Faith

[We Never Know]

That's not especially relevant to this discussion, in my opinion. A person can be a better human being and yet have erroneous beliefs.

And a person can have the right belief and not be a better person. If a person believes, what they do with that belief defines who they are in my opinion.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's not especially relevant to this discussion, in my opinion. A person can be a better human being and yet have erroneous beliefs.

I few people i seen seem to think if a person has different belief than them selvs, that person is more or less evil...but how do they know if a person is evil just based on their faith?

 

[Truthseeker]

If they make a claim about their deity which is contradictory with other claims about their deity and they say both of these things are true then I would say their god does not exist. In other words, the claims based on their faith are BS.

What does God have to do with it? There is one God, there are not two Gods. Conflicting beliefs about God means they don't understand God. But then, who does understand God? But I do understand that the fact that no one understands God doesn't mean having conflicting ideas about God would be acceptable for us.

 

[Truthseeker]

I few people i seen seem to think if a person has different belief than them selvs, that person is more or less evil...but how do they know if a person is evil just based on their faith?

Yeah, that's true, but I'm not sure if you are disagreeing or agreeing with me.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Yeah, that's true, but I'm not sure if you are disagreeing or agreeing with me.

If a person believer or non believers alike has good action,speech and thoughts they are good IMHO.
If a person believers or non-believers alike has bad action, speech and thoughts they are not good people.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Being faith is on a personal level/personal experience,, How can a person without faith tell others they are wrong, argue, or debate about something they don't have or experience?

If someone were a carpenter and someone else who knew nothing about carpentry tried to tell them what is what about carpentry, why would they even listen to them?

The main problem I see with faith as such is the issue of setting the beliefs one might have (as to the faith) above criticism, and which is why we often have problems with blasphemy laws and/or harsh punishments for such in some countries. It just seems such an obvious contrivance to make one's beliefs beyond criticism (being part of one's faith), even when applicable to a worshipped and no doubt loved creator, so it is more about the beliefs associated with faith than anything else. Since it seems almost impossible to have any faith (of the religious variety) without an appropriate set of beliefs attached - and these often affecting the lives of others with no such faith and no such beliefs.

So it is not about telling others they are wrong but more about being able to discuss/argue/criticise on a level playing field.

 

[ChristineM]

Being faith is on a personal level/personal experience,, How can a person without faith tell others they are wrong, argue, or debate about something they don't have or experience?

If someone were a carpenter and someone else who knew nothing about carpentry tried to tell them what is what about carpentry, why would they even listen to them?

I think you will find most people lacking religious faith are ex religious people so yes, they do have experience of what religious faith.

And of course everyone holds faith in certain things, for example, i have faith that i can cross the road without some idiot with a speed fetish mowing me down.

 

[oldbadger]

Knowing truth is it's own good end to me, doesn't need the justification of aggression for anyone to go at getting it.

This thread is about faith, not truth.

Very few folks have certitude, but when they do it often leads to megalomania and arrogance because only they can be right, they think.

 

[Audie]

Being faith is on a personal level/personal experience,, How can a person without faith tell others they are wrong, argue, or debate about something they don't have or experience?

If someone were a carpenter and someone else who knew nothing about carpentry tried to tell them what is what about carpentry, why would they even listen to them?

For some reason we listen to people with faith
that evolution and deep time are satans lies.

Even try to lead them out of their confusion.

The carpenter though might use bad words

 

[Clara Tea]

Being faith is on a personal level/personal experience,, How can a person without faith tell others they are wrong, argue, or debate about something they don't have or experience?

If someone were a carpenter and someone else who knew nothing about carpentry tried to tell them what is what about carpentry, why would they even listen to them?

Certainly you cannot dispute the existence of Santa Claus, Fred Flintstone, the tooth fairy, leprechauns, witches, goblins, et al. After all, you have no experience meeting them.

