Faithlessness in Chr-stianity

[Messianic Israelite]

Thank you. It’s probably better we don’t get into debating, but agree to disagree. I will say that I Do Not consider the Law to be done away with, so I have no disagreement with those scriptures at all. I believe that all who are outside of Christ are under the Law.

Hi. I am curious. So if you do not believe that the Law has not been done away with, as Matthew 5:17-20 says, remind me why you don't believe in keeping the commandments such as the dietary laws, the moral laws, the holy days, the seventh day Sabbath etc.

 

[InChrist]

Hi. I am curious. So if you do not believe that the Law has not been done away with, as Matthew 5:17-20 says, remind me why you don't believe in keeping the commandments such as the dietary laws, the moral laws, the holy days, the seventh day Sabbath etc.

Because Jesus Christ has fulfilled all the dietary, holy day, Sabbath laws on behalf of me and all who are born again in Him. I believe those were shadows and symbolic of completion in Christ.


So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Colossians 2:16-17

It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Hebrews 9:9-11



As far as moral laws go, I think for myself or those who belong to Christ walking in newness of life there is no desire to be immoral, but to live a life pleasing Him. If and when a Christian falls and sins, yet is truly convicted by the Holy Spirit, confesses and repents we have an Advocate and Savior.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thank you. It’s probably better we don’t get into debating, but agree to disagree. I will say that I Do Not consider the Law to be done away with, so I have no disagreement with those scriptures at all. I believe that all who are outside of Christ are under the Law.

Hello friend. I appreciate your devotion.

I'm sure you understand that the 613 laws were given to Israel, not the world. And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak to the Children of Israel. He didn't say the Moabites or Jebusites. He didn't say Europeans or Latinos. He said Israel.

This is why Jews say that you are not obligated to the 613. You can eat shrimp till you are stuffed, and not sin. You can mow your lawn on Saturday and not sin. There are only a very few universal laws, such as not murdering, stealing, committing adultery etc, that are binding on all the world.

 

[dybmh]

A space for members to discuss (not debate) various religious topics". But yes, if you truly want to discuss bushcraft,

First we establish common ground. Then we share our religious beliefs through the lens of those shared interests metaphorically. The common ground becomes the medium for discussing the similarities and possibly our differences in a non-confrontational manner.

That is inter-faith dialogue.

For example. Let's say that you and I disagree on religion. But we both like to fish. So, we go fishing together. And while we're fishing, it gives us an opportunity to discuss and share religious ideas, but in a sort of "fishing" context. Zooming in, a little closer? You want to talk about faith? Let's build a campfire together, and let's use it as a metaphor for cultivating faith.

That is how it's done, brother.

 

[sayak83]

I wasn’t going to post anything, but browsing on the ‘new posts’ category I saw very little I felt worthy enough to contribute to, especially because the main subject seems to be that of politics, which in our faith we do not get involved in, although we do speak out against all sin, which is the transgression of the Law. So with just 20 minutes to spare before I head out, I thought I’d write up an experience I had last week which I think is very telling of not only the faithlessness in this country (the United Kingdom) but also in other so-called Chr-stian countries and that is the complete lack of faith by Chr-stianity.

In doing a Bushcraft course last week, in the transport over to the location, a forest area located in north England, I got talking to one of the people who were assisting with the course. She was I estimate in her mid-50’s and as conversation goes, I tried to steer the conversation towards religion, rather than idle talk. She enquired about my faith, possibly because I had a t-shirt on displaying the Name of Yahweh on. I told her about the Assemblies of Yahweh, how we do not use titles for the Name of the Almighty, Yahweh and His Son Yahshua, or substitute or use names which are false representations of the Majesty on High. I also explained that we believe in keeping the commandments of Yahweh and showing faith in Yahshua. I explained we believe in the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) and New Testament and believe the Messiah came to show us the way to live and to offer His life for a blood-covering, a propitiation, for us, to give us the opportunity of having our sins covered and to walk in newness of life to life eternal. I asked about her religious background. She said she was a Chr-stian and that she attends Ch-rch probably every other week. We then discussed the spiritual state of the world, but I could tell from the lack of fervour or acknowledgement that this world is spiralling out of control, that her faith was somewhat lacking.

