Fear: Can it take away your choices...?

[EverChanging]

Haha I guess I'm just superhuman. I thought everybody could actively influence how they feel. Maybe I'm from outer space and my parents just haven't told me yet.

That you are superhuman is not a convincing answer.

Temperance. It's one of the Seven Heavenly Virtues.

And how do you choose temperance without outside influences enabling and encouraging you to practice it, such as your religious beliefs? Did not these religious beliefs come into contact with you through your environment?

Just because science hasn't figured out how this works, doesn't mean it doesn't.

How what works? The ghost in the machine "choosing" the way biochemistry and electrical impulses work to produce your behavior? Just because something cannot be disproven does not make it any more true. Science has not disproven that an invisible immaterial dragon is sleeping in my room, but that doesn't make it true, either.

People who argue that they are helpless to the whims of biology do so to dismiss personal responsibility. No point in trying if it's hopeless, right?

Appeal to consequences. This has no relevance to whether the claim is actually true.

Anyone who has ever gotten angry, calmed down and expressed their concern tacfully should have all the evidence they need. Anyone who has resisted the urge to make babies with the hot girl they're with, or chose to try again despite their discouragement. How is any of that even possible or worthwhile if we're just machines? Machines programmed to be polite?

Calming down after getting angry without throwing any punches does not indicate free will. You did not choose to get angry in the first place. Our choices are often governed by consequences. Obviously, the environmental influences on you were not great enough to actually produce violence. Change the environment, change the behavior.

Machines being programmed polite, you ask? Yes, in some sense this is true. Many of us have been socialized from day one to be polite. This has been ingrained into our behavior from very early years. It isn't a surprise that we pick up social skills, like politeness. They are useful and advantageous to us. There are also evolutionary benefits to the evolution of morality. A species won't survive very long if all of its members attack and kill each other instead of cooperating from survival.

Because science is wrong and emotions are not caused by biochemical processes but are held and released in consciousness as one chooses.The biochemical processes and electrical impulses our how the body communicates with that which we hold in consciousness and not the cause.
You can hold on to and release thoughts and feelings out of your consciousness as you choose.

That's a very strong claim. Where's your evidence?

And I must ask, who is this "me" observing our actions or choosing? We assume that we are observing the contents of consciousness, like a person sitting in a chair observing everything on a giant screen. But if we imagine ourselves this way, some ghost in the brain or resting behind the eyes, observing contents of consciousness, who is within the observer to observe that there is an observer? This leads to an infinite regress, as does the notion of choosing.

If we are truly free to make choices, or not make choices...if our environment is not propelling us to make choices, then we must freely choose to choose. And choose to choose to choose. Onto infinity. This line of thinking also leads to an illogical infinite regress.

Libertarian free will and Cartesian Theatre thinking are both incoherent and illogical.

 

[Walkntune]

That's a very strong claim. Where's your evidence?

And I must ask, who is this "me" observing our actions or choosing? We assume that we are observing the contents of consciousness, like a person sitting in a chair observing everything on a giant screen. But if we imagine ourselves this way, some ghost in the brain or resting behind the eyes, observing contents of consciousness, who is within the observer to observe that there is an observer? This leads to an infinite regress, as does the notion of choosing.

If we are truly free to make choices, or not make choices...if our environment is not propelling us to make choices, then we must freely choose to choose. And choose to choose to choose. Onto infinity. This line of thinking also leads to an illogical infinite regress.

Libertarian free will and Cartesian Theatre thinking are both incoherent and illogical.

Yes it is hard to see the seeing.
We do know that conscious thoughts blind awareness as one can not see something in front of there face like keys when we are in a panic.Releasing this fear opens awareness and changes perspectives. All it is is a conscious choice to release and suddenly we become aware of what was in front of us the whole time.What was it that the consciousness released that was keeping it contracted?


Choices only come to those who are free from conscious control and have an open awareness.
Otherwise you are controlled by conscious wants and desires.

 

[EverChanging]

Yes it is hard to see the seeing.
We do know that conscious thoughts blind awareness as one can not see something in front of there face like keys when we are in a panic.Releasing this fear opens awareness and changes perspectives. All it is is a conscious choice to release and suddenly we become aware of what was in front of us the whole time.What was it that the consciousness released that was keeping it contracted?

This is not an answer to the incoherence of free will and the Cartesian Theatre (a personal observer watching consciousness as if on a screen).

Choices only come to those who are free from conscious control and have an open awareness.

What is conscious control? Outside influences? Environment? Because those things don't go away.