You can, however, view a volcano, and view the lava. Therefore, you must toss delicious food into the volcano to appease the volcano God and select the most desirable and beautiful virgin (woman, I presume) to toss into the volcano, and watch her burn to death, because you can tangibly see the volcano, and must appease the volcano God.

You can see amazing technology, assume that it must be from reverse engineered alien (Martian?) technology, and therefore you have tangible proof that aliens exist (that is, you are holding your iphone, and that proves that aliens exist).

So, it isn't about atheists who dispute your information, it is about your system of belief.

Atheists have a high bar for accepting Gods. Theists have a low bar for accepting Gods.

My friend, standing on a rock pile, found a rock, and proclaimed that it is proof of God (rather low standards to accept some monumental system of believe).

 

[Clara Tea]

For some reason we listen to people with faith
that evolution and deep time are satans lies.

Even try to lead them out of their confusion.

The carpenter though might use bad words

DNA is sufficient for proof in courts. Yet, theists will argue that DNA doesn't prove evolution.

Scientists proved that mankind's influence causes Global Warming, but President George W. Bush's lawyers re-wrote the United States environmental report (prompting the resignation of the woman who was in charge of writing it), and promoting lies about Global Warming. The report had claimed that the intensity of Hurricane Katrina was a result of mankind's influence on Global Warming. Global Warming could kill all life on earth, but theists believe that they will be raptured to heaven, leaving behind a toxic cess pool behind them. But, the belief of theists impacts everyone's planet, not just those who believe they will go to heaven.

Theists lie for Jesus.

 

[Clara Tea]

This thread is about faith, not truth.

Very few folks have certitude, but when they do it often leads to megalomania and arrogance because only they can be right, they think.

It also leads to wars.

US troops in Iraq constantly live with the lie that they are defending America. Yet, the terrorist attack on America (911 attack) had nothing at all to do with Iraq, and that was proven after the war.

There is a vast difference between defensive behavior and offensive behavior. It takes patience to pursue peace. One must not bear false witness against a potential enemy. One must seek out new friends and allies, rather than make unprovoked wars and tell the world that we are defending ourselves.

 

[Clara Tea]

For some reason we listen to people with faith
that evolution and deep time are satans lies.

Even try to lead them out of their confusion.

The carpenter though might use bad words

I suspect that the Norse God, Thor, was a carpenter, and when he accidentally hit his thumb with his well known hammer, his thumb was Thor (sore), and he might have used bad words.

 

[Clara Tea]

Lets say you believe in a god with faith. You also believe by faith said god is guiding you.
If i called you full of ****, would that be rational?

Atheists don't want to insult you. Insults are called ad hoc arguments. Rather, they use logic and facts to assert their opinions, and they don't want to leap to a conclusion (such as "God exists") unless they have facts and logic to prove it.

That is the essential difference between atheists and theists. One uses facts and logic, while the other uses faith (perhaps a feeling that they are on the right track, or perhaps they follow the same religion that their father, grandfather, and great grandfather followed).

It is easy to guess wrong.

What would happen if you chose the wrong God? Isn't the real God jealous? Didn't God say that one must not worship any other God? Didn't God say that one must not make an icon (graven image) (like a golden lamb) and worship it?

If you guessed wrong, you will go to hell.

Christians fault Jews for not converting to Christianity. The Christian and Muslim religions spun off of the Jewish religion. It stands to reason that the God of the Jews is the same as the God of the Christians and God of the Muslims. Why, then, is there so much difference in the bibles? If we are all God's children, shouldn't we all believe in the same faith?

 

[Clara Tea]

Some claim experience has given them faith. How are you going to prove them wrong?

The carpenter was a anology, if you don't know anything about it, how can you say anyone is wrong?

How can anyone do work on behalf of God? Isn't your God all powerful? Can't he do everything? Perhaps the fact that God doesn't lift a finger or answer prayers is a clue that he doesn't exist?