So I asked her, How would you feel if you your children left Chr-stianity, say, became a Muslim, or a Buddhist etc.? She said she wouldn’t mind as long as they are happy. I really was disgusted. Why are people even in a religion, if they do not believe it is the truth? And aren’t the children going to see that hypocrisy and become disillusioned and confused themselves? This is most likely why I feel Islam is making inroads in to this country at the rate that it is. Chr-stians, generally speaking, seem to have so little faith. I can’t even say they have any faith whatsoever. Many seem to want to get an ear-ticking at Ch-rch every so often and go on their merry way. In speaking to her, I got the impression that she just saw religion as a sort of community thing, nothing more, just a sort of social club, something to belong to. No actual dedication to doing what is right in Yahweh’s sight, or showing our love for Yahweh and Yahshua, His Son, who died for us so we might have a chance to be in His Kingdom.

Yes, I am not a Chr-stian. So why may you ask would I be appalled at a group which we consider to be in gross false doctrine anyway? Well, believe it or not, I still want to see people show faith in Yahweh, whether Jew or Chr-stian, most of all, to have a love for Yahweh because that love, if it is sincere, has the opportunity to take them from being in false doctrine to the truth, should they simply have enough love in their hearts for Yahweh to accept they were wrong. But there has to be a desire to do what is right in Yahweh’s sight. There has to be a belief in Yahweh.

She did change the subject because I feel she knew what I was getting at. If you claim to be religious, a Chr-stian, then why don’t you have any faith? Can you be religious and not have any faith? I think one can be, but that to me is just going through motions without having any real love for Yahweh and Yahshua. The efforts of those with such a faith are always going to serve Yahweh unwillingly or at best, half-heartedly.

For me, my faith is everything. It is everything. I am trying, nearly every day, to do something related to helping the Assemblies of Yahweh, or witnessing, or doing some good as pertaining to the Law and the positive commandments. It’s a very active and busy life that I lead. Not in the sense that I don’t have time to think. Some of the things I try to do each day is studying the Word, meditation (on the Word), singing and prayer. It is our opinion that Chr-stianity is a nebula of confusion and false doctrine, nonetheless, I do, just like with Judaism, want them to realize the zeal and the faith and the love that can come from accepting Yahshua our Savior and keeping the commandments.

It is not about what makes a person happy. Murder makes some people happy. It’s about, changing our mindset so we are orientated towards seeking the Kingdom of Yahweh and getting there, and on the way, doing everything we can to bring glory to the Name of Yahweh.

I’m running out of time here so I’ll just conclude by saying that although this was not always the case, a few years prior to my baptism and especially after, I have gotten great enjoyment, like nothing else that I have experienced, from bringing glory to Yahweh’s Name, and from building up my faith. I get enjoyment from finding ways to depart from evil and doing good, because it is in those moments that we show and can prove our love for Yahweh. Proverbs 10:23 says: “It is as sport to a fool to do wickedness: and so is wisdom to a man of understanding.”

There is so much more that I would like to say on this topic but my time has run out, nonetheless, I want to say that even those who call themselves Chr-stians in this country, I think that many really don’t have any faith really at all, and that’s because, they have rejected Yahweh, His Word, Yahshua, the Word that became flesh and the commandments of Yahweh, which intend on keeping us in the love of Yahweh.

I hope these things are considered by all. May Yahweh bless.

Any reason why you posted this in the interfaith discussion? Based on your posts, you are not open to the possibility of ideas from other faiths and ideologies at all. So what do you want to discuss with people of other faith traditions in this thread...about blaming how they are corrupting Christians??

 

[InChrist]

Hello friend. I appreciate your devotion.

I'm sure you understand that the 613 laws were given to Israel, not the world. And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak to the Children of Israel. He didn't say the Moabites or Jebusites. He didn't say Europeans or Latinos. He said Israel.

This is why Jews say that you are not obligated to the 613. You can eat

Hello friend. I appreciate your devotion.

I'm sure you understand that the 613 laws were given to Israel, not the world. And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak to the Children of Israel. He didn't say the Moabites or Jebusites. He didn't say Europeans or Latinos. He said Israel.

This is why Jews say that you are not obligated to the 613. You can eat shrimp till you are stuffed, and not sin. You can mow your lawn on Saturday and not sin. There are only a very few universal laws, such as not murdering, stealing, committing adultery etc, that are binding on all the world.

Yes, I understand the 613 laws were given specifically for Israel. I believe Jesus Christ, as a Jew, kept the entire law perfectly. So from my perspective anyone who is born again and is dependent on Jesus as their Savior is not required to keep these laws, including Jews who place their faith in Christ. Everyone is under God’s divine moral law which I believe is stamped on each person’s conscience concerning right and wrong.
Just my thoughts.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, I understand the 613 laws were given specifically for Israel. I believe Jesus Christ, as a Jew, kept the entire law perfectly. So from my perspective anyone who is born again and is dependent on Jesus as their Savior is not required to keep these laws, including Jews who place their faith in Christ. Everyone is under God’s divine moral law which I believe is stamped on each person’s conscience concerning right and wrong.
Just my thoughts.