 

[ninerbuff]

Although fear can seem to be crippling, in reality when emotions are released they have no substance as many who release the fear of death come to find out.
In reality it is the resistance of the fear that causes us dilemma.
Freedom and peace lie on the other side of fear.

So although you are correct that fear is crippling to ones life and choices, it is our choice to allow it to be so.

I will disagree. If you didn't fear getting burned or hurt from fire, then you would treat it irresponsibly.
If a homosexual didn't fear what people thought of them, they would walk into a "redneck" bar and start hitting it up with other men. That type of fearlessness could get them hurt badly.
Fear isn't bad. It can actually keep you safe and save you.

 

[Walkntune]

This is not an answer to the incoherence of free will and the Cartesian Theatre (a personal observer watching consciousness as if on a screen).



What is conscious control? Outside influences? Environment? Because those things don't go away.

As I said the consciousness has the ability to hold on or let go of thoughts and feelings as you choose. If you hold on then in contracts the awareness.
Awareness is meant to open and close from fight and flight instincts but when we hold on consciously to thoughts we also hold the awareness in place.
You can be free in awareness to observe thoughts passing in and out of the mind or you can be consciously contracted around thoughts and not see the forest through the trees. This is how you distinguish the difference of being aware of consciousness.
Sometimes people try to make reality line up with conscious thought instead of just being open to reality with awareness.
What do you think it is that causes a song to get stuck in someones head or for something to weigh on someones mind? A chemical reaction?
Why do you think emotions can be stored in someone that they carried from childhood
a whole lifetime? What is it that the consciousness is holding on to?
Conscious control is refusing to let go of that which we hold onto consciously as to not deal with it.It becomes suppressed into the subconscious and overtime distorts awareness of reality and cause of mental illnesses.
Psychotherapy is used as a cure why? So the person can let go of that which they have held onto that they didn't want to face.What is it a chemical reaction?It that was the case I am sure the body would have just balanced itself out chemical and there would be nothing stored to be dealt with or released. What is it that is released?

 

[waitasec]

Haha I guess I'm just superhuman. I thought everybody could actively influence how they feel. Maybe I'm from outer space and my parents just haven't told me yet.

tell that to someone who is bi-polar
or a women who is going through menopause.
or someone who is sensitive to low blood sugar

you are not in control of your hormones, sorry superman

 

[waitasec]

Just because science hasn't figured out how this works, doesn't mean it doesn't.

what about an abused child...?

 

[Walkntune]

I will disagree. If you didn't fear getting burned or hurt from fire, then you would treat it irresponsibly.
If a homosexual didn't fear what people thought of them, they would walk into a "redneck" bar and start hitting it up with other men. That type of fearlessness could get them hurt badly.
Fear isn't bad. It can actually keep you safe and save you.

You need to read a little deeper into what I was saying.
I stated it is our resistance to fear that causes us dilemma.

 

[Walkntune]

As human beings we are controlled by our emotions and by our thoughts. In order to "release all emotions and thoughts" we'd have to be permanently asleep, comatose.

For one we are not controlled by emotions or thoughts and actually have the ability to control them. At least i hope you do because they both tend to be deceptive and not accurate to reality.
It doesn't mean we don't have thoughts but we do not grip on to them.They come in and go.We control them.
Spiritually speaking we cast all thoughts a side and we cast our cares on him for he cares for us.

 

[ninerbuff]

For one we are not controlled by emotions or thoughts and actually have the ability to control them. At least i hope you do because they both tend to be deceptive and not accurate to reality.
It doesn't mean we don't have thoughts but we do not grip on to them.They come in and go.We control them.
Spiritually speaking we cast all thoughts a side and we cast our cares on him for he cares for us.

If that were true then people who have witnessed horrible deaths, tragedies or scary events could toss those "thoughts" out of their heads. Please explain how they can "control" those thoughts from resurfacing?

 

[Walkntune]

If that were true then people who have witnessed horrible deaths, tragedies or scary events could toss those "thoughts" out of their heads. Please explain how they can "control" those thoughts from resurfacing?

By releasing the emotions tied to the thoughts.

 

[EverChanging]

As I said the consciousness has the ability to hold on or let go of thoughts and feelings as you choose. If you hold on then in contracts the awareness.

You are assuming that consciousness has abilities and grasps onto things, that it can let go or hold on. Who is the one making the actions? To think that you are somehow in control of thought, you are saying that you may choose without constraint, that your thoughts are not caused. This would assume that actions come out of a vacuum. You choose to choose. You choose to choose to choose. This leads to an infinite regress. The idea of someone in there choosing to let go or hold on, is an illusion.

If there is some "me" inside my brain observing this, who is it inside of him observing this? Infinite regress.

