faith without works is dead...

[idea]

ran across this vid thismorning:
[youtube]yhX7m3rF20c[/youtube]
YouTube - The Fire (FULL) by Nate Pfeil

Curious, is there anyone out there that actually believes that they will be saved without works? without fruits?

 

[AnnaTheBeast]

There are people who dont know what their doing, and there are alot of people who dont understand that they arent doing works. And in the end, if hell and god is real, they will be in hell according to religon.

People who believe in god seem to take god being forgiving, and having mercy for granted. They think that if they sin today, hey they can repent tomorrow and its wiped away. I dont think it should work that way, I dont think it would if there was a grand creator.

Christians sin as much as they feel that nonbelievers are sinning. Everyone sins alot in one day. Its human nature, but when you do it in knowledge, then ask repentance, you arent doing a damn thing worth anyones time, especially someone who is said to hear all the thoughts and see all the things every body is doing and thinking at all times.
This man was brutal about the things Jesus is said to have gone through, and anyone who watches this will think their selves through. He got his point across.

 

[idea]

There are people who dont know what their doing, and there are alot of people who dont understand that they arent doing works. And in the end, if hell and god is real, they will be in hell according to religon.

God is just - those who don't know any better in this life - will be taught in the next life. There is a temporary state between our death, and the resurrection - this time will be used to teach those who did not get the chance to learn/act in this life. Everyone will gain equal knowledge, and have an equal opportunity to choose which side to serve.

see:
(Guide to the Scriptures | SSalvation for the Dead.:Entry)
SALVATION FOR THE DEAD. See also Book of Remembrance; Genealogy; Plan of Redemption; Salvation
The opportunity for those who have died without receiving the saving ordinances of the gospel to have these ordinances performed for them in temples by worthy living members of the Church. The dead are taught the gospel in the spirit world and may accept the ordinances performed for them in mortality.
Faithful members of the Church research and prepare family histories to determine the names and birth dates of ancestors so that the saving ordinances may be performed for them.
Say to the prisoners, Go forth, Isa. 49:9 (Isa. 24:22; 1 Ne. 21:9). Proclaim liberty to the captives, Isa. 61:1 (Luke 4:18). He shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, Mal. 4:5–6 (3 Ne. 25:5–6; D&C 110:13–16). The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, John 5:25. Why are they then baptized for the dead? 1 Cor. 15:29. Christ preached unto the spirits in prison, 1 Pet. 3:18–20. For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, 1 Pet. 4:6. The Son visited the spirits in prison, D&C 76:73. Then cometh the redemption of those who have received their part in that prison, D&C 88:99. A baptismal font is not upon the earth that my Saints may be baptized for those who are dead, D&C 124:29. All those who have died who would have accepted the gospel will be heirs to the celestial kingdom, D&C 137:7–10. The Son of God appeared declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful, D&C 138:18. As many of the spirits as were in prison came forth, Moses 7:57.

People who believe in god seem to take god being forgiving, and having mercy for granted. They think that if they sin today, hey they can repent tomorrow and its wiped away. I dont think it should work that way, I dont think it would if there was a grand creator.

Christians sin as much as they feel that nonbelievers are sinning. Everyone sins alot in one day. Its human nature, but when you do it in knowledge, then ask repentance, you arent doing a damn thing worth anyones time, especially someone who is said to hear all the thoughts and see all the things every body is doing and thinking at all times.
This man was brutal about the things Jesus is said to have gone through, and anyone who watches this will think their selves through. He got his point across.

Yes - the point of it all is that we are changed, that we become "new Creatures"... some things have to come from within - you can't force someone to be kind, can;t force someone to be loving, can't force someone to have character - God cannot give what can only come from within... and if we do not learn how to love, we will never experience the heavenly joy which comes from having love from within... I think the fires of hell are figureative - that those who refuse to change will not be given bodies and will therefore be unable to harm anyone - their hell will be in their minds, because they refuse to experience the joy that comes from living righteously, they will be separated from others - eternal solitary confinement - and we know what extended periods of solitary confinement do to people (it's not pretty)... I did like the idea of the vid though. We do need to wake-up, and change! (me included)

 

[idea]

imo hell is solitary confinement...
Lonely Madness: The Effects of Solitary Confinement and Social Isolation on Mental and Emotional Health | Serendip's Exchange

"Individuals do vary in how well they can deal with living in isolation, however. (4) For prisoners with pre-existing mental or emotional disorders, living without normal human interaction, physical and mental activity and stimulation can aggravate their symptoms to levels equivalent to torture. (2), (3) In one complaint filed against the Connecticut Department of Correction in August 2003, social isolation and sensory deprivation drove some prisoners to "lash out by swallowing razors, smashing their heads into walls or cutting their flesh." (3) "


the entire point of the Bible - don't steal, don't lie, don't covet, love one another - it's all about how we treat one another, all about trying to form meaningful relashonships... the opposite of that, solitary confinement, is hell.

