Fathers and familiy stability data

[Truth in love]

This is simply incorrect. Multiple studies have already been done showing that children of same sex couples are just as successful, healthy, well-adjusted, etc as children of opposite sex couples. It would behoove you to look at some peer reviewed research on the topic.

Moreover, you have not accounted for other family arrangements common in non-Western cultures where extended families and even non-family members in the same tribe, neighborhood, etc. are often highly involved in child-rearing.

Here's an example from the literature for you that also summarizes prior research on the topic:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0003122420957249

How many same sex couples were raising kids 30 years ago?

I've looked at studies on many family settings and systems. Not all for sure, but nothing has disproved the research on the nuclear family model.

 

[Left Coast]

How many same sex couples were raising kids 30 years ago?

What arbitrary place did the number 30 come from?

I've looked at studies on many family settings and systems. Not all for sure, but nothing has disproved the research on the nuclear family model.

If you've looked at "many family settings and systems," you'd know how absurd it is to claim that the "nuclear family" is somehow universal. The nuclear family is essentially a 20th century construct. Surely you'd know that if you'd done any historical research on the concept whatsoever.

 

[Truth in love]

What arbitrary place did the number 30 come from?



If you've looked at "many family settings and systems," you'd know how absurd it is to claim that the "nuclear family" is somehow universal. The nuclear family is essentially a 20th century construct. Surely you'd know that if you'd done any historical research on the concept whatsoever.

I’m a fan of science. I’ll take it over rumor.


As for the number 30 in order to see the impacts of childhood we need to see the adult lives of those children.

given the cultural norms and in many places laws I think we have a very small sample size to pull from. This raises the risk of error in the results. When we have data spanning many years of many thousands of people we can do better work vs a few dozen or even a few hundred willing to take part in the studies.

 

[Left Coast]

I’m a fan of science. I’ll take it over rumor.

Me too. I already cited the science for you.

As for the number 30 in order to see the impacts of childhood we need to see the adult lives of those children.

People become adults at age 18, not 30. Do you suppose people who are doing just as well if not better than their peers academically, psychologically, and socially are going to suddenly magically decompensate at age 30 because they were raised by two people with penises or two people with vaginas? If you're a fan of science you ought to know that doesn't make much sense.

given the cultural norms and in many places laws I think we have a very small sample size to pull from. This raises the risk of error in the results.

Yes it does, and the article I cited addresses that exact issue. Did you read it?

 

[Truth in love]

There's been literal decades of research with study sizes much bigger than a lot of the studies provided by this thread with overwhelming evidence kids of lgbt do just as well in all metrics and even better in some (particularly communication).

Feel free to post a few.

 

[Truth in love]

Me too. I already cited the science for you.



People become adults at age 18, not 30. Do you suppose people who are doing just as well if not better than their peers academically, psychologically, and socially are going to suddenly magically decompensate at age 30 because they were raised by two people with penises or two people with vaginas? If you're a fan of science you ought to know that doesn't make much sense.



Yes it does, and the article I cited addresses that exact issue. Did you read it?

Where to start.

the sample is overwhelmingly female/ Lesbian. So the findings are not generalize able to gay men.

No consideration on the child’s history. (When how etc of adoption matters a ton).

Also the cost selection factor. I could have told you that by picking only persons of higher SES backgrounds vs tue general population the kids of the higher SES will do better.


I’m glade people are asking the questions, but we need a broad representative sample and this one fails to do that.

 

[Left Coast]

Where to start.

the sample is overwhelmingly female/ Lesbian. So the findings are not generalize able to gay men.

I see, so then you're cool with lesbian couples raising kids, right?

No consideration on the child’s history. (When how etc of adoption matters a ton).

This is just as relevant in opposite sex couple adoptions.

Also the cost selection factor. I could have told you that by picking only persons of higher SES backgrounds vs tue general population the kids of the higher SES will do better.

Well since I assume you know that same sex parents tend to be higher SES than opposite sex ones, this should logically lead you more in favor of same sex parenting. Right?

I’m glade people are asking the questions, but we need a broad representative sample and this one fails to do that.

What's "this one?" The particular study I linked? It discusses past research as well reviewing the literature on the topic. Here's another literature review for you, reviewing the results of some 40 studies:

Child Well-Being in Same-Sex Parent Families: Review of Research Prepared for American Sociological Association Amicus Brief

 

[Truth in love]

I see, so then you're cool with lesbian couples raising kids, right?



