Female Arab talks sense

[Caladan]

But she lied, she quiet simply lied when she said that muslims are instructed to kill other non-muslims. I can't bring myself to think that when she said that she didn't know any better. She must have been lying. For me, her intentions are shining through that video.

Are we talking about a specific Ayat? or the idea in general.

There is something people don't put in mind, that through time the Quran was being inspired to Muhammad (pbuh), and in the early days of Islam, there has been wars and torture and injustice inflicted upon the early muslims by the unbelievers, idolators, and jews of that time. However, things now are different, so a lot of the verses that people might take as describing them, or instructing muslims to do to them, is not about today.

I dont find it reliable that such a so called persecuted Muslim minority would have such dramatic war like declarations, against the infidels of the time, against the Jews past and future. its going to be hard to claim that many Muslims treat these Ayat as a thing of the past, many justify hatred against Jews and others based on these Qur'anic sources today in our times. furthermore I also read negatives unrelated to the tensions between the early Muslims and non Muslims such as mysogynistic Ayat declaring the superiority of men. in general, the Qur'an came off as a book written by very angry tribal men.
So I have to ask, do you believe that most Muslims today treat the Qur'an and these Ayats as anachronistic? as a thing of the 7th century? and that they should not guide them today?

Today not all or most of people who do not adhere Islam are enemies to it. Atheists, other abrahamic followers, and any other religion. It's different today. And, through other verses in the quran, we are taught to be kind and just to any person who aren't a muslim.

Well, I don't think that people who aspire for coexistence need to accept everything about the other parties, there is much to criticize. I do not consider all Muslims to be my enemies, but that does not mean that I'm going to make it any easier for them when I debate them, there are alot of issues which are concerning to many informed people, there are alot of issued i'm concerned about and which effect me directly, I think that in reality these issues effect most people in the world.

 

[Badran]

Are we talking about a specific Ayat? or the idea in general.

She said Islam calls for muslims to kill the other (non-muslims) because they don't believe in it. which is false. So in general. do you agree?

I dont find it reliable that such a so called persecuted Muslim minority would have such dramatic war like declarations, against the infidels of the time, against the Jews past and future. its going to be hard to claim that many Muslims treat these Ayat as a thing of the past, many justify hatred against Jews and others based on these Qur'anic sources today in our times.

Some of course still use these verses to justify their hatred and their horrible actions, i don't deny that.

furthermore I also read negatives unrelated to the tensions between the early Muslims and non Muslims such as mysogynistic Ayat declaring the superiority of men. in general, the Qur'an came off as a book written by very angry tribal men.
So I have to ask, do you believe that most Muslims today treat the Qur'an and these Ayats as anachronistic? as a thing of the 7th century? and that they should not guide them today?

Neither me or most muslims treat the Quran as a thing of the 7th century, i only put in mind the difference between today and back then. You're obviously entitled to your view on the Quran, however i don't treat it as such. For me it is the guide for my actions.

For the part about women, all these verses are a matter of debate, and people specially in recent days have made multiple threads about this, and we are sharing how and why we view these verses as not unfair or unjust to women. Muslim women too share why they themselves do not see these verses as unjust. Either because there is a misunderstanding, or for example an idea that some others do not agree with.

Well, I don't think that people who aspire for coexistence need to accept everything about the other parties, there is much to criticize. I do not consider all Muslims to be my enemies, but that does not mean that I'm going to make it any easier for them when I debate them, there are alot of issues which are concerning to many informed people, there are alot of issued i'm concerned about and which effect me directly, I think that in reality these issues effect most people in the world.

You certainly do not need to accept everything about other parties, especially when we don't neither. We should debate about every single idea we do not agree on.

However, in regard of this thread, it's just the usual. Trying to blame Islam for the problems and horrors done by some. (the video i mean).

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Does this mean that the entire Islamic culture is based on the memories of some old men? Sounds very subjective rather than objective, and very circumstantial. I guess thats fine but means its built on shaky ground that detracts from its credibility.

Cheers

If only you knew what these "old men memories" say ..

 

[Caladan]

She said Islam calls for muslims to kill the other (non-muslims) because they don't believe in it. which is false. So in general. do you agree?

In our times, Islamist terrorism has effected and distorted the fabric of life in all continents, Europe, Asia, Africa, North and South America, even Australia were all effected by radical Islam.
I realize that many Muslims do not want anything to do with violence, or even hatred, I understand and highly respect that, however it is also hard for me to deny just how easy it is to use the material of the Qur'an and some basic aspects of Islam to justify strife. nowdays there is a battle in society and the media to understand the difference between radical Islam and moderate Islam, and I hope that this is what we are doing here as well. I think the only way to get to the root of the core issues, is by honesty, and by expressing our piece of mind.