 

[AnnaTheBeast]

I like being alone, personally.
Hell to me would be a never ending flow of millions of different voices in my head in gibberish. That would drive me mad.
Or to watch my family die repeatedly over and over in different ways and not to be able to help them.
Hell is pain,not physical but mental, or madness. To me at least.

 

[blueman]

ran across this vid thismorning:
[youtube]yhX7m3rF20c[/youtube]
YouTube - The Fire (FULL) by Nate Pfeil

Curious, is there anyone out there that actually believes that they will be saved without works? without fruits?

James was not referring to salvation by legalism. Salvation comes through confessing and believing in Jesus Christ. You confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord (Romans 10:9,10). It is by grace we are saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9).

James was referring to the works we do in trusting God to carry out His purpose and working in our lives for His glory as it relates to loving others, telling others about His love and grace, serving others and being humble. The action and works is in our efforts to draw others to God by displaying a Christ-like character, not holding on to our salvation. That is the biggest false doctrine out there. This is not a legalistic relationship through Christ Jesus.

 

[idea]

James was not referring to salvation by legalism.

James gave mulitple examples of individuals who performed mighty works - works through which they gained their salvation.

Salvation comes through confessing and believing in Jesus Christ. You confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord (Romans 10:9,10). It is by grace we are saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9).

James was referring to the works we do in trusting God to carry out His purpose and working in our lives for His glory as it relates to loving others, telling others about His love and grace, serving others and being humble. The action and works is in our efforts to draw others to God by displaying a Christ-like character, not holding on to our salvation. That is the biggest false doctrine out there. This is not a legalistic relationship through Christ Jesus.

I agree that without Jesus we could not be saved - salvation takes two things, it takes both faith and works - not one or the other, both.

(Guide to the Scriptures | WWorks:Entry)
WORKS
A person's actions, whether good or bad. Each person will be judged by his own works.

The Lord will render to every man according to his works, Prov. 24:12.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, Matt. 5:16 (3 Ne. 12:16).
He that doeth the will of my Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, Matt. 7:21.
Faith without works is dead, James 2:14–26.
They must be judged of their works, 1 Ne. 15:32 (Mosiah 3:24).
We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do, 2 Ne. 25:23.
Teach them to never be weary of good works, Alma 37:34.
It is requisite that men should be judged according to their works, Alma 41:3.
By their works ye shall know them, Moro. 7:5 (D&C 18:38).
I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, D&C 137:9.

 

[Tiapan]

Is this rap for zealots, whoa what a narrow minded point of view.

cheers

 

[idea]

I like being alone, personally.
Hell to me would be a never ending flow of millions of different voices in my head in gibberish. That would drive me mad.
Or to watch my family die repeatedly over and over in different ways and not to be able to help them.
Hell is pain,not physical but mental, or madness. To me at least.

I like to be alone too - to read a book, or listen to music... but there is a limit to that. One summer I lived out in the desert of NM - I worked during the day, but at night, I was on my own with the stars and hills - no TV, no radio, no phone - I thought I would like it... after awhile, I didn't. (My job - computer programming at LANL - pretty much just sitting in front of a computer all day thinking in binary... so not much of a social life at work either)


..."It is difficult if not impossible to pinpoint the exact reasons why social isolation and sensory deprivation in solitary confinement situations causes mental and emotional breakdown in prisoners."...

 

[idea]

Is this rap for zealots, whoa what a narrow minded point of view.

cheers

It's for people who don't want to just talk the talk - it's for those who want to experience walking the walk

and there are great experiences to be had through walking the walk!

like teaching my kids to swim - at first they freak out, don't want to get water on their face, think they are going to drown etc. etc. that it is the most painful thing in the world... then they figure it out, and finally understand how fun it is...

"We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased." - Lewis

 

[AnnaTheBeast]

To be honest if there is a hell, then it is different for every man or woman that enters. It is their worst nightmares materialized, their worst nightmares times 10000. That makes alot of sense to me if ever there were a hell.

 

[blueman]

James gave mulitple examples of individuals who performed mighty works - works through which they gained their salvation.



I agree that without Jesus we could not be saved - salvation takes two things, it takes both faith and works - not one or the other, both.

(Guide to the Scriptures | WWorks:Entry)
WORKS
A person's actions, whether good or bad. Each person will be judged by his own works.

