Fascism -- the fourteen elements common to all of them

[Revoltingest]

Yep.
Women were allowed to vote and hold public office, abortion was legalized and divorce laws were improved in 1917. These changes also boosted the suffrage movement in the US and Canada. Many important women held office early in the revolution, Alexandra Kollontai and Krupskaya (Lenin's wife who was a seasoned revolutionary in her own rite) are worth googling.

I was thinking of the tradition here of watching official
photos of their leaders. We'd see who was in, & who was
out of power. Men were always in. Women were always
out. I know it's not a complete picture of things there, but it
did not look like women played a role.

As for voting....it's a significant power here, the carping that
a secret capitalist cabal controls all notwithstanding. But
with only one party in the USSR, voting would have much
less power. And then there was the problem of voting
against the uncontested candidate....it wasn't private.
So universal suffrage in the USSR meant that men &
women shared equal powerlessness.

Ameristan has certainly had its problem with voting, eg,
the poll tax. But at least we had multiple parties, who at
times were actually different from each other.

 

[Kooky]

Do you think Nazi Germany was fascist?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So the millions of Allied troops that died, died fighting socialism did they?

I can't see the posts because they are presumably on ignore, so I assume it's Rev making his "Nazi Germany fits the dictionary definition of socialism" argument.

I recall having this debate with them a while ago, and when I asked them to provide the dictionary definition of socialism he provided a definition which he had deliberately amended without mentioning it.

Anybody who seriously asserts that Nazi Germany was socialist is almost as bad as people who claim Hitler was secretly Jewish. It is THAT level of wrong. Both historically and morally.

 

[Secret Chief]

It is abhorrent and you are right in all you say.

 

[Revoltingest]

I disagree. It is a common position held by westerners who have a liberal conception of democracy, but the communists did not believe that democracy was the ability to chose from multiple anti-worker parties but to represent the entire working class in a party which functioned democratically. To present the fact that the Soviet Union was a one-party system as definitionally undemocratic is to start from the position that the concept of soviet democracy was wrong in the first place rather than actually taking a concrete look at the democratic improvements 1916 brought to Russia.

It's not too often that anyone suggests I have a "liberal conception"
of anything. To see the Soviet system as an improvement over
the Czarist system doesn't mean that the people had power over
government to the same extent Ameristan does. It still appears
that voters here had much more choice in their own leaders.

 

[Kooky]

It's not too often that anyone suggests I have a "liberal conception"
of anything. To see the Soviet system as an improvement over
the Czarist system doesn't mean that the people had power over
government to the same extent Ameristan does. It still appears
that voters here had much more choice in their own leaders.

So you have power over your government in America?

Then why is everyone complaining so much?

 

[Revoltingest]

So you have power over your government in America?

Then why is everyone complaining so much?

Everyone complains cuz everyone else who disagrees also has power.

 

[Kooky]

Everyone complains cuz everyone else who disagrees also has power.

If everyone has the same powers...
then nobody is more powerful than anybody else...
and nobody can tell anybody else what to do...

So America is Anarchism?

1 : a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

 

[Revoltingest]

If everyone has the same powers...
then nobody is more powerful than anybody else...
and nobody can tell anybody else what to do...

So America is Anarchism?

Hmmm....that's quite far afield from what I intended.
When people with opposing views, someone won't
get their way. And compromise means that no one
gets their way....but the result is typically good enuf.

 

[Colt]

The term is used so broadly that it’s really useless.

 

[Valjean]

If everyone has the same powers...
then nobody is more powerful than anybody else...
and nobody can tell anybody else what to do...

So America is Anarchism?

America is an oligarchy.
Is America an Oligarchy?

 

[Heyo]

The term is used so broadly that it’s really useless.

It is broadly used colloquially and in propaganda.
It has a definition in political science and it is useful there, especially to determine when a system shows signs drifting towards fascism and what to watch so that doesn't happen.

 

[Colt]

Seems Fascist is commonly used to describe anyone’s opposing political viewpoint. Should the standard be the Fasciest Manifesto?