Some of course still use these verses to justify their hatred and their horrible actions, i don't deny that.

*nods*

Neither me or most muslims treat the Quran as a thing of the 7th century, i only put in mind the difference between today and back then. You're obviously entitled to your view on the Quran, however i don't treat it as such. For me it is the guide for my actions.

But do most Muslims put in mind the difference between today and back then? when there are Arab TV programs that display Jews as the the killers of the prophets for example, it is obvious that there are Muslims who will always have this traditional bias that Jews are some form of an evil seed.

For the part about women, all these verses are a matter of debate, and people specially in recent days have made multiple threads about this, and we are sharing how and why we view these verses as not unfair or unjust to women. Muslim women too share why they themselves do not see these verses as unjust. Either because there is a misunderstanding, or for example an idea that some others do not agree with.

And there are just as much people debating how these verses ARE unjust to women.

You certainly do not need to accept everything about other parties, especially when we don't neither. We should debate about every single idea we do not agree on.

However, in regard of this thread, it's just the usual. Trying to blame Islam for the problems and horrors done by some. (the video i mean).

However what we have here is a woman from Muslim background, born in a Muslim country, lived in a Muslim country, and has experienced radical Islam, Muslim Brotherhood style. I would not call it just the usual. people like Wafa Sultan know that they sacrifice alot, some would say everything, in taking the stand that they do, they risk their lives, they give up all the comfort of normal life, and they are placed under security. I cannot shrug such people as the usual. people like Salman Rushdie, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and Sultan.

 

[Kathryn]

I like what she said about the danger of stripping people of their compassion.

Yes, that was the comment that really spoke to me as well. I also liked that she pointed out the marked differences between Jesus' approach and Muhammed's approach. Very objective on her part.

She really hit the nail on the head when discussing the Palestinian problem. How COULD compassionate people be against the Palestinian CHILDREN for pete's sake? No compassionate person could be in favor of burdening those children with such restraints on their potential. But she tells the Palestinians to challenge their leaders with "What have YOU DONE for our cause?"

She very rightly categorizes the Palestinian issue as a religious RATHER THAN POLITICAL issue.

Forty years ago, the Palestinians were about 40% CHRISTIAN. Now they are about 2% Christian. That in itself is an interesting tidbit of information.

 

[Caladan]

Forty years ago, the Palestinians were about 40% CHRISTIAN. Now they are about 2% Christian. That in itself is an interesting tidbit of information.

I think you are confusing other regional religious demographic Kathryn, what sources are you reading?

 

[Kathryn]

Here's an excellent article on the Palestinian "issue:"
American Thinker: Why Islam Will Never Accept the State of Israel
"Why Islam Will Never Accept the State of Israel

By Steven Simpson


It is a common belief that the "Arab-Israeli conflict" is a conflict of two peoples fighting over the same piece of land and is therefore one of nationalism. Rarely, if ever, do we hear or read of the religious component to this conflict.

However, if anything, the conflict is more of a "Muslim-Jewish" one than an "Arab-Israeli" one. In other words, the conflict is based on religion -- Islam vs. Judaism -- cloaked in Arab nationalism vs. Zionism. The fact of the matter is that in every Arab-Israeli war, from 1948 to the present, cries of "jihad," "Allahu Akbar," and the bloodcurdling scream of "Idbah al- Yahud" (slaughter the Jews) have resonated amongst even the most secular of Arab leaders, be it Nasser in the 1950s and 1960s or the supposedly "secular" PLO of the 1960s to the present. Indeed, the question must be asked: If this is really a conflict of different nationalisms and not Islamic supremacism, then why is it that virtually no non-Arab Muslim states have full (if any) relations with Israel?

There is a common Arabic slogan that is chanted in the Middle East: "Khaybar, Khaybar! Oh Jews, remember. The armies of Muhammad are returning!" It would be most interesting to know how many people have ever heard what -- or more precisely, where -- Khaybar is, and what the Arabs mean by such a slogan. A short history of the Jews of Arabia is needed in order to explain this, and why Islam remains so inflexible in its hostile attitude towards Jews and Israel.

Until the founder of Islam, Muhammad ibn Abdallah, proclaimed himself "Messenger of Allah" in the 7th century, Jews and Arabs lived together peacefully in the Arabian Peninsula. Indeed, the Jews -- and Judaism -- were respected to such an extent that an Arab king converted to Judaism in the 5th century. His name was Dhu Nuwas, and he ruled over the Himyar (present day Yemen) area of the Arabian Peninsula. In fact, it is most likely that the city of Medina (the second-holiest city in Islam) -- then called Yathrib -- was originally founded by Jews. In any event, at the time of Muhammad's "calling," three important Jewish tribes existed in Arabia: Banu Qurayza, Banu Nadir, and Banu Qaynuqa.