The Lord will render to every man according to his works, Prov. 24:12.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, Matt. 5:16 (3 Ne. 12:16).
He that doeth the will of my Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, Matt. 7:21.
Faith without works is dead, James 2:14–26.
They must be judged of their works, 1 Ne. 15:32 (Mosiah 3:24).
We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do, 2 Ne. 25:23.
Teach them to never be weary of good works, Alma 37:34.
It is requisite that men should be judged according to their works, Alma 41:3.
By their works ye shall know them, Moro. 7:5 (D&C 18:38).
I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, D&C 137:9.

You show me where James required works in order to be saved. The "works" for salvation are confessing and believing in Jesus Christ as Lord. It would be hard for you to reconcile your intepretation of the James passage with that of Ephesians 2:8,9. As you grow in your relationship with Jesus, you will begin to take on His character and exhibit the fruit of the Spirit (Galations 5:22-25) and bear fruit in your relationship with others, but this in not a "legal" requirement for salvation.

 

[idea]

To be honest if there is a hell, then it is different for every man or woman that enters. It is their worst nightmares materialized, their worst nightmares times 10000. That makes alot of sense to me if ever there were a hell.

it's a tunnel with no light at the end...

life - progression - eternal life. Life is something that grows, plant vs. rock, plants grow.

eternal death - death is something that does not grow, that's stagnant, just sits there, never changing...

to me, we can either change, and grow, and live... or we can have stiff necks, not change, just sit there in stagnation and death... life vs. death.

 

[idea]

You show me where James required works in order to be saved. The "works" for salvation are confessing and believing in Jesus Christ as Lord.

Abraham did more than just confess - he was willing to offer Isaac on the alter.
Rahab put her life on the line in order to help another - that is more than just confessing something.

(New Testament | James 2:19 - 26)
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also bbelieve, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that afaith without bworks is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father ajustified by works, when he had boffered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by aworks was faith made bperfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham abelieved God, and it was imputed unto him for brighteousness: and he was called the cFriend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is bdead, so faith without cworks is dead also.

It would be hard for you to reconcile your intepretation of the James passage with that of Ephesians 2:8,9.

I agree that it takes both faith and works - we can't do it on our own - but it takes both, not just one or the other. Ephesians points out that it is not just works, it takes both.

As you grow in your relationship with Jesus, you will begin to take on His character and exhibit the fruit of the Spirit (Galations 5:22-25) and bear fruit in your relationship with others, but this in not a "legal" requirement for salvation.

(Guide to the Scriptures | S Salvation.:Entry)
SALVATION. See also Atone, Atonement; Death, Physical; Death, Spiritual; Exaltation; Grace; Jesus Christ; Plan of Redemption; Redeem, Redeemed, Redemption
To be saved from both physical and spiritual death. All people will be saved from physical death by the grace of God, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death as well by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ.



I think there is confusion over salvation from physical death, and salvation from spiritual death.

Salvation from physical death is given to all - As in Adam all died, so in Christ shall all be made alive - it would be unjust for us to die because of another's (Adam's) sin. Jesus overcomes physical death for all.

salvation from spiritual death depends upon works though - if we are not obedient, do not have charity, humility, etc. etc. etc. we will not be spiritually / mentally free.

 

[blueman]

You show me where James required works in order to be saved. The "works" for salvation are confessing and believing in Jesus Christ as Lord.

Abraham did more than just confess - he was willing to offer Isaac on the alter.
Rahab put her life on the line in order to help another - that is more than just confessing something.

(New Testament | James2:19 - 26)
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also bbelieve, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that afaith without bworks is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father ajustified by works, when he had boffered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by aworks was faith made bperfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham abelieved God, and it was imputed unto him for brighteousness: and he was called the cFriend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is bdead, so faith without cworks is dead also.



I agree that it takes both faith and works - we can't do it on our own - but it takes both, not just one or the other. Ephesians points out that it is not just works, it takes both.



(Guide to the Scriptures | SSalvation.:Entry)
SALVATION. See also Atone, Atonement; Death, Physical; Death, Spiritual; Exaltation; Grace; Jesus Christ; Plan of Redemption; Redeem, Redeemed, Redemption
To be saved from both physical and spiritual death. All people will be saved from physical death by the grace of God, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death as well by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ.



I think there is confusion over salvation from physical death, and salvation from spiritual death.

Salvation from physical death is given to all - As in Adam all died, so in Christ shall all be made alive - it would be unjust for us to die because of another's (Adam's) sin. Jesus overcomes physical death for all.

salvation from spiritual death depends upon works though - if we are not obedient, do not have charity, humility, etc. etc. etc. we will not be spiritually / mentally free.

You are totally misintepreting Ephesians 2:8,9. It explicitly states that works will not be our path to salvation. Let's say I'm on my death bed and through hearing the message of salvation, I pray and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. An hour later, I die. According to your interpretation, I'm heading on a path to hell. How do you reconcile this?