Faith

[Earthling]

I reviewed the information in your website and found it full of holes. In fact you had not addressed the dating of the Pentateuch prior to ~1000-700 BCE, for which there is no evidence. You side step the documentary hypothesis with an argument from ignorance and an accusation to atheists, which is a bogus argument. The documentary hypothesis is most definitely not presently an atheist argument, nor is it totally rejected as you claim.

A lot of the sources you cite are a bit old.

Where in the website do you give evidence for the Pentateuch prior to ~700 BCE?

Would you do me a favor? Would you repost this in a new thread? I would love to have a discussion on the subject but I don't want this thread to go off topic.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Well it seems that many people have different ideas about faith. Has anyone checked the Bible? Or are we all too afraid of what might be there so we make up our own ideas? Ephesians 2:8 says that faith is a gift from God. It is not something you can learn on your own or demand that God give it to you. God decides who and how much. Sorry to ruin your discussion but there is nothing to discuss. If you have faith, thank God for it. If you do not have faith , all you can do is hope God will decide to give you some. It is not up to you.

 

[QuestioningMind]

That's no kind of answer. I would never give that as an answer. I may say I don't know the answer, and I would try and find the answer but I would never say that you have to take it on faith. However, since we are talking about faith, blind or not, there may be times when you just have to have faith. That sounds like it could be a contradiction but we are making the distinction between some specific knowledge and faith.

Let me explain by example. I've been a student of the Bible for 22 years, I know fairly well what God's plans are for the world. I'm educated on the subject. The why, the what, but I don't know the when and man, I would love to see it. I would love to see the corrupt system torn down in front of my eyes. I know it will happen because God promises it, but I want to know when. I just have to have faith. It isn't blind faith, but it is faith.

It isn't knowledge in the sense that I can say for certain that it is going to happen. It isn't a fact that has transpired. It isn't yet past tense. But that doesn't mean it comes from ignorance nor that the faith is blind.

"That's no kind of answer. I would never give that as an answer. I may say I don't know the answer, and I would try and find the answer but I would never say that you have to take it on faith."

Of course I never said that YOU tell atheists that there are things they have to just take on faith. But surely you acknowledge that there are plenty of theists who do. I can't count the number of Christians who tell me that the bible is the word of God or was inspired by God and when I ask for the verifiable evidence that this is so they respond with "You have to take it on faith." So when you ask why do atheist say that theistic faith is 'blind faith' it's because so many theists insist that blind faith is required.

You insist that you know there is a god and that you know fairly well what this god's plan is and that you've reached these conclusions based on verifiable evidence and not blind faith. I suppose that it's possible, but I have serious doubts. I suspect that if we were to evaluate your verifiable evidence for the existence of this god and his plans that we would discover some key piece of evidence that you claim is verifiable that I will view as requiring blind faith. For instance my former sister-in-law often claimed that the fact she once desperately needed a job she'd applied for and prayed to god daily that she would get it and then she landed the job as verifiable evidence that prayer works. Of course, she took it on blind faith that god intervened to get her the job and completely ignored the reality that she just might have been the most qualified candidate who had applied at the time.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Faith is defined by the Bible, not the skeptic.
Hebrews 11:1: "Now faith (pi'stis) is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

The conviction of things not seen... right? If you can't see something then you are pretty much blind to it.

Can you see love? No, but I know my wife loves me.

 

[dianaiad]

If I say to you, "Trust me," when you do not know me, how can you have trust in me? If I say to you, "Trust me," and you know me and I haven't done anything to have broken that trust, then you can trust me.

Indeed. "Faith" is not belief. It is based upon belief. Faith is that combination of belief....and what one does about that belief.

The belief itself may be based upon anything, and may be ABOUT anything, whether it is religious or the bank's fiduciary ethics or Trump's ability to get North Korea to play ball or whether that bridge will hold you up.

Doesn't matter; you can believe in something all you want to, but until you act upon that belief, it's not faith.

...and 'trust' is a good synonym for faith, because if you trust someone, you'll prove it by behaving as if you expect that your trust will not be violated. You will obey the tenets of your religion. You will deposit money into the bank. You'll invest in companies that will profit if N. Korea cooperates. You will cross the bridge.

Doesn't much matter what evidence made you believe you could trust (have faith in) any of that; 'faith' is that you DO believe enough so that you will actually BEHAVE accordingly.