Muhammad was very keen on having the Jews accept him as a prophet to the extent that he charged his followers not to eat pig and to pray in the direction of Jerusalem. However, the Jews apparently were not very keen on Muhammad, his proclamation of himself as a prophet, or his poor knowledge of the Torah (Hebrew Bible). Numerous verbal altercations are recorded in the Qur'an and various Hadiths about these conflicts between the Jewish tribes and Muhammad.

Eventually, the verbal conflicts turned into physical conflicts, and when the Jews outwardly rejected Muhammad as the "final seal of the prophets," he turned on them with a vengeance. The atrocities that were committed against these tribes are too numerous to cite in a single article, but two tribes, the Qaynuqa and Nadir, were expelled from their villages by Muhammad. It appears that the Qaynuqa left Arabia around 624 A.D. The refugees of the Nadir settled in the village of Khaybar.

In 628 A.D., Muhammad turned on the last Jewish tribe, the Qurayza, claiming that they were in league with Muhammad's Arab pagan enemies and had "betrayed" him. Muhammad and his army besieged the Qurayza, and after a siege of over three weeks, the Qurayza surrendered. While many Arabs pleaded with Muhammad to let the Qurayza leave unmolested, Muhammad had other plans. Unlike expelling the Qaynuqa and Nadir, Muhammad exterminated the Qurayza, with an estimated 600 to 900 Jewish men being beheaded in one day. The women and children were sold into slavery, and Muhammad took one of the widows, Rayhana, as a "concubine."

In 629 A.D., Muhammad led a campaign against the surviving Jews of Nadir, now living in Khaybar. The battle was again bloody and barbaric, and the survivors of the massacre were either expelled or allowed to remain as "second-class citizens." Eventually, upon the ascension of Omar as caliph, most Jews were expelled from Arabia around the year 640 A.D.

This brings us, then, to the question of why modern-day Muslims still boast of the slaughter of the Jewish tribes and the Battle of Khaybar. The answer lies in what the Qur'an -- and later on, the various Hadiths -- says about the Jews. The Qur'an is replete with verses that can be described only as virulently anti-Semitic. The amount of Surahs is too numerous to cite, but a few will suffice: Surah 2:75 (Jews distorted the Torah); 2:91 (Jews are prophet-killers), 4:47 (Jews have distorted the Bible and have incurred condemnation from Allah for breaking the Sabbath), 5:60 (Jews are cursed, and turned into monkeys and pigs), and 5:82 (Jews and pagans are the strongest in enmity to the Muslims and Allah). And of course, there is the genocidal Hadith from Sahih Bukhari, 4:52:177, which would make Adolph Hitler proud. "The Day of Judgment will not have come until you fight with the Jews, and the stones and the trees behind which a Jew will be hiding will say: 'O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!"' Thus, the Arab Muslims had their own "final solution" in store for the Jews already in the 7th century.

The fact that Muslims still point to these (and many other) hateful verses in the Qur'an and Hadith should give Jews -- not just Israelis -- pause to consider if there can ever be true peace between Muslims and Jews, let alone between Muslims and Israel. When the armies of Islam occupied the area of Byzantine "Palestine" in the 7th century, the land became part of "Dar al-Islam" (House of Islam). Until that area is returned to Islam, (i.e., Israel's extermination), she remains part of "Dar al harb" (House of War). It now becomes clear that this is a conflict of religious ideology and not a conflict over a piece of "real estate."

Finally, one must ask the question: Aside from non-Arab Turkey, whose relations with Israel are presently teetering on the verge of collapse, why is it that no other non-Arab Muslim country in the Middle East has ever had full relations (if any at all) with Israel, such as faraway countries like Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan? Indeed, why would Persian Iran -- conquered by the Arabs -- have such a deep hatred for Jews and Israel, whereas a non-Muslim country such as India does not feel such enmity? The answer is painfully clear: The contempt in which the Qur'an and other Islamic writings hold Jews does not exist in the scriptures of the Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, and other Eastern religions. Therefore, people that come from non-Muslim states do not have this inherent hatred towards Jews, and by extension, towards Israel. But when a people -- or peoples -- is raised with a scripture that regards another people and religion as immoral and less than human, then it is axiomatic why such hatred and disdain exists on the part of Muslims for Jews and Israel.