Contents of the Fascist Manifesto

The Manifesto (published in Il Popolo d'Italia on June 6, 1919) is divided into four sections, describing the movement's objectives in political, social, military and financial fields.[2]

Politically, the Manifesto calls for:

• Universal suffrage with a lowered voting age to 18 years, and voting and electoral office eligibility for all ages 25 and up;
• Proportional representation on a regional basis;
• Voting for women (which was then opposed by most other European nations);
• Representation at government level of newly created national councils by economic sector;
• The abolition of the Italian Senate (at the time, the Senate, as the upper house of parliament, was by process elected by the wealthier citizens, but were in reality direct appointments by the king. It has been described as a sort of extended council of the crown);
• The formation of a national council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made of professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a general commission with ministerial powers.

In labor and social policy, the Manifesto calls for:

• The quick enactment of a law of the state that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers;
• A minimum wage;
• The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions;
• To show the same confidence in the labor unions(that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants;
• Reorganization of the railways and the transport sector;
• Revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance;
• Reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55.

In military affairs, the Manifesto advocates:

• Creation of a short-service national militia with specifically defensive responsibilities;
• Armaments factories are to be nationalized;
• A peaceful but competitive foreign policy.

In finance, the Manifesto advocates:

• A strong progressive tax on capital (envisaging a “partial expropriation” of concentrated wealth);
• The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor;
• Revision of all contracts for military provisions;
• The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.

 

[Estro Felino]

Seems Fascist is commonly used to describe anyone’s opposing political viewpoint. Should the standard be the Fasciest Manifesto?


Contents of the Fascist ManifestoEdit
The Manifesto (published in Il Popolo d'Italia on June 6, 1919) is divided into four sections, describing the movement's objectives in political, social, military and financial fields.[2]

Politically, the Manifesto calls for:

• Universal suffrage with a lowered voting age to 18 years, and voting and electoral office eligibility for all ages 25 and up;
• Proportional representation on a regional basis;
• Voting for women (which was then opposed by most other European nations);
• Representation at government level of newly created national councils by economic sector;
• The abolition of the Italian Senate (at the time, the Senate, as the upper house of parliament, was by process elected by the wealthier citizens, but were in reality direct appointments by the king. It has been described as a sort of extended council of the crown);
• The formation of a national council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made of professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a general commission with ministerial powers.

In labor and social policy, the Manifesto calls for:

• The quick enactment of a law of the state that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers;
• A minimum wage;
• The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions;
• To show the same confidence in the labor unions(that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants;
• Reorganization of the railways and the transport sector;
• Revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance;
• Reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55.

In military affairs, the Manifesto advocates:

• Creation of a short-service national militia with specifically defensive responsibilities;
• Armaments factories are to be nationalized;
• A peaceful but competitive foreign policy.

In finance, the Manifesto advocates:

• A strong progressive tax on capital (envisaging a “partial expropriation” of concentrated wealth);
• The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor;
• Revision of all contracts for military provisions;
• The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.

Sounds like Socialism to me.
After all ...the Duce was called Benito after Benito Juárez. Socialist to the bones.

 

[Secret Chief]

America is an oligarchy.
Is America an Oligarchy?

I find that hard to believe.

 

[Secret Chief]

Hitler was not a fascist. Mussolini was not a fascist.
One must conclude then, that the historians and the political scientists are wrong. Fascism does not exist, it is a meaningless word that refers to nothing.

 

[Secret Chief]

the Duce was called Benito after Benito Juárez. Socialist to the bones.

So you're suggesting that the birth name he was given determined his adult political beliefs?

 

[Estro Felino]

So you're suggesting that the birth name he was given determined his adult political beliefs?

Of course not. But as for economic policies, he did nothing that was non-socialist.

 

[Secret Chief]

Seems Fascist is commonly used to describe anyone’s opposing political viewpoint.

Fascism is a far-right political ideology. The "standard" is found in dictionaries, encyclopedias, history books and politics books. The idea that it is something else, such as simply the ideology of a political opponent seems to have only come about with the advent of social media where anybody can propagate any agenda that they wish to. I find it is those on the far-right themselves that have been the ones to try to muddy the waters by redefining such a toxic word. Understandable of course, not to want to be associated with the word therefore. "Alt-right" sounds so much better than fascist; it's got no historical baggage.

 

[Secret Chief]

Of course not. But as for economic policies, he did nothing that was non-socialist.

He founded and led the National Fascist Party.

"The National Fascist Party (Italian: Partito Nazionale Fascista, PNF) was an Italian political party, created by Benito Mussolini as the political expression of Italian Fascism and as a reorganization of the previous Italian Fasces of Combat."

- National Fascist Party - Wikipedia