 

[wellwisher]

Faith is connected to using the most evolved parts of the human brain; thalamus and frontal lobe. Animals can use their sensory systems often better than humans; seeing is believing. They react to sensory input and not to visions. These parts of the brain are more ancient, which makes them more accessible to all.

The more advanced parts of the brain are harder for animals to utilize. Faith is designed to exercise these more advanced parts of the brain. They detach one from the sensory systems, so one will need to learn to swim with these other parts of the brain.

All innovation, that has advance civilization, comes from these advanced parts of the brain. Humans did not discover the first iPhone, growing on trees with their sensory systems, as they wandered and gathered. It began with a person's faith in a vision not yet seen by the eyes of anyone, including Apple. The vision had to be dumbed down; sent to material realty, so the animal brain of the majority; sensory based, could see it to believe in it.

God is a type of asymptotic phenomena that exists beyond the senses. This is why science cannot see it to believe it. Jesus said this is an evil and adulterous generation looking for a sign; want to see it with the ancient brain. But no sign will be given.

God needs to be seen and felt though the inner vision of faith without any translation link to the animal brain. This exercise bothers those who can only use the animal brain. They forget that all their sensory expertise was once based on the faith of the discoverer who dumbed it down for them.

 

[Audie]

Atheists don't want to insult you. Insults are called ad hoc arguments. Rather, they use logic and facts to assert their opinions, and they don't want to leap to a conclusion (such as "God exists") unless they have facts and logic to prove it.

That is the essential difference between atheists and theists. One uses facts and logic, while the other uses faith (perhaps a feeling that they are on the right track, or perhaps they follow the same religion that their father, grandfather, and great grandfather followed).

It is easy to guess wrong.

What would happen if you chose the wrong God? Isn't the real God jealous? Didn't God say that one must not worship any other God? Didn't God say that one must not make an icon (graven image) (like a golden lamb) and worship it?

If you guessed wrong, you will go to hell.

Christians fault Jews for not converting to Christianity. The Christian and Muslim religions spun off of the Jewish religion. It stands to reason that the God of the Jews is the same as the God of the Christians and God of the Muslims. Why, then, is there so much difference in the bibles? If we are all God's children, shouldn't we all believe in the same faith?

Id notmess with somrones faith in whatever god, thats very unsuitable.

Faith in some peripheral things, like noahs ark,
that are contrary to all evidence are fair game.

FTM- the creationists routinely start threads
to attack what they amusiungly equivocate
as " greater faith" in science!

 

[Clara Tea]

The word 'faith', and even belief, are both words that are more verb-like than that, (in the sense of signifying an orienting action) and thus are more tool-like, it my opinion. In your idea of what these words are, and the way you use them, you don't believe that they direct you toward a claim? A claim is something you can state. The second step is to reach for it, with either faith or rational examination. I can't really imagine a different way to understand it

Verbs show actions. Yet, those with faith could be passive, and only go to church (which isn't really much action). They should be going to hospitals to help the sick, helping feed the hungry and shelter and clothe the homeless. Look at all of the homeless, and consider how shameful it is to be in a Christian society that doesn't allocate some resources to help them.

Some of the homeless are shooed away from cities, where they can't collect cans to pay for food. Their meager possessions are often tossed into the trash (including family pictures, and social security cards which would allow them to get money).

In order to follow Jesus, one must do the things that Jesus would have done. The Religious Right fights for 2nd Amendment gun rights and the National Rifle Association (which has the pope on their enemies list because he is a man of peace). The Religious Right put in presidents that had the Iran Contra scandal (supporting a Contra dictator, arming Iran, and paying for it all with counterfeit US currency and narcotics sold on the streets of the United States). Maxine Waters raised a lot of objections because most of those narcotics were sold to Blacks in the inner cities.

The Religious Right put in President Ronald Reagan who took away one of the vegetables from school lunches, claiming that catsup was a vegetable. Programs to help the poor, under Reagan, were scrapped, as Reagan urged churches to donate more, made tax breaks for the middle class and wealthy to donate to the poor (helped the rich far more than the poor), and made the Thousand Points of Light campaign. Bush's vice president, Dan Quayle, was called "one dim bulb" in that campaign.

