Faith

[Katzpur]

Where does it come from?

I believe it comes from God's desire that we come to know Him. Since we have no concrete proof that He exists or that we are His creations, we can only come to know Him through faith.

...I see faith alone as an evil insanity created by the Devil to lead people astray. Makes people believe that they don’t actually have to DO anything.

Tell me about it. I'm having another conversation on another forum right now with someone who believes exactly that. It's driving me crazy.

Also, can we do anything to obtain faith, or is out of our hands?

I think a true desire is the key. Since I believe God wants us to know Him and we can only do so through faith, it would be logical to assume that He grants us this ability to obtain faith when we go to Him and ask for it.

 

[Iymus]

Insight below from a universal perspective

Where does it come from?

1. our lifestyle or way of life projected from our hopes and expectations; At least living or complete faith.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Also, can we do anything to obtain faith, or is out of our hands?

What say you?

2. Sincerity and Discipline along with Endurance to Maintain.
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3. Encouragement, Motivation, or Vision could be the foundation of faith "substance of things hoped for"; crucial but by itself it decays unless living or complete.

 

[74x12]

Where does it come from?


My thoughts: From the good works that we do. So, I see faith alone as an evil insanity created by the Devil to lead people astray. Makes people believe that they don’t actually have to DO anything.


Also, can we do anything to obtain faith, or is out of our hands?

What say you?

Faith is a gift of God. True faith is dead without works btw ...

What can you do to obtain more faith? You exercise faith. That is put it in operation. Trusting God everyday. Start with small things and build your faith up. You start small ... I lost my keys, I pray. I find them. My faith grows and I can pray for greater things next time. Simple.

 

[InChrist]

Where does it come from?


My thoughts: From the good works that we do. So, I see faith alone as an evil insanity created by the Devil to lead people astray. Makes people believe that they don’t actually have to DO anything.


Also, can we do anything to obtain faith, or is out of our hands?

What say you?

I think faith is something that is based on truth and directed toward something/someone worthy of placing faith in.

 

[Maximus]

O no.
Verses.

You asked and so I gave you the answer. If it is too much trouble for you to click your mouse on a link:


8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Maximus]

1. How are you defining "faith?
2. Rather than obtaining faith, shouldn't we be trying to obtain knowledge, and converting what faith we have into knowledge?

Our reason - from which we obtain knowledge of the world - is a reflection of the rational nature of the Creator. There is no knowledge apart from Him.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Where does it come from?


My thoughts: From the good works that we do. So, I see faith alone as an evil insanity created by the Devil to lead people astray. Makes people believe that they don’t actually have to DO anything.


Also, can we do anything to obtain faith, or is out of our hands?

What say you?

Faith is what people rely on when they don't have verifiable evidence for their claims. Personally I don't rely of faith to determine anything of consequence.

 

[74x12]

1. How are you defining "faith?
2. Rather than obtaining faith, shouldn't we be trying to obtain knowledge, and converting what faith we have into knowledge?

And who exactly do you think can give you true knowledge? And what do you need to contact God to learn from Him?

 

[Valjean]

Faith is like fire, it can burn you down, but at the same time all life depends on it. You can't have light without the fire.

So faith is an oxidation phenomenon?
I've never heard the term used in this sense.

Ok.
Let me elaborate on what you say, in my view.
Truth leads to knowledge, then to understanding, then to belief. This is faith.
Probably somewhat equivalent to what you said.

Faith is a subcategory of belief. It's poorly evidenced belief. With more evidence it can become knowledge.

 

[Valjean]

My analogy is the sun. It is a big ball of fire, but we get light and heat from it.
In the middle of winter in the northern regions, you get a lot of light, but little heat. So nothing grows. Everything lies dormant. Like us, if we have the light of wisdom, but no warmth of love, we cannot produce fruit, we’re dormant.
And in the heat of summer in the tropical regions, we find vast deserts. Like us, if we have goodwill in our hearts, but lack wisdom, how fruitful can we be.
It’s a balance of the two. And they must both be there.

You're speaking in allegories. How is the term objectively defined?

Faith is the basis of all knowledge. Without faith you could never learn. Faith alone could never lead you astray. It is faith unsubstantiated that people act on that leads people astray.

Huh? Knowledge based on ignorance? I thought it was based on knowledge or evidence.

Why can one not learn without unsupported belief? Shouldn't belief be provisional, pending adequate evidence?
Faith can never lead one astray? Hasn't mankind made all sorts of bad decisions based on faith; on guesswork?
What is "faith unsubstantiated?" All faith is unsubstantiated, by definition. If it were substantiated it would no longer be faith.

 

[Valjean]

And who exactly do you think can give you true knowledge?

We have only ourselves as research partners. The most productive investigational technique we've discovered is the scientific method.

And what do you need to contact God to learn from Him?

This, of course, presupposes the existence of a god or gods. Moreover, it seems to assume a particular sort of god -- anthropomorphic, male, and didactic.

In my tradition, knowledge of "god" involves neurological disruption.

 

[Valjean]

People seem to be talking about "faith" as some sort of magical, religious force; an intangible, mystical "stuff,"
On a poetry DIR this would be very creative, but the subject can only really be dealt with by a serious ontological and epistemic discussion.

 

[stvdv]

I like the OP

Where does it come from?

My thoughts: From the good works that we do

Agreed. Self Effort is of paramount importance

So, I see faith alone as an evil insanity created by the Devil to lead people astray

If I have full faith in God AND put all my worries in His Hands, I have full faith that He will look after me.

My Master told me this, and other Masters said the same "The Guru/Master will take care of you, until you can take care of yourself". No place for any Devil in this view. To believe in Devil also, means 'Half Faith in God' + 'Half Faith in Devil'. Not my choice. I go for the 100%, not the 50%

Makes people believe that they don’t actually have to DO anything.

