Far-right thugs invade socialist book store in London

[ChristineM]

Flipping heck, used to fish the Ribble in Ribchester.
I'm from the rough end of Altrincham (Hence my name Alt - Fish) in Timperley. Still live there with wife and surrounded by family. I went to Alty Grammar in Bowden, many moons ago.

Very small world. Hub went to Altrincham grammar, we spent many a happy hour in the griffin and he stamford

Did you fish from my dads land?, by the river among the roman ruins...

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

No different than the Candice Owens attack.

Leftist Protesters Attack Charlie Kirk and Candice Owens of TPUSA | National Review

Whataboutism by post three.

 

[ChristineM]

We aren't talking about archetypes here. We're talking about the accents of people in England.




What's this got to do with the price of cheese?

Glad you know what you are talking about but id like you to define which accent is english.

4s and 6d per pound Jimmy

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Glad you know what you are talking about but id like you to define which accent is english.

All the accents which originate in England are English accents. Cockney, Mancunian, Scouse, Brummy, Geordie, Cornish - to name the main ones.

 

[ChristineM]

All the accents which originate in England are English accents. Cockney, Mancunian, Scouse, Brummy, Geordie, Cornish - to name the main ones.

And all he accents that originate in britain are british.

However my point was that there are regional accents that are not understood as English in many places world wide. Where only bbc english (or cockney) is seen as english.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

And all he accents that originate in britain are british.

The reason I'm trying to establish the fact they're English as opposed to British is because 'British' often refers to a political entity which encompasses Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland as well as England. There are people out there who cannot tell the difference between 'British' and 'English' (understandable, because the two terms are often synonymous) so we end up looking bad by association. I'm trying to point out that this sort of rising far-right threat is a peculiarly English problem in the UK because I don't want to be tarred with the same brush for your (that is to say, England's) ****ty politics.

It's exactly the same as when those English football fans were caught throwing Hitler salutes and singing anti-Semitic songs. How did the media report it? 'British fans'.

 

[Stevicus]

And all he accents that originate in britain are british.

However my point was that there are regional accents that are not understood as English in many places world wide. Where only bbc english (or cockney) is seen as english.

I sometimes struggle to understand the accents, although what I found more daunting was learning and understanding word choice, which is often different across the pond than here in America.

I recall when I first encountered the word "spanner," and I didn't know what it was. Someone told me it was a "wrench," and then I wondered: Well, why didn't they just say "wrench"? (Haynes Auto Repair manuals provide a glossary for their American readers, so we can translate English into English.)

Another example: That liquid substance that we put in vehicles to make them go? It's called "gas," not "petrol."

And then there are spelling differences, such as "color" vs. "colour." That extra "u" doesn't add anything to the pronunciation and it's totally useless. (My understanding is that the reason for this was because English, as a written language, didn't really have any unified standardization until the 19th century, when America and Britain were already separate nations.)

 

[Stevicus]

The reason I'm trying to establish the fact they're English as opposed to British is because 'British' often refers to a political entity which encompasses Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland as well as England. There are people out there who cannot tell the difference between 'British' and 'English' (understandable, because the two terms are often synonymous) so we end up looking bad by association. I'm trying to point out that this sort of rising far-right threat is a peculiarly English problem in the UK because I don't want to be tarred with the same brush for your (that is to say, England's) ****ty politics.

It's exactly the same as when those English football fans were caught throwing Hitler salutes and singing anti-Semitic songs. How did the media report it? 'British fans'.

I can understand what you're saying, and I'll admit that I sometimes think of "British" when it's probably only just "English" I'm thinking of. But a lot of people see it as a singular political unit, reinforced by terms and phrases such as "Rule Britannia" and the "British Empire" (not the "English Empire"). During the American Revolution, we heard "the British are coming, the British are coming!" So, even those who know that the English, Welsh, and Scottish people are different people in different lands, it may be viewed somewhat as a complete package under the term "British."

It might be somewhat the same with how people use and perceive the term "American." It can be used to apply to any inhabitant of North or South America, and some residents of our hemisphere are resentful of how the citizens of the United States have usurped the identity of "American" for ourselves.

But even within that identity, the USA is rather large and diverse, and some Americans don't like the idea of being associated with other Americans.

Actually, I don't think anyone really likes being judged in that way, based solely on where they came from. That seems to be where a lot of the current dissent seems to be coming from, since both sides seem to be saying that they're victims of being misjudged or otherwise mistreated based on who they are.

I briefly caught some guy on right-wing radio yesterday (Mark Levin, I think it was), and he was on a tirade over all the racism and abuse directed against white males. While I don't doubt stuff like that goes on, they make it seem like it has to be stopped at all costs or (worse still) responded to in kind. They blow things out of proportion and seem to want to raise a panic.