Awareness is meant to open and close from fight and flight instincts but when we hold on consciously to thoughts we also hold the awareness in place.
You can be free in awareness to observe thoughts passing in and out of the mind or you can be consciously contracted around thoughts and not see the forest through the trees. This is how you distinguish the difference of being aware of consciousness.

I understand the idea of observing thought. I have the feeling of doing this often. But when I really look, there is no one there. Only thoughts. There is no central headquarters in the brain for a self.

What do you think it is that causes a song to get stuck in someones head or for something to weigh on someones mind? A chemical reaction?

It is thought that since so much other behavior and emotions are known to be elicited by certain chemicals in the brain and electrical stimulation to various parts of the brain, then yes, a chemical reaction is involved when a song seems to be stuck in the mind. The brain can be stimulated to produce all kinds of sensations -- seeming memories, out of body experiences, and other things. It can even be stimulated so as to make us have certain intentions. Stronger stimulation can make us think we performed those intentions when we had not.

Why do you think emotions can be stored in someone that they carried from childhood
a whole lifetime? What is it that the consciousness is holding on to?

I don't assume that consciousness is a being that can be said to hold anything or have intentions.

Conscious control is refusing to let go of that which we hold onto consciously as to not deal with it.It becomes suppressed into the subconscious and overtime distorts awareness of reality and cause of mental illnesses.

Conscious control -- refusing to let go of that which we hold onto consciously as to not deal with it. I don't know really what you mean by that. Can you clarify? And how does something we hold onto consciously become subconscious? And it causes mental illness, you say. Do you not believe that chemical reactions are involved with illnesses like schizophrenia or bi polar disorder?

What is it a chemical reaction?It that was the case I am sure the body would have just balanced itself out chemical and there would be nothing stored to be dealt with or released. What is it that is released?

I'm not sure what you are talking about releasing. And I don't know what you mean about the body balancing out chemicals. As far as we know, people with schizophrenia don't just have their bodies fix a chemical balance going on. They are treated with medication for that, and the medications have chemical reactions, and often times former psychotics live normal lives on these drugs, which keep them from hallucinating or becoming delusional. What would you tell a schizophrenic to release for healing? How do you expect them to change their biochemistry, unless they do it with chemicals?

 

[ninerbuff]

By releasing the emotions tied to the thoughts.

Okay so they release the emotions. Let's say it's fear. So now explain that by releasing their fear, that they now have total control of not having it again? That by not hearing a gunshot, or see killing that it doesn't bring that fear back?
It's much more than what you state an easy fix is. If it were that easy, then people who have been raped, experience war, have had a child kidnapped, etc. would be easy fixes.

 

[EverChanging]

For one we are not controlled by emotions or thoughts and actually have the ability to control them. At least i hope you do because they both tend to be deceptive and not accurate to reality.
It doesn't mean we don't have thoughts but we do not grip on to them.They come in and go.We control them.
Spiritually speaking we cast all thoughts a side and we cast our cares on him for he cares for us.

There is no way to control the thoughts, even watching them in meditation. In meditation, I have periods of no thought interspersed with the mind wandering. When the mind wanders, the mantra pops up, and there is silence again.

But lets turn to the thoughts. Where do they come from? They seem to come from no where. And often times I seem to have observed a thought or action when really it was like the thought started even before I seemed to notice it. And the mantra, where does that come from? These thoughts seem to come from a depth, from no where. And who is letting them go, when they are constantly falling away?

When I really stare, the observer falls away. I disappear. The observer pops in when there is some jolt, some noticing a thought begun or an action already performed, and after that, a memory of what has already happen pops into place even though we didn't seem to be conscious at the time.

I think these thoughts are continuously arising and falling away. Every time I reflect on whatever I am conscious of, there seems to be a self, but other times, there is not. And when the self tries to look for what it is when the self is not there, the attempt is doomed because there is no self. There are only thoughts coming and going, and no thinker or doer behind them.

The idea of choosing involves an infinite regress. The idea of an observer inside this mass of neurons leads to an infinite regress.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I just had a strong hunch!

In the physcological field they do not test subjects period for any chemical imbalances and hand out drugs like candy.
It is very bad science.

While something being peer reviewed in no way guarantees that it is correct, it counts for a hell of a lot more than your "hunch".

And if you do not believe in the process of science, why do you use a computer, take a flight on a plane, use modern medicine, drive a car, eat any food that you haven't grown yourself, buy clothes, own a cellphone and so on and so forth?

 

[Midnight Pete]

We always choose with a guide. Fear is a liar saying, "follow me I will keep you safe", but it's real intent is to keep you from going where you will and to wound your heart.