It really doesn't work that way.
Deut 24:16
Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

No one can be responsible for your sins but you. No one can obey God on your behalf. All of that is on you.

 

[Regiomontanus]

I wasn’t going to post anything, but browsing on the ‘new posts’ category I saw very little I felt worthy enough to contribute to, especially because the main subject seems to be that of politics, which in our faith we do not get involved in, although we do speak out against all sin, which is the transgression of the Law. So with just 20 minutes to spare before I head out, I thought I’d write up an experience I had last week which I think is very telling of not only the faithlessness in this country (the United Kingdom) but also in other so-called Chr-stian countries and that is the complete lack of faith by Chr-stianity.

In doing a Bushcraft course last week, in the transport over to the location, a forest area located in north England, I got talking to one of the people who were assisting with the course. She was I estimate in her mid-50’s and as conversation goes, I tried to steer the conversation towards religion, rather than idle talk. She enquired about my faith, possibly because I had a t-shirt on displaying the Name of Yahweh on. I told her about the Assemblies of Yahweh, how we do not use titles for the Name of the Almighty, Yahweh and His Son Yahshua, or substitute or use names which are false representations of the Majesty on High. I also explained that we believe in keeping the commandments of Yahweh and showing faith in Yahshua. I explained we believe in the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) and New Testament and believe the Messiah came to show us the way to live and to offer His life for a blood-covering, a propitiation, for us, to give us the opportunity of having our sins covered and to walk in newness of life to life eternal. I asked about her religious background. She said she was a Chr-stian and that she attends Ch-rch probably every other week. We then discussed the spiritual state of the world, but I could tell from the lack of fervour or acknowledgement that this world is spiralling out of control, that her faith was somewhat lacking.

So I asked her, How would you feel if you your children left Chr-stianity, say, became a Muslim, or a Buddhist etc.? She said she wouldn’t mind as long as they are happy. I really was disgusted. Why are people even in a religion, if they do not believe it is the truth? And aren’t the children going to see that hypocrisy and become disillusioned and confused themselves? This is most likely why I feel Islam is making inroads in to this country at the rate that it is. Chr-stians, generally speaking, seem to have so little faith. I can’t even say they have any faith whatsoever. Many seem to want to get an ear-ticking at Ch-rch every so often and go on their merry way. In speaking to her, I got the impression that she just saw religion as a sort of community thing, nothing more, just a sort of social club, something to belong to. No actual dedication to doing what is right in Yahweh’s sight, or showing our love for Yahweh and Yahshua, His Son, who died for us so we might have a chance to be in His Kingdom.

Yes, I am not a Chr-stian. So why may you ask would I be appalled at a group which we consider to be in gross false doctrine anyway? Well, believe it or not, I still want to see people show faith in Yahweh, whether Jew or Chr-stian, most of all, to have a love for Yahweh because that love, if it is sincere, has the opportunity to take them from being in false doctrine to the truth, should they simply have enough love in their hearts for Yahweh to accept they were wrong. But there has to be a desire to do what is right in Yahweh’s sight. There has to be a belief in Yahweh.

She did change the subject because I feel she knew what I was getting at. If you claim to be religious, a Chr-stian, then why don’t you have any faith? Can you be religious and not have any faith? I think one can be, but that to me is just going through motions without having any real love for Yahweh and Yahshua. The efforts of those with such a faith are always going to serve Yahweh unwillingly or at best, half-heartedly.

For me, my faith is everything. It is everything. I am trying, nearly every day, to do something related to helping the Assemblies of Yahweh, or witnessing, or doing some good as pertaining to the Law and the positive commandments. It’s a very active and busy life that I lead. Not in the sense that I don’t have time to think. Some of the things I try to do each day is studying the Word, meditation (on the Word), singing and prayer. It is our opinion that Chr-stianity is a nebula of confusion and false doctrine, nonetheless, I do, just like with Judaism, want them to realize the zeal and the faith and the love that can come from accepting Yahshua our Savior and keeping the commandments.

It is not about what makes a person happy. Murder makes some people happy. It’s about, changing our mindset so we are orientated towards seeking the Kingdom of Yahweh and getting there, and on the way, doing everything we can to bring glory to the Name of Yahweh.