So while I think you may be conflating 'faith' and 'belief' a leetle bit, I think you have it pretty much nailed. IMO, of course, which doesn't mean much.

 

[Thief]

If I say to you, "Trust me," when you do not know me, how can you have trust in me? If I say to you, "Trust me," and you know me and I haven't done anything to have broken that trust, then you can trust me.

If you are witness to Someone raising the dead.....
and He says......follow Me

is it not a 'given'.....that you will

 

[Audie]

I think you mean to say that they don't necessarily believe current science rather than that they are ignorant. Can you, for example, tell me where the water came from, because it wasn't simply rain. Or can you tell me how many animals it would have taken or the exact dimensions of the ark?

Probably not, you can, however, dismiss it without any real consideration because the propaganda you are conditioned with doesn't say that it is a real possibility. This is called science? Science is never wrong?

Withal, you've packed in more layers of insinuation
than I will honour by addressing, other than to say you got
all of it wrong, esp your invidious comments about me,
who you certainly knoweth not. False witnessing? Tsk.

As for what you say I "probably mean"-
Why no, I mean exactly what I said. Lets d
look at what is involved.

Your fundamentaist churchs draw their strength
from the low rungs of the educational ladder.
No reflection on their worth,as people, but definitely
on the worth of their uninformed opinions.

The janitor may not "necessarily believe" the
"current science" on a brain scan, and advise
you not to get surgery.

Similarly someone may doubt the germ theory
of disease. They just dont necessarily believe
the "current" science, dont ya know. And that is
good enough!

To be well informed in matters of geology and
yet hold with intellectual honesty that there was
a flood is impossible.

 

[Audie]

The problem from the skeptics perspective is the lack of provenance and authorship of Genesis and the Pentateuch that remotely demonstrate it as history and whether Cain and Abel were in reality real persons in history.

Ha! It is a matter of faith. Like I was walking with this other
girl across campus and she picked up a five pointed
autumn leaf and said God send it to represent the
Pentarch.

 

[Audie]

Yes, well I, uh . . . Very clever. A little skeptic's humor at my expense?

Actually I don't. Let's say I read a respected scholar's interpretation of the soul a s being immortal and then I read Ezekiel 18:4 in KJV. The soul dies. So I think to myself, hmmm . . . and I look at it according to some other translation, where it says the life, instead of the soul dies. Well then I have to balance that out. I do some research on the soul, according to the Bible, find out it's pretty well documented that the immortal soul concept comes from Greek philosophy which began to influence Jewish thinking about the time of Alexander The Great's being welcomed to the temple in Jerusalem in 332 B.C.E. and then was later adopted by Christianity, as taught by Plato, a student of Socrates. Something like that.

I can read something in the Bible, misinterpret it, happen upon the wrong sources, it could be spurious, for example. Jesus saying who is without sin cast the first stone . . . never happened. It didn't appear in earlier manuscripts.

So do you have faith that your bible tells the truth
and there really- really was a noahs ark? That
should settle whether you do blind faith.

Humour at your expense? Not at all. You do
have a knack for misorverinterpreting, as W
might have said.

I said as elsewhere exactly what I meant,
and unlike you, with an economy of words.

Off you go talking about Greek philosophers!

And out of all of that,you managed a vague
half-answer, "I dont"*. Dont believe the flood,
or dont do blind faith?

Tres amusant! For lo, it is clear from what you
wrote later that you do believe the flood, and
perforce, also do blind faith. Why do you try
to deny it?

To show you that there was no flood would be
impossible, with your faith making hard your face
or whatever the phrase is, so I wont bother to
try to educate you.

In the event, you've shown your op to be bankrupt,
so there is not much left to see here.


* Custer is said to have spoken his last roecorded
words before the battle, on being asked the day
before- "Now George, dont get greedy, leave some
for us." To which he answered, enigmatically,
"No, I wont."

 

[Audie]

Faith is the impetus for our movement. Faith is the control of our environ. I move my arm by faith. I walk by faith. "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done." - Matthew 21

The mountain will do as told,but it will take a very long
time.

 

[Audie]

Faith in a belief isnt wrong or anything unless its hurting people. One person's ignorance is another persons wisdom.