I'm not sure how it is in England at present (or the rest of Britain or Ireland, for that matter), but I've noticed some pretty wide-ranging views, from ultra-nationalist to ultra-leftist. America also has a similar range and diversity of views. I'm not sure how people end up gravitating towards one side or the other; I've gone through different phases in life myself, along with a variety of political influences.

But I'll admit that events like this do appear quite disconcerting, regardless of where it happens and who is doing it. The only thing society can do is continue enforcing the laws and demanding justice, but that then comes down to politics - which is in the hands of politicians. I think the fact that people get riled up and intransigent like this is an indication that people are losing faith in the political system.

 

[ChristineM]

I sometimes struggle to understand the accents, although what I found more daunting was learning and understanding word choice, which is often different across the pond than here in America.

I recall when I first encountered the word "spanner," and I didn't know what it was. Someone told me it was a "wrench," and then I wondered: Well, why didn't they just say "wrench"? (Haynes Auto Repair manuals provide a glossary for their American readers, so we can translate English into English.)

Another example: That liquid substance that we put in vehicles to make them go? It's called "gas," not "petrol."

And then there are spelling differences, such as "color" vs. "colour." That extra "u" doesn't add anything to the pronunciation and it's totally useless. (My understanding is that the reason for this was because English, as a written language, didn't really have any unified standardization until the 19th century, when America and Britain were already separate nations.)

I gave your post a useful spanner

Ive seen some british regional tv programs aired in the US with subtitles.

Actually the 'u' does change pronunciation. Subtle but its there and one of the reasons the American accent and British sound so different.

But consider, had the founding fathers and mothers taken a dictionary with them to the new world...

 

[Loviatar]

But consider, had the founding fathers and mothers taken a dictionary with them to the new world...

They did, they had Samuel Johnson's A Dictionary of the English Language. Webster just tried to simplify spellings by making them more phonetic, when an accepted spelling existed that was further from the root etymology of a word but matched the pronunciation better than its alternatives.

 

[ChristineM]

The reason I'm trying to establish the fact they're English as opposed to British is because 'British' often refers to a political entity which encompasses Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland as well as England. There are people out there who cannot tell the difference between 'British' and 'English' (understandable, because the two terms are often synonymous) so we end up looking bad by association. I'm trying to point out that this sort of rising far-right threat is a peculiarly English problem in the UK because I don't want to be tarred with the same brush for your (that is to say, England's) ****ty politics.

It's exactly the same as when those English football fans were caught throwing Hitler salutes and singing anti-Semitic songs. How did the media report it? 'British fans'.

I realize you are trying to separate yourself from those crazy english. Unfortunately England, Scotland, nothern Ireland and Wales make up one nation. Yes its a bugger given the way English politics is at the moment, but...

I too dont want tarring with right wing wing bigotry and xenophobia and when more liberal people do that tarring as a one size fits all finger pointing then i must object.

Luckily got out before the 'fit hit the shan'. Not for that reason but it turned out a fortuitous decision.

 

[ChristineM]

They did, they had Samuel Johnson's A Dictionary of the English Language. Webster just tried to simplify spellings by making them more phonetic, when an accepted spelling existed that was further from the root etymology of a word but matched the pronunciation better than its alternatives.

I am educated, thank you

 

[Phantasman]

We are in an age of terrorism and gang related violence. If your name is on the bomb, there is little you can do about terrorism. Guns are different, they can be controlled, as can knives. Yes, criminals will get some, but if the supply is difficult to get hold of it reduces numbers.
I don't know how many were killed by guns in London last week, less than 2 I suspect, knives are more of a problem but it tends to be inter-gang with occasional collateral damage.
IIRC Regarding the police carrying guns. In a ten year period 2005-15 there were less than 25 deaths by police shootings - and most of them were deliberate and planned after adequate warnings. (I stand to be corrected on this) Most deaths caused by police in the UK are because of car chases.
Overall gun deaths in the UK are about 50 a year.
If you start arming the 'people' and the police gun deaths rise astronomically.

Well. living on that island has some advantage. I don't see Mexico, SA, Canada disarming any time soon and us with a porous border. So I'll keep my guns. England was good at hiding from bombs during WWII, then someone finally manufactured the Spitfire. Some learn from history, some don't. Be safe.

 

[Phantasman]

Well said and welcome to the forum!