I’m running out of time here so I’ll just conclude by saying that although this was not always the case, a few years prior to my baptism and especially after, I have gotten great enjoyment, like nothing else that I have experienced, from bringing glory to Yahweh’s Name, and from building up my faith. I get enjoyment from finding ways to depart from evil and doing good, because it is in those moments that we show and can prove our love for Yahweh. Proverbs 10:23 says: “It is as sport to a fool to do wickedness: and so is wisdom to a man of understanding.”

There is so much more that I would like to say on this topic but my time has run out, nonetheless, I want to say that even those who call themselves Chr-stians in this country, I think that many really don’t have any faith really at all, and that’s because, they have rejected Yahweh, His Word, Yahshua, the Word that became flesh and the commandments of Yahweh, which intend on keeping us in the love of Yahweh.

I hope these things are considered by all. May Yahweh bless.

Hello. I must ask, why the omission of the i ?

 

[InChrist]

It really doesn't work that way.
Deut 24:16
Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

No one can be responsible for your sins but you. No one can obey God on your behalf. All of that is on you.

While I definitely agree with personal responsibility and that I must choose to obey God myself. But I don’t think it is possible for finite human beings to pay the eternal cost of sin or achieve atonement with a Holy, Infinite, Eternal, Being. I believe the animals sacrifices (Genesis 8:20-21; Leviticus 4:35; 5:10) were only a temporary covering for sin which had to be continually repeated because these were symbolic shadows pointing to the the ultimate and perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I know you don’t see it that way, but that’s my perspective and what I believe to be the message and main point of the scriptures.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

While I definitely agree with personal responsibility and that I must choose to obey God myself. But I don’t think it is possible for finite human beings to pay the eternal cost of sin or achieve atonement with a Holy, Infinite, Eternal, Being. I believe the animals sacrifices (Genesis 8:20-21; Leviticus 4:35; 5:10) were only a temporary covering for sin which had to be continually repeated because these were symbolic shadows pointing to the the ultimate and perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I know you don’t see it that way, but that’s my perspective and what I believe to be the message and main point of the scriptures.

OMGosh. It's so very simple. When you sin, repent. There is nothing complicated about that. It doesn't require any blood offerings or human sacrifices or mediators between you and God. SIMPLE.

The righteous man stumbles seven times, and rises up again. Proverbs 24:16
Notice the one who is stumbling is called RIGHTEOUS because he repents.

Simple stuff.

 

[InChrist]

OMGosh. It's so very simple. When you sin, repent. There is nothing complicated about that. It doesn't require any blood offerings or human sacrifices or mediators between you and God. SIMPLE.

The righteous man stumbles seven times, and rises up again. Proverbs 24:16
Notice the one who is stumbling is called RIGHTEOUS because he repents.

Simple stuff.

So are you saying you don’t believe God instituted the sacrificial system in the OT?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So are you saying you don’t believe God instituted the sacrificial system in the OT?

You mean the sin offerings for unintentional sins? This was for the benefit of human mentality. That entire area of the world had a culture of sacrifices. It in no way means that God needs sacrifices. It has more to do with the need of people in that culture to make sacrifices.

There are other places in the Tanakh that clarify that its not sacrifices that God is interested in.

Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

In Psalm 51, David writes, "My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise."

When you read the story of Nathan confronting David, David says, "I have sinned." Does Nathan say, "Quick, let's run to the temple and make a sacrifice"? No, not at all. He tells David his sin is forgiven, without any sacrifice at all.

In Isaiah, it indicates that God is interested in goodness, not sacrifices. Isaiah calls out Israel for their failure to uphold justice and righteousness. This includes corruption, exploitation of the vulnerable, etc. God basically says to them, I don't want your stinking sacrifices. "Learn to do good, seek justice, strengthen the robbed, perform justice for the orphan, plead the case of the widow."

Here is my favorite:
Micah 6:6-8:
6: "With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old?"
7: "Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?"
8: "He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what the Lord requires of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God."


That is the God I know, that I love and adore, and whom I will worship all my life.

 

[InChrist]

You mean the sin offerings for unintentional sins? This was for the benefit of human mentality. That entire area of the world had a culture of sacrifices. It in no way means that God needs sacrifices. It has more to do with the need of people in that culture to make sacrifices.

There are other places in the Tanakh that clarify that its not sacrifices that God is interested in.

Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

In Psalm 51, David writes, "My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise."

When you read the story of Nathan confronting David, David says, "I have sinned." Does Nathan say, "Quick, let's run to the temple and make a sacrifice"? No, not at all. He tells David his sin is forgiven, without any sacrifice at all.

