Satan is a projection of a magnified personality trait that can be seen in others but not so easily in own self. This drives out God and holds God away. God cannot be seen. We see from own perspective with many drawbacks. Knowing God is in another mind and energy with no drawbacks but it is not easily taken up.
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
From God's Wrath? Hmm... That doesn't sound right. In my belief system, it is not the wrath of God that we need saving from, rather, it is the natural consequences of sinful choices.
Abu Rashid
Active Member
In the Qur'an the two are rarely, if ever, mentioned without one another. Faith and righteous deeds are mentioned regularly together as the two provisions which a believer must have. That being said, neither earns you entrance into paradise, only through the mercy of God can that be attained.
Believe in the heart unto righteousness and confess with the mouth unto salvation.
faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God
without faith it is impossible to please him.