If someone haa faith in the flood, they arent ignorant. Their faith is whats important. Regardless the facts, someone with faith can pretty much make anything a means of importance to them even though it makes no sense to others.

We dont need to find meaning only in what another person says is not real but to us it is. I saw a quote that read: "Do. Whatever. The F*. You want." It doesnt need justification. I find it easier to understand believers more individually. Individual belief varie s even if they look the same in a group.

I did not suggest anything about faith being "wrong".
One person's ignorance is another's wisdom?
That is an awful broad brush stroke of generalization.
Id say far far far more often it is not so.

IF someone has faith in the flood, they are either ignorant
or intellectually dishonest. Most such are simply clueless
about geology, but here is what you get when such a person
actually studies.

I give you Dr. K Wise, a paleontologist and fundy.
I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turned against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate

The very definition of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I did not suggest anything about faith being "wrong".
One person's ignorance is another's wisdom?
That is an awful broad brush stroke of generalization.
Id say far far far more often it is not so.

IF someone has faith in the flood, they are either ignorant
or intellectually dishonest. Most such are simply clueless
about geology, but here is what you get when such a person
actually studies.

I give you Dr. K Wise, a paleontologist and fundy.
I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turned against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate

The very definition of intellectual dishonesty.

Its: One person knows his life's purpose is to die. The other person knows his life's purpose is to live. Both know we will die. The former lives for today; the latter lives for tommorow.

Im pretty simple.

Im confused. One persons wisdom (not knowledge) is another person's ignorance (not intellectual dishonesty).

Someone who doesn't know geology, may still has wisdom of how the earth works not by study but by experience. The other is ignorant of the experience to find how thr earth works by their own experiences but studies and written experiences tried by others.

 

[Earthling]

Withal, you've packed in more layers of insinuation
than I will honour by addressing, other than to say you got
all of it wrong, esp your invidious comments about me,
who you certainly knoweth not. False witnessing? Tsk.

As for what you say I "probably mean"-
Why no, I mean exactly what I said. Lets d
look at what is involved.

Your fundamentaist churchs draw their strength
from the low rungs of the educational ladder.
No reflection on their worth,as people, but definitely
on the worth of their uninformed opinions.

The janitor may not "necessarily believe" the
"current science" on a brain scan, and advise
you not to get surgery.

Similarly someone may doubt the germ theory
of disease. They just dont necessarily believe
the "current" science, dont ya know. And that is
good enough!

To be well informed in matters of geology and
yet hold with intellectual honesty that there was
a flood is impossible.

Oh, I'm sorry, for a minute there I thought you were simply dismissing anyone who believes the Bible as ignorant. How presumptuous of me. Let me introduce you to some interesting people. All of them believe the flood was quite real and evolution isn't.

Wolf-Ekkehard Lonnig, has done scientific work dealing with genetic mutation in plants for the past 30 years, for 21 of those years with the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research in Cologne, Germany. Also an elder in the Christian congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Byron Leon Meadows works at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in the field of laser physics. He is currently involved in the development of technology to improve the ability to monitor global climate, weather and other planetary phenomena. Also an elder in the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Kenneth Lloyd Tanaka is a geologist employed by the U.S. Geological Survey of Flagstaff, Arizona. For 30 years doing work in scientific research in various fields of geology including planetary geology. He has had dozens of research articles and geologic maps of Mars published in accredited scientific journals. He also spends about 70 hours every month promoting Bible reading.

Paula Kincheloe has several years of experience as a researcher in the fields of cell and molecular biology and microbiology. In addition to studies in DNA, RNA, proteins, and metabolic pathways she is also a volunteer Bible instructor for Russian speaking communities.

Enrique Hernandez-Lemus is a full time minister and also a theoretical physicist working at the National University of Mexico. His secular work involves finding a thermodynamically feasible explanation for the phenomenon known as gravothermal catastrophe, a mechanism of star growth. He has also worked with the complexity in DNA sequences.

The idea which you most definitely are presenting, which is that anyone who believes something other than what you believe is uninformed is xenophobic and stupid.

 

[Audie]

Oh, I'm sorry, for a minute there I thought you were simply dismissing anyone who believes the Bible as ignorant. How presumptuous of me. Let me introduce you to some interesting people. All of them believe the flood was quite real and evolution isn't.

