Faith

[Ceridwen018]

LCMS,

Faith is a gift freely given to us via the Holy Spirit found in Holy Scripture. While all are offered faith when they hear and read the Word of God, some can refuse it so not all have faith.

Lets try to keep things as non-metaphorical as possible, so no one gets confused. Faith is not something which can be 'given' or which can be 'found'. Faith is a state of mind. When one reads the bible, they can either choose to believe it or not, aka, they can have faith in it or not. The bible is pretty much the only tangible evidence we have for god, and even it must be ruled out due to its circular reasoning. Therefore, in order to believe in god, we must be willing to accept blind faith. If one is especially moved by the bible, and if they feel that the bible has touched them and given them deep feelings, they will probably choose to have faith.

This is where my argument comes in. How can you justify 'deep feelings' as evidence for god? If my uncle claimed to have 'deep feelings' that he was Abraham Lincoln, he would be comitted. If I knew 'deep down' that I had fairy blood, and that on my 18th birthday all the woodland peoples would carry me off to be their queen, you would think that I was out of my mind! How is belief in the bible any different? There is just as much evidence.

Another point: Think of all the people in the past who have had 'great faith' in things which have been proven wrong. Flat earth, anyone? Sun revolving around the earth, anyone? People's faith in these ideas was so strong, they KILLED all who opposed them! How about the ancient Egyptians? I can guarentee you that they had just as much 'faith' in their gods as you do in yours. They claimed to talk to their gods and see their gods perform miracles just like you do. They even had doctrine and myths, like a creation story, etc.--just like you. What makes them wrong and you right?

Bottom line? You would say that 'faith is enough', but obvioulsy, for all of those Egyptians burning in hell right now (I am assuming that you believe all who do not believe in Jesus go to hell--set me straight if I'm wrong), it certainly was not.

 

[Runt]

If this is true why try to learn anything? I believe that while many of the principles in both science and religion may be incorrect, progress has brought us closer to an ultimate truth. And if there is no truth how can there be purpose?

Actually, "human progress" (science) is proving the concept of any "static truth" basically incorrect. Quantum physics in particular is proving that reality itself is basically just a possibility-- multiple potential positions of matter, for example... apparently it has now been proven in labratories that matter can be in two places at once--and that the nature of reality is actually slightly dependent on the observer (this is, of course, veering off slightly into philosophy, but the basis is in quantum physics).

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

"Lets try to keep things as non-metaphorical as possible, so no one gets confused. Faith is not something which can be 'given' or which can be 'found'. Faith is a state of mind. When one reads the bible, they can either choose to believe it or not, aka, they can have faith in it or not."- Ceridwen

Faith cannot be found, it can only be given. To say that faith is found would represent decision theology where we can accept God into our lives. This would say that there is a human aspect in salvation. This is not possible, because God does all that is required for our salvation with Christ's death on the cross. We cannot possibly as sinful beings accept Christ's love. Christ gives His gift of salvation to us through faith. This faith comes from the Holy Spirit and is given to everyone. The only thing that one can do is refuse faith. Faith is yours unless you refuse it. Again, you try apply logical reasoning to the spiritual Ceridwen. In the end, faith is as miraculous and shrouded in mystery as the things that it explains and inspires belief in.

 

[Gunnard]

I've heard that we're just a shadow of the fourth dimension, forgot where I heard that.

 

[Brien]

LCMS,

To say that faith is found would represent decision theology where we can accept God into our lives.

I assume you hold more of a Calvinistic view on human capacity. I used to maintain a very similar perspective. I changed my mind about this for a few reasons though. My main objection is how could a loving God punish someone for not doing something they are incapable of doing. Also, if faith is forced upon us, I don't see why God would bother to make us. But by taking a risk of rejection and giving us a choice to do evil, he also increases our capacity to do good. The way I see it, having faith must be a choice or our concept of a just and loving God is all wrong.

you try apply logical reasoning to the spiritual

If you don't mind, I would like you to elaborate on this because I don't entirely understand what you meant. Many apologetic writers have shed some light on the doctrine of Christianity using logical reasoning.


Ceridwen018,

How can you justify 'deep feelings' as evidence for god? [...] How is belief in the bible any different?

Belief in the Bible and belief in God are two very different topics. There is some evidence for the New Testament being historically accurate, but I think that's a little off topic right now.

There are some arguments for believing in God as well. One of them is known as the anthropological argument, which attempts to rationalize the existence of God using the personal nature of human beings. Humans are personal beings characterized by self-awareness, reasoning, love, morality, and meaning. Either our environment is compatible with these personal attributes as it is compatible with our physical attributes (e.g.: we have hunger; there is food) or it is not. If a personal God does exist, then it explains where these attributes came from and why virtually every civilization that has ever existed has felt the need to create some sort of deity. If a god does not exist, how could these attributes have formed? For this reason I would say it takes just as much faith to believe that life formed through random mutation as it takes to believe in God.

 

[Brien]

Actually, "human progress" (science) is proving the concept of any "static truth" basically incorrect. Quantum physics in particular is proving that reality itself is basically just a possibility-- multiple potential positions of matter, for example... apparently it has now been proven in labratories that matter can be in two places at once--and that the nature of reality is actually slightly dependent on the observer

In the words of Ayn Rand, "Reality, the external world, exists independent of man’s consciousness, independent of any observer’s knowledge, beliefs, feelings, desires or fears."

As far as quantum physics goes, concepts like particle distribution are only theories to explain various anomalies. They will remain incomplete presupposition until they are reconciled with the laws of Newtonian physics.

Also, Aristotle showed in his Law of Identity that everything that exists must have a specific nature. To have an identity means a single identity; an object cannot have two identities. An entity without an identity cannot exist because it would be nothing. To exist is to exist as something, and that means to exist with a particular identity.

I hope this clears up a little bit of what I think.

 

[Brien]

Sorry it double posted so I deleted this one.