No it's not and this whataboutery doesn't wash. Maxine Waters did not call for violence, intimidation or destruction of property; she called for 'harassment and public confrontation' of those holding political office because they support policies which are flagrant rights' violations, are inhumane and are encouraging the profiting off of suffering - and these politicians are not otherwise interested in hearing from their constituents. That's the whole point of holding public office though - you're accountable to your electorate otherwise you don't belong in the job.

So what you're trying to derail the thread with doesn't even compare to the situation of a bunch of EDL failures storming into a socialist bookshop and rowdying up the place. The bookshop isn't 'part of the establishment'; its owner isn't an MP or a councillor. They're just doing it because they disagree.

Please try and focus on the issue of the OP.

Guess you are oblivious to the Maxine Waters School of Etiquette from the LA riots and other extremist remarks.

Are you the Emperor of the forums as well?

 

[Stevicus]

I gave your post a useful spanner

Ive seen some british regional tv programs aired in the US with subtitles.

I saw a two-part series on Queen Elizabeth I, and one common complaint I saw on the IMDb comment board was that people couldn't understand a word of what they were saying. Not because of the accents, but because of the sound mixing. The background score and other sounds were recorded too loud, while the actual dialogue was too soft and hard to hear.

Actually the 'u' does change pronunciation. Subtle but its there and one of the reasons the American accent and British sound so different.

That could be, although I've read that when the written language was being standardized, the English seemed to want to make theirs look more French (i.e. "theatre" vs. "theater").

But consider, had the founding fathers and mothers taken a dictionary with them to the new world...

Well, that's just it. There wasn't really any uniform standardization until the 19th century, both in America and England. Americans just used the language they had when they came over to the New World and stuck with that language, whereas the English made more changes which the Americans didn't adopt. That's why some might argue that American English is actually closer to an earlier form of English, while British English is more of a revised version.

Slang also diverged quite a bit. It's a good way of telling Yanks and Brits apart, although I think it also confuses foreigners whose first language is not English. I recall hearing about an old Soviet era film which depicted an American submarine crew, yet they had them saying things like "bollocks" and "bugger off" - things that Americans wouldn't say.

 

[ChristineM]

That could be, although I've read that when the written language was being standardized, the English seemed to want to make theirs look more French (i.e. "theatre" vs. "theater").

Much English developed from french, there are over 40,000 words spelt the same, only the pronunciation differs. Also remember old french has been spoken in the uk for at least 1000 years, probably much much longer, its not a point of sounding more french, its a point of sounding as spoken.

Isnt it dubya who is supposed to have said "the problem with the French is they have no word for entrepreneur?"

Well, that's just it. There wasn't really any uniform standardization until the 19th century, both in America and England. Americans just used the language they had when they came over to the New World and stuck with that language, whereas the English made more changes which the Americans didn't adopt. That's why some might argue that American English is actually closer to an earlier form of English, while British English is more of a revised version.

Languages develop and change from generation to generation. But english began the process of standardisation in he mid 1700s

Slang also diverged quite a bit. It's a good way of telling Yanks and Brits apart, although I think it also confuses foreigners whose first language is not English. I recall hearing about an old Soviet era film which depicted an American submarine crew, yet they had them saying things like "bollocks" and "bugger off" - things that Americans wouldn't say.

Many old us films depicting brits suffer the same problem

 

[Altfish]

IIRC English is a combination of Latin, French and various Germanic languages such as Norse.
I did a couple of years studying Latin at school, I was rubbish at it but it helped immensely in understanding how English is constructed.

I think it is only non-Brits who get English and British mixed up. The press do it on purpose in a fit of jingoism, e.g. when a Welshman wins the Tour de France the Headline might be "Brit wins the Tour …"

 

[Loviatar]

English, so far as I know, is a mainly Anglo-Saxon grammatical framework with a lot of Norman French words added. With some Greek, Norse, and occasionally German, Indian, or American Indian additions.

There's an interesting emerging theory that the language we recognize as "English" might have formed as a pidgin language between Anglo-Saxon and Norman though, rather than straightforwardly evolving from Old English under heavy Norman influence as previously thought. It would explain its flexibility, both in grammar and the ease at which it takes in outside words.

 

[ChristineM]

IIRC English is a combination of Latin, French and various Germanic languages such as Norse.
I did a couple of years studying Latin at school, I was rubbish at it but it helped immensely in understanding how English is constructed.

I think it is only non-Brits who get English and British mixed up. The press do it on purpose in a fit of jingoism, e.g. when a Welshman wins the Tour de France the Headline might be "Brit wins the Tour …"

Did you see that race. That "brit" rode a pure genius tour.

 

[Altfish]

Did you see that race. That "brit" rode a pure genius tour.

Indeed