Governor Reagan ordered police to bash heads of war protestors.

So, you see, that the Religious Right has not only been passive on issues that Jesus would approve, but they actively (verb) fought against Jesus.

Jesus cured the sick, but the Religious Right fought against universal health care (Obamacare).

President W. Bush made unprovoked wars against Iraq and Afghanistan (to catch the al Qaeda, presumably). Yet, the Taliban were cooperating with Bush at the beginning (capture bin Laden and his aides).

Christians should be up in arms over the violent and corrupt decisions that were made on their behalf.

 

[Audie]

Faith is connected to using the most evolved parts of the human brain; thalamus and frontal lobe. Animals can use their sensory systems often better than humans; seeing is believing. They react to sensory input and not to visions. These parts of the brain are more ancient, which makes them more accessible to all.

The more advanced parts of the brain are harder for animals to utilize. Faith is designed to exercise these more advanced parts of the brain. They detach one from the sensory systems, so one will need to learn to swim with these other parts of the brain.

All innovation, that has advance civilization, comes from these advanced parts of the brain. Humans did not discover the first iPhone, growing on trees with their sensory systems, as they wandered and gathered. It began with a person's faith in a vision not yet seen by the eyes of anyone, including Apple. The vision had to be dumbed down; sent to material realty, so the animal brain of the majority; sensory based, could see it to believe in it.

God is a type of asymptotic phenomena that exists beyond the senses. This is why science cannot see it to believe it. Jesus said this is an evil and adulterous generation looking for a sign; want to see it with the ancient brain. But no sign will be given.

God needs to be seen and felt though the inner vision of faith without any translation link to the animal brain. This exercise bothers those who can only use the animal brain. They forget that all their sensory expertise was once based on the faith of the discoverer who dumbed it down for them.

Seems like faith functions to avoid or prevent thought. See faith in noahs ark.

 

[Clara Tea]

Faith is connected to using the most evolved parts of the human brain; thalamus and frontal lobe. Animals can use their sensory systems often better than humans; seeing is believing. They react to sensory input and not to visions. These parts of the brain are more ancient, which makes them more accessible to all.

The more advanced parts of the brain are harder for animals to utilize. Faith is designed to exercise these more advanced parts of the brain. They detach one from the sensory systems, so one will need to learn to swim with these other parts of the brain.

All innovation, that has advance civilization, comes from these advanced parts of the brain. Humans did not discover the first iPhone, growing on trees with their sensory systems, as they wandered and gathered. It began with a person's faith in a vision not yet seen by the eyes of anyone, including Apple. The vision had to be dumbed down; sent to material realty, so the animal brain of the majority; sensory based, could see it to believe in it.

God is a type of asymptotic phenomena that exists beyond the senses. This is why science cannot see it to believe it. Jesus said this is an evil and adulterous generation looking for a sign; want to see it with the ancient brain. But no sign will be given.

God needs to be seen and felt though the inner vision of faith without any translation link to the animal brain. This exercise bothers those who can only use the animal brain. They forget that all their sensory expertise was once based on the faith of the discoverer who dumbed it down for them.

Doctor Who said "one good hope is worth a cartload of certainties."

Faith might not be from advanced thinking or better sensing. It might be a fantasy.

There are some who do sense psychic messages from God. They objected to the war in Iraq (and said the same things that Revelation said about it). Yet, no one listened. Warmongers openly defied God (thou shalt not kill....turn the other cheek).

It is easy to follow the wrong God or wrong faith.

Look for the trail of blood, because that is the trail that leads to Satan. Look for the trail of greed (lowering taxes for the rich), because that is the trail that leads to Satan. Look for the trail that ignores the homeless, because that is the trail that leads to Satan.

God punishes (perhaps with eternal flames of hell) those who defy him and kill.