Wolf-Ekkehard Lonnig, has done scientific work dealing with genetic mutation in plants for the past 30 years, for 21 of those years with the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research in Cologne, Germany. Also an elder in the Christian congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Byron Leon Meadows works at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in the field of laser physics. He is currently involved in the development of technology to improve the ability to monitor global climate, weather and other planetary phenomena. Also an elder in the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Kenneth Lloyd Tanaka is a geologist employed by the U.S. Geological Survey of Flagstaff, Arizona. For 30 years doing work in scientific research in various fields of geology including planetary geology. He has had dozens of research articles and geologic maps of Mars published in accredited scientific journals. He also spends about 70 hours every month promoting Bible reading.

Paula Kincheloe has several years of experience as a researcher in the fields of cell and molecular biology and microbiology. In addition to studies in DNA, RNA, proteins, and metabolic pathways she is also a volunteer Bible instructor for Russian speaking communities.

Enrique Hernandez-Lemus is a full time minister and also a theoretical physicist working at the National University of Mexico. His secular work involves finding a thermodynamically feasible explanation for the phenomenon known as gravothermal catastrophe, a mechanism of star growth. He has also worked with the complexity in DNA sequences.

The idea which you most definitely are presenting, which is that anyone who believes something other than what you believe is uninformed is xenophobic and stupid.

You forgot to list Dr. K Wise, who among those has at
least explained himself:.

I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turned against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate.

The very definition of intellectual dishonesty, as noted elsewhere.

Nothing unusual in scientists being intellectually dishonest.

A bit disturbing that someone should find virtue in it, though
but there you go. Wallow in it, revel in it.

As for this-

The idea which you most definitely are presenting, which is that anyone who believes something other than what you believe is uninformed is xenophobic and stupid

Now, I do appreciate that you have a losing hand
but your clumsy attempts at sarcasm earlier and then
this bit of overwrought nonsense you made up about me?

You are thrashing about like a foul-hooked alligator,
trying to bite something.

Most undignified. And for a nominal Christian?
You are doing the false witness again.

But never mind all that. All I wanted to do was see
if you actually do blind faith, which has been
well answered. You dont need to reveal all your
shortcomings. Unseemly, like, eeewwhh.

 

[Nakosis]

Can you see love? No, but I know my wife loves me.

See, in this case means to perceive, have had perception of. I suspect your wife has done many things that shows she loves you. So if you're still taking that love on faith, there might be something missing in your relationship.

 

[Nakosis]

And yet you place your trust in the place that you work at not knowing what their bank balance is.

For the past many many years the check has always cleared. There still some trust but it's not based on something unseen. If you get involved with a new company, sure there is initially faith involved.

 

[Nakosis]

But you learn to have faith in things not yet seen because you had faith before and it was answered. So faith is answered and built up.

Then it is no longer faith. Faith develops into trust.

Faith is for the novice who has no idea whether the master they are receiving instructions from has really any idea about what they are teaching.

Ideally the novice through experience can become the master and instruct others based on his/her knowledge. Hopefully by this time the faith they initially placed in their own teacher proven out.

 

[Kenny]

For the past many many years the check has always cleared. There still some trust but it's not based on something unseen. If you get involved with a new company, sure there is initially faith involved.

Correct... and in the past many years, God has shown Himself to be faithful to me and thus there is a trust built up. However, within the context of both business and God, there are levels of faith. For business, "can I take the next step in authority" or "can I handle this greater deal" etc. For God, it is one level of faith to another level of faith.

 

[Nakosis]

OK. Chapter 11 of Hebrews is sort of the chapter of faith. Why was Abel's faith greater than Cain's, as evidence through their sacrifices? Genesis 4:2-7? Because Abel chose the finest, or first-lings of his flock while Cain just looked around on the ground for the rotten fruit that had already fallen off the tree.

Interesting understanding.

However I don't see faith being involved here, just good sense. Or lack there of.

Cain should have learn from the mistake instead of killing his brother. Anger, rage, jealousy make us do bad things.

 

[Earthling]

Interesting understanding.

However I don't see faith being involved here, just good sense. Or lack there of.

Cain should have learn from the mistake instead of killing his brother. Anger, rage, jealousy make us do bad things.

Well, Abel had faith and it was evident in his care in sacrificing whereas Cain didn't.