This is just as relevant in opposite sex couple adoptions.



Well since I assume you know that same sex parents tend to be higher SES than opposite sex ones, this should logically lead you more in favor of same sex parenting. Right?



What's "this one?" The particular study I linked? It discusses past research as well reviewing the literature on the topic. Here's another literature review for you, reviewing the results of some 40 studies:

Child Well-Being in Same-Sex Parent Families: Review of Research Prepared for American Sociological Association Amicus Brief

You are correct about kids adopted by arrogant couples. The SES factor is pretty significant.
As for lesbian couples I have stated there is a lack of evidence. I’ve never said that a gay, lesbian, single mom, 2nd aunt twice removed etc should not be able to raise a kid. I was pointing out research on the ideal environment. An ideal that will often not be met. I’d far prefer a child be in a home with loving lesbian parents than in a group home. There are too many options to list them all. I would argue that the closer the home life is to the ideal the better the outcomes are likely to be. In short carrot sticks being healthier than Cheetos does not mean that I’m trying to ban Cheetos.

SES typically excludes people with lower levels of functioning in various areas. It’s not the main factor in child rearing ability.

a comparison between straight and gay couples of comparable incomes and communities would be very helpful. As more kids are raised in L/G homes that research will be doable.

 

[Left Coast]

You are correct about kids adopted by arrogant couples. The SES factor is pretty significant.
As for lesbian couples I have stated there is a lack of evidence. I’ve never said that a gay, lesbian, single mom, 2nd aunt twice removed etc should not be able to raise a kid. I was pointing out research on the ideal environment. An ideal that will often not be met. I’d far prefer a child be in a home with loving lesbian parents than in a group home. There are too many options to list them all. I would argue that the closer the home life is to the ideal the better the outcomes are likely to be. In short carrot sticks being healthier than Cheetos does not mean that I’m trying to ban Cheetos.

SES typically excludes people with lower levels of functioning in various areas. It’s not the main factor in child rearing ability.

a comparison between straight and gay couples of comparable incomes and communities would be very helpful. As more kids are raised in L/G homes that research will be doable.

The thing is, if same sex parents tend to be better parents because of their average higher SES, who cares? Whatever the reason, they are better parents. So until that changes, we have no reason to consider them less than "ideal." In fact, what that result suggests is that the sex of the parents is irrelevant.

And again, your "ideal" is a product of the 20th century West. Many other family arrangements have and do exist across time and cultures. It is very common, for example, in non-Western cultures for extended families and neighbors to play significant roles in child-rearing. So the very first claim of the article you cited is just plain incorrect. The "nuclear family" is not universal nor ideal. Stable, loving families with resources are ideal. And those come in various forms.

 

[Truth in love]

The thing is, if same sex parents tend to be better parents because of their average higher SES, who cares? Whatever the reason, they are better parents. So until that changes, we have no reason to consider them less than "ideal." In fact, what that result suggests is that the sex of the parents is irrelevant.

And again, your "ideal" is a product of the 20th century West. Many other family arrangements have and do exist across time and cultures. It is very common, for example, in non-Western cultures for extended families and neighbors to play significant roles in child-rearing. So the very first claim of the article you cited is just plain incorrect. The "nuclear family" is not universal nor ideal. Stable, loving families with resources are ideal. And those come in various forms.

agian the study did not compare higher SES married straight couples to higher SES Lesbian couples. So dismissing decades of research showing that gender does matter would be wrong. It does suggest that we should be open to the possibility of other family forms and evaluate them.

 

[Left Coast]

agian the study did not compare higher SES married straight couples to higher SES Lesbian couples.

You're incorrect, the study literally did control for SES. As the study states:

"Our results mostly support the hypothesis that given the time-consuming and costly procedures for same-sex couples to obtain children, same-sex parents typically have higher socioeconomic status, resulting in better school outcomes. Indeed, once we controlled for socioeconomic variables, the positive association between residing with same-sex parents and test scores dropped significantly. Nonetheless, the positive association was not entirely removed."

 

[Truth in love]

You're incorrect, the study literally did control for SES. As the study states:

"Our results mostly support the hypothesis that given the time-consuming and costly procedures for same-sex couples to obtain children, same-sex parents typically have higher socioeconomic status, resulting in better school outcomes. Indeed, once we controlled for socioeconomic variables, the positive association between residing with same-sex parents and test scores dropped significantly. Nonetheless, the positive association was not entirely removed."