In Isaiah, it indicates that God is interested in goodness, not sacrifices. Isaiah calls out Israel for their failure to uphold justice and righteousness. This includes corruption, exploitation of the vulnerable, etc. God basically says to them, I don't want your stinking sacrifices. "Learn to do good, seek justice, strengthen the robbed, perform justice for the orphan, plead the case of the widow."

Here is my favorite:
Micah 6:6-8:
6: "With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old?"
7: "Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?"
8: "He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what the Lord requires of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God."


That is the God I know, that I love and adore, and whom I will worship all my life.

Basically, I agree that God does not desire or need sacrifices because they ultimately don’t change a person’s propensity to sin unintentionally or intentionally. That’s why I believe those OT sacrifices were pointing to Christ, who alone could change or transform one saved and submitted to Him.

I appreciate your love for a loving God.
I believe that the God YHWH revealed throughout the OT to Israel, came to earth and was revealed in the Person of Jesus Christ demonstrating His incredible love to all humanity.

Can you confirm something for me? I read that in the Hebrew language, the word חֶטְא (“sin”) literally means “to miss”… , is that the correct translation?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Basically, I agree that God does not desire or need sacrifices because they ultimately don’t change a person’s propensity to sin unintentionally or intentionally. That’s why I believe those OT sacrifices were pointing to Christ, who alone could change or transform one saved and submitted to Him.

The problem here is not that you agree with me on the sacrificial system in the Tanakh, although it is lovely to agree with you. The problem is that you believe Jesus was a sacrifice, indeed a necessary sacrifice. So you are still stuck on the idea that God needs a sacrifice in order to forgive us.

Can you confirm something for me? I read that in the Hebrew language, the word חֶטְא (“sin”) literally means “to miss”… , is that the correct translation?

My Hebrew stinks. I only known enough to be able to follow along in the Siddur. There are others in the forum who are fluent, including two Rabbis. But FWIW, this is what I have been taught. חֶטְא (“sin”) is actually an archer's term. It means to miss the mark. So think of a bullseye. Anything on or off the target that doesn't hit the bullseye is a sin.

 

[InChrist]

The problem here is not that you agree with me on the sacrificial system in the Tanakh, although it is lovely to agree with you. The problem is that you believe Jesus was a sacrifice, indeed a necessary sacrifice. So you are still stuck on the idea that God needs a sacrifice in order to forgive us.

My Hebrew stinks. I only known enough to be able to follow along in the Siddur. There are others in the forum who are fluent, including two Rabbis. But FWIW, this is what I have been taught. חֶטְא (“sin”) is actually an archer's term. It means to miss the mark. So think of a bullseye. Anything on or off the target that doesn't hit the bullseye is a sin.

So if sin is missing the mark or the bullseye and God is the Bullseye, then everyone misses because everyone sins in one way or another falling short of God’s perfection.
It makes perfect sense to me then, that Jesus is necessary as the perfect Lamb of God. I don’t see the sacrificial system of the Tanakh as meaningless or just some cultural practice, rather as an important symbolic system for ingraining into people’s awareness that the evil of sin must be put to death. I believe Jesus did that for us, as well He lived the perfect life so He did not miss the mark, then rose in victory over death offering His perfection to all so that we can all reach the Bullseye.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So if sin is missing the mark or the bullseye and God is the Bullseye,

Huh? We aren't trying to become God. We are trying to obey God -- big difference. The bullseye for any commandment is to keep it.

 

[InChrist]

Huh? We aren't trying to become God. We are trying to obey God -- big difference. The bullseye for any commandment is to keep it.

No, we’re not trying to become God, but my understanding is that we need atonement with God, to be one again in our relationship with God which has been broken by sin.

 

[InChrist]

Huh? We aren't trying to become God. We are trying to obey God -- big difference. The bullseye for any commandment is to keep it.

Just curious; do you think you keep all the commandments perfectly or will be able to at some point?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, we’re not trying to become God, but my understanding is that we need atonement with God, to be one again in our relationship with God which has been broken by sin.

It is a Christian doctrine that atonement is necessary. It is not the teaching of the Tanakh. The Tanakh teaches that what God REALLY wants is repentance and kindness. When we are not kind, God says, "I don't want your stinking sacrifices."

I'm not really here to get you to change your mind. I do understand that you have your own religion. I'm simply sharing a bit of mine.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Just curious; do you think you keep all the commandments perfectly or will be able to at some point?

I aspire to keep all that apply to me. Do I sometimes stumble? Yeap. And like the righteous man who stumbles in Proverbs 24:16, I rise up again.