Fear can protect us and keep us alive. Some fears are very important to have.

 

[waitasec]

Fear can protect us and keep us alive. Some fears are very important to have.

you mean fear of hell, or eternal damnation?

 

[thedope]

Fear can protect us and keep us alive. Some fears are very important to have.

An adrenalin reaction to danger is natural and occurs without prejudice. Fear is the presence of fight or flight response where there is no imminent danger.

 

[Wandered Off]

I think there's a level of fear that doesn't really remove your choice, but it can reveal the choice to be more limited than it may appear.

For example, let's take a common tenet: "Believe X and you will have eternal paradise. Reject X, and you will be unimaginably tormented forever." That's kind of like if I came up to you and said, "Here, take this delicious cookie! But if you don't take the tasty treat, I'm going to stuff you into a large blender a little at a time."

Sure, you still have a choice. Your free will isn't limited by the fear itself, but it reveals that your free will was already limited by whoever/whatever threatens to impose the consequence you fear.

 

[Walkntune]

=EverChanging;2216351]You are assuming that consciousness has abilities and grasps onto things, that it can let go or hold on. Who is the one making the actions? To think that you are somehow in control of thought, you are saying that you may choose without constraint, that your thoughts are not caused. This would assume that actions come out of a vacuum. You choose to choose. You choose to choose to choose. This leads to an infinite regress. The idea of someone in there choosing to let go or hold on, is an illusion.

You are not your thoughts any more than you are your emotions and feelings.
You have thoughts and you have feelings.
Thoughts don't come out of nowhere. Thoughts come from emotions and feelings.
True you can't control thoughts directly but you can release emotions which change and alter thoughts.If you are mad at someone you will continuously think about the situation between you and the person until the anger is released.Holding on to emotions is what locks the consciousness into place.If you get completely trapped behind fear you go into shock and consciousness freezes.
Like I was saying, a little bit of panic can effect the awareness so you can't even see something like keys that you lost even thought they are in front of your face.

I

f there is some "me" inside my brain observing this, who is it inside of him observing this? Infinite regress.

I understand the idea of observing thought. I have the feeling of doing this often. But when I really look, there is no one there. Only thoughts. There is no central headquarters in the brain for a self.

]If you can recognise having thoughts,this would be the same as being able to see the seeing. How does this occur?

It is thought that since so much other behavior and emotions are known to be elicited by certain chemicals in the brain and electrical stimulation to various parts of the brain, then yes, a chemical reaction is involved when a song seems to be stuck in the mind. The brain can be stimulated to produce all kinds of sensations -- seeming memories, out of body experiences, and other things. It can even be stimulated so as to make us have certain intentions. Stronger stimulation can make us think we performed those intentions when we had not.I don't assume that consciousness is a being that can be said to hold anything or have intentions.

Conscious control -- refusing to let go of that which we hold onto consciously as to not deal with it. I don't know really what you mean by that. Can you clarify? And how does something we hold onto consciously become subconscious? And it causes mental illness, you say. Do you not believe that chemical reactions are involved with illnesses like schizophrenia or bi polar disorder?

Conscious awareness is more than thoughts. It is your thoughts, emotions, and intuition etc. Conscious control comes from suppressing emotions you don't want to deal with and therefore alters the thought process. Its the cause of alcholism and addictions. Peolple try to drowned their sorrows.If you continuously hold on to a hurt feeling instead of dealing with it and releasing it, then it will always be there to remind you of the situation and come into thought. There are people who go on and on about dumb things that happened years ago because they refuse to forgive(means to release the hurt).I believe the chemical reactions are from the process of emotions turning into thoughts.
]Chemical reactions being part of the process does not make it the cause.To assume chemical imbalances is the cause of depression is only theory which is in ongoing debate.If chemical reactions are the cause then what part of the thinking and feeling process caused the chemicals to be out of balance.Think about cause and effect.
Personally I believe the cause of the chemical imbalance is a conflict between the emotions and thoughts.

I'm not sure what you are talking about releasing. And I don't know what you mean about the body balancing out chemicals. As far as we know, people with schizophrenia don't just have their bodies fix a chemical balance going on. They are treated with medication for that, and the medications have chemical reactions, and often times former psychotics live normal lives on these drugs, which keep them from hallucinating or becoming delusional. What would you tell a schizophrenic to release for healing? How do you expect them to change their biochemistry, unless they do it with chemicals?

I can pull up studies on this that have shown medications to only be effective in short terms and people actually are able to deal better without the medicines and the side effects over long term.