So tiny. Did they account for age of parent. I’m a hack of a better parent now than I was back when I started. Age, like skills etc.

 

[Left Coast]

So tiny. Did they account for age of parent. I’m a hack of a better parent now than I was back when I started. Age, like skills etc.

This is moving the goalpost now. You asked about SES. They controlled for that. The positive correlation remained.

Again, if same sex couples tend to be older, and thus wiser and better parents, so what? That's more of a reason to support their parenting skills! If all these other factors are so much more important than sex of the parents, this contradicts your whole thesis of the thread here.

 

[Truth in love]

This is moving the goalpost now. You asked about SES. They controlled for that. The positive correlation remained.

Again, if same sex couples tend to be older, and thus wiser and better parents, so what? That's more of a reason to support their parenting skills!

I did not move a goal post. You cited this research as evidence that a lot of other research is no longer valid.

I’ve said a few times we need to be comparing similar groups. What are the supports like in their communities. Back in the 80-90’s in the US you would have many communities that would be very unsupportive if not full on hostile to a gay couple raising a child. More recently that’s fillip a great deal.

if I want to compare the health benefits of riding a bike and my biking group is all in the city and the non bikers all in the county or maybe one group is 10-20 years older that will skew the results.

 

[Left Coast]

I did not move a goal post. You cited this research as evidence that a lot of other research is no longer valid.

No, I didn't. I cited this research as one example of many studies in the last 20 years on the impacts of same sex couple parenting after you claimed those arrangements "don't work out well for children," citing zero research.

You claimed that gay couples have better outcomes because of SES. I showed you that the study I cited controlled for SES. Then you said "well what about their age?"
That's moving the goalpost. When I show a study accounting for age, you'll come up with something else.

I’ve said a few times we need to be comparing similar groups. What are the supports like in their communities. Back in the 80-90’s in the US you would have many communities that would be very unsupportive if not full on hostile to a gay couple raising a child. More recently that’s fillip a great deal.

Which explains why it's a difficult topic to study. The very stigma social conservatives have preemptively placed on us because of dogma rather than evidence has limited our ability to understand it.

if I want to compare the health benefits of riding a bike and my biking group is all in the city and the non bikers all in the county or maybe one group is 10-20 years older that will skew the results.

Yes, that's research methodology 101. You don't think the PhDs doing this research for the last 20 years understand the relevance of controlling for confounding variables?

 

[Truth in love]

No, I didn't. I cited this research as one example of many studies in the last 20 years on the impacts of same sex couple parenting after you claimed those arrangements "don't work out well for children," citing zero research.

You claimed that gay couples have better outcomes because of SES. I showed you that the study I cited controlled for SES. Then you said "well what about their age?"
That's moving the goalpost. When I show a study accounting for age, you'll come up with something else.



Which explains why it's a difficult topic to study. The very stigma social conservatives have preemptively placed on us because of dogma rather than evidence has limited our ability to understand it.



Yes, that's research methodology 101. You don't think the PhDs doing this research for the last 20 years understand the relevance of controlling for confounding variables?

1. I did not cite zero research I posted so much info on the topic that the moderators got mad. There is a large body of evidence going into man areas showing that kids do best in a home with their bio parents vs non traditional relationships.

2, given the low grade research that’s been pawned off on society over the years I don’t assume that people trying to get published have the foggiest on proper controls.

 

[Left Coast]

1. I did not cite zero research I posted so much info on the topic that the moderators got mad. There is a large body of evidence going into man areas showing that kids do best in a home with their bio parents vs non traditional relationships.

With respect, the views you posted a) did not compare opposite sex and same sex couple households. It mainly compared opposite sex couple households to single mother households, and made other general claims about the benefits of fathers in their children's lives, and b) there was no reference section where any of the claims were apparently pulled from for anyone to actually examine the original research on which the many claims were made.

2, given the low grade research that’s been pawned off on society over the years I don’t assume that people trying to get published have the foggiest on proper controls.

These people haven't tried to get published - they've been published. That's why we're reading their research.

The fact that you don't think professional researchers understand the need to control extraneous variables, and take very intentional methodical steps to do so (and literally explain how they did so step by step) suggests that a) you didn't actually read that article in particular nor b) do you have the foggiest clue how professional academic research is done.