Islam -- as currently interpreted and practiced -- cannot accept a Jewish state of any size in its midst. Unless Muslims come to terms with their holy writings vis-à-vis Jews, Judaism, and Israel and go through some sort of "reformation," it will be unlikely that true peace will ever come to the Middle East. In the meantime, unless Islam reforms, Israel should accept the fact that the Muslims will never accept Israel as a permanent fact in the Middle East."
End of article

If that battle cry of "Khaybar, Khaybar! Oh Jews, remember. The armies of Muhammad are returning!" sounds familiar, IT SHOULD. It was recently chanted by the Islamic militants and protestors who boarded the flotilla off the coast of Israel just a few weeks ago.

Gaza jihad flotilla participants chanted Islamic battle cry invoking Muhammad's massacre of Jews - Jihad Watch

It's a religious war, people. Not only the conflict in Israel, but 9-11 and the aftermath of 9-11, and the continued terrorist attacks by radical Muslims to this present day. Those who insist on cloaking the attacks and the war against them as POLITICAL conflicts rather than RELIGIOUS are either:

1) trying too damn hard to be politically correct (at best),
2) clueless,
3) in a perpetual state of denial, or
4) deceptive.

 

[Badran]

In our times, Islamist terrorism has effected and distorted the fabric of life in all continents, Europe, Asia, Africa, North and South America, even Australia were all effected by radical Islam.
I realize that many Muslims do not want anything to do with violence, or even hatred, I understand and highly respect that, however it is also hard for me to deny just how easy it is to use the material of the Qur'an and some basic aspects of Islam to justify strife. nowdays there is a battle in society and the media to understand the difference between radical Islam and moderate Islam, and I hope that this is what we are doing here as well. I think the only way to get to the root of the core issues, is by honesty, and by expressing our piece of mind.

Caladan, now we are back to square one. This method you're using have been the core problem. Once again, most muslims do not use the Quran in this fashion. You're highlighting the actions of extremists, i know this takes place. But once again their actions can not be blamed on Islam when so many muslims learn the same religion and do not act this way. Also, once again this comes down to the intentions of these extreme examples. You're assuming they are all doing this for religious reasons, which is not true, or at least can't be verified.

And, this happens in other religions as well. It's only a question of why is the ratio higher in Islam. Which is a discussion that we and others have had before, and we could have it again if you want, but this doesn't mean that Islam is an evil religion or that it tells people to kill others. There is no radical and moderate Islam, there is Islam, and people's implementation of it. So, there is radical muslims, and peaceful muslims.

But do most Muslims put in mind the difference between today and back then? when there are Arab TV programs that display Jews as the the killers of the prophets for example, it is obvious that there are Muslims who will always have this traditional bias that Jews are some form of an evil seed.

Of course there might always be muslims like that. But once again, there are various reasons for this, or various possible reasons. A very important one is whats happening in palestine. Let me ask you a question, and i'll take your word for it, because i don't know any jews in my personal life. Isn't there some jews who feel the same hatred for muslims?

Also, this kind of hatred is found every where in various sorts of ways. Just like there will always be people who hate african american and view them as a bad seed. This is human attributes.

And there are just as much people debating how these verses ARE unjust to women.

Well, that goes without saying. How can we debate that these verses are just to women, without others viewing them as unjust.

However what we have here is a woman from Muslim background, born in a Muslim country, lived in a Muslim country, and has experienced radical Islam, Muslim Brotherhood style. I would not call it just the usual. people like Wafa Sultan know that they sacrifice alot, some would say everything, in taking the stand that they do, they risk their lives, they give up all the comfort of normal life, and they are placed under security. I cannot shrug such people as the usual. people like Salman Rushdie, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and Sultan.

Now you're back to discussing her credibility. This is not about her, i'm not discrediting her in general, i'm discrediting what she said in this particular video.

 

[Kathryn]

I think you are confusing other regional religious demographic Kathryn, what sources are you reading?

I've read those figures in numerous publications over the years and don't recall all of the sources, but I'll do a quick Google to substantiate that statement:

These are the current demographics:

Palestinian Christians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's an excerpt from that article:

"Estimates of the number of Arab Christians in the Arab world vary. Christians today make up 9.2% of the population of the Near East. In Lebanon they now number around 39% of the population, in Syria about 10 to 15%, in Jordan around 5%. In Palestine before the creation of Israel in 1948, estimates ranged up to as much as 40%,[citation needed] but mass emigration has slashed the number still present to 3.8%. Palestinian Christians in Israel constitute 2.1% (or roughly 10% of the population of Arab citizens of Israel)."