Full Faith means Fully Surrender to God
I do not call that 'DO nothing'
I call it 'DO 100%'

Also, can we do anything to obtain faith, or is out of our hands?

What say you?

Self Effort is Paramount, but as God created us and everything else, I see it all as 'His Grace'

 

[Valjean]

Our reason - from which we obtain knowledge of the world - is a reflection of the rational nature of the Creator. There is no knowledge apart from Him.

I don't understand. This doesn't seem to make sense. Our knowledge of the world comes from science, not religion. We've always had religion, but it never improved human welfare, technology, or our understanding of the mechanisms of the world.
"Our reason?" This is mathematics; a sort of Boolian algebra, isn't it? I'm not even sure what "A reflection of the rational nature of the creator" means.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Where does it come from?
My thoughts: From the good works that we do.
Also, can we do anything to obtain faith, or is out of our hands?

From ignorance and fear in most cases, by analysis in some.
Good and bad works have nothing to do with faith.
It is basically out of our hands. If we are ignorant, then we will choose faith on false premises. If we are of analytical bent, then we will have faith on what has proof.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Where does it come from?


My thoughts: From the good works that we do. So, I see faith alone as an evil insanity created by the Devil to lead people astray. Makes people believe that they don’t actually have to DO anything.


Also, can we do anything to obtain faith, or is out of our hands?

What say you?

You're kinda weird.

Faith is a universalized need. Humans actually crave something to believe in. I think Dawkins wrote The God Delusion, but the one having a delusion is him. Left to their own devices, even atheists always always find something to worship, whether luck or the state or nihilism (death).

 

[james bond]

For me faith came to me as a child because of the beauty and complexity I saw in the world and how it was interrelated. I was too young to understand beauty and complexity, but I knew someone had created this. If it doesn't come naturally, then one has to realize the explanation of your worldview has to be explained in detail so you understand. There has to be simplicity in the message even though it is complex. You have to see underneath the beauty to understand whether it is true to you or not. We have intuition and with faith, God will reveal himself to us. I didn't understand the Bible, so just read and understood what I could. I just put aside that which I didn't understand or thought wasn't right.

The funny thing is as I grew up, I ignored the Bible and studied evolution. Evolution was what was taught and many believed. We are also inundated by it beliefs in the news. That was when I thought it was strange. Why keep repeating that which we know as facts? Around 2007 - 2011, there were many articles that came out against evolution. There were many pieces that didn't fit. Then around 2012, I became a born again Christian and was baptized. Then, I started to read the Bible seriously and finally was able to receive and accept its teachings.

Thus, you have to verify the Bible's teachings so you can accept it in your worldview. You have to trust it is the truth and then through this simple act of faith, God will reveal himself to you. There will be many things that you can't or won't accept at first, but you just have to put those aside or put them in the back of your mind. You'll be able to come back to it later. Just read the parts that are easy like Psalms or that you can accept.

 

[Native]

My thoughts: From the good works that we do. So, I see faith alone as an evil insanity created by the Devil to lead people astray. Makes people believe that they don’t actually have to DO anything.

"Faith" in religious terms, is generally "the absence of natural explanations" and is often confused for "hope".
The evil part of "faith" comes into play when religion is used in order to govern the population via an invented fear - or in politics when used to promise participants heavenly gifts if they dies in war.
The most evil (and stupid) part is of course when wars are based on the religious misconception that "our God is better than yours and our land is the only promised land".

"God" is completely indifferent over the human stupidity and of course, if humans are causing idiotic things, humans themselves have to deal with the results from their own stupidity

 

[Valjean]

For me faith came to me as a child because of the beauty and complexity I saw in the world and how it was interrelated. I was too young to understand beauty and complexity, but I knew someone had created this.

You felt someone had created this.

....You have to see underneath the beauty to understand whether it is true to you or not.

Whether what is true or not?

The funny thing is as I grew up, I ignored the Bible and studied evolution. Evolution was what was taught and many believed. We are also inundated by it beliefs in the news. That was when I thought it was strange. Why keep repeating that which we know as facts?

Not following. What repetition are you talking about?

Around 2007 - 2011, there were many articles that came out against evolution. There were many pieces that didn't fit.

So you failed to see through the propaganda and invented problems?

Thus, you have to verify the Bible's teachings so you can accept it in your worldview. You have to trust it is the truth and then through this simple act of faith, God will reveal himself to you.

But how are you verifying it? Verification isn't synonymous with belief or faith. Believing strongly in something doesn't verify it.
"Trust in the truth? ...act of faith?" People of a hundred faiths do this all over the world, and come up with a hundred contradictory beliefs.

No. Faith is unsubstantiated belief. Truth is discerned by observation, critical analysis and testing. Feelings have nothing to do with it.
Truth may not be comfortable or psychologically satisfying, like religion; it may not be the ticket to a fellowship of supporters, but it's consistent with the evidence.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Whoa!

I just re-read your post for the 3rd time, and suddenly realized what you are aiming to say to us!

What a different meaning!

It wasn't a easy to understand wording. Now I get it you mean the faith- without-works (or maybe better!-- "faith without fruits") problem.

I thought you were saying something like 'faith is the source of evil' or some such anti-religious screed.

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Yes, that faith-and-no-good works idea that faith saves without there ever being any clear result/outcome/evidence of that faith in someone's life, no fruits -- absence of "love one another" love, forgiving, and more...

That new twist is sorta like a bad 'prosperity gospel', turning the aim of the gospel on its head, canceling the gospel.

We are saved to do good works Paul wrote. It's great to get all 3 verses of the famous quote:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 2 NIV
(or even better, all 10 verses)

Very nicely said.
I’m glad to reread my (somewhat difficult to read post)