The Palestinian Christian : betrayed, persecuted, sacrificed

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/11/world/middleeast/11christians.html


Interesting article:
'When did you become Christian?' Identity and perception of Christian Palestinians - Blog Post

Excerpt:

"The number of Christians has decreased over the years mostly due to flight and emigration as a direct consequence of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but also due to assimilation in earlier history when Islam became dominant in the region. The first large wave of refugees, among which were many Christians, was created with "Al-Nakba", the catastrophe, as Palestinians label the exodus of 1948. At the height of the 1948 events more than 50,000 Christians left Palestine which at that time translated into 35 percent of the entire Christian Palestinian population. The 1967 Six Day War was responsible for the further decrease of Christian presence in the region. Yet, from 1967 onwards a constant and massive flow of emigration took place. While it is certainly true that Christian and Muslim Palestinians suffered equally from the consequences of the regional conflict, Christians with their predominantly middle class background left in proportionally higher numbers.

Speaking of identity, it is critical to understand that Christian Palestinians are not more or less Arab than their Muslim counterparts. This is not at all a paradox or a contradiction as often believed. In fact, quite the contrary is the case since Palestinian Christians have a history dating back to the first century. Thus, linking Arabs exclusively to Islam does not only run counter the history of the Middle East and Palestine but also counter the history of Christianity."

Most of the sources I'm looking at state that the mass exodus of Christians began in 1948. Even this article from the Jewish Virtual Library claims that the Christian population in the Palestinian territories was at least 15% in 1950 (two years after the Christians began leaving the country in droves).

CNSNews.com - Palestinian Christians Suffering ‘Severe Blows’ From Muslims, Muslim Says

CAMERA: Reuters fails to root out facts on Palestinian Christians

Palestinian Christians Exodus - IslamOnline.net - News


Palestinian Christian - eNotes.com Reference
"Estimates of the number of Arab Christians vary. Christians today make up 9.2% of the population of the Near East. In Lebanon they now number around 39% of the population, in Syria about 10 to 15%. In Palestine before the creation of Israel estimates range up to as much as 40%, but mass emigration has slashed the number still present to 3.8%. Israel Arab Christians constitute 2.1% (or roughly 10% of the Israeli Arab population). In Egypt, they constitute between 9-16% of the population (the government claims 6%). Around two-thirds of North and South American and Australian Arabs are Christian, particularly from Lebanon, but also from the Palestinian territories, and Syria."

Arab Christians - eNotes.com Reference

When I googled this, so many references supporting those figures showed up that I can't possibly post them all.

 

[Caladan]

Caladan, now we are back to square one. This method you're using have been the core problem. Once again, most muslims do not use the Quran in this fashion. You're highlighting the actions of extremists, i know this takes place. But once again their actions can not be blamed on Islam when so many muslims learn the same religion and do not act this way. Also, once again this comes down to the intentions of these extreme examples. You're assuming they are all doing this for religious reasons, which is not true, or at least can't be verified.

But these extremists and the masses of extremist crowd behind them are a menace in our world today. and again, as someone who has read the Qur'an and other material, its easy for me to see how violence and hatred can be justified from it.
Its the opinion of Sultan that Islamic doctrine is behind such strife, well at least to some degree we know she is right, we also know that nations which work hard to implement Islamic doctrine end up as dystopian countries, like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

And, this happens in other religions as well. It's only a question of why is the ratio higher in Islam. Which is a discussion that we and others have had before, and we could have it again if you want, but this doesn't mean that Islam is an evil religion or that it tells people to kill others. There is no radical and moderate Islam, there is Islam, and people's implementation of it. So, there is radical muslims, and peaceful muslims.

I dont think there are 'evil religions', I think there are simply religions, and that they have a significant baggage that influences the believers, I dont believe that all Muslims are out to kill us, however some Muslims are doing their best to do it and they justify their actions by their religion. so it does seem as there are radical Muslims and moderate Muslims. however if you say that there is simply Islam and people's implementation, then we do see how very possible it is to back violence with Islamic dogma.

Of course there might always be muslims like that. But once again, there are various reasons for this, or various possible reasons. A very important one is whats happening in palestine. Let me ask you a question, and i'll take your word for it, because i don't know any jews in my personal life. Isn't there some jews who feel the same hatred for muslims?

Sorry but I never bought the Palestine issue. many Muslims seem to make the Israeli-Palestinian conflict their personal obsession at all costs, but why dont I hear from these Muslims anything about the hundreds of thousands killed and millions of refugees in the inter-Muslim conflict in Africa?
furthermore if Muslims justify strife against Israelis because the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, they are to me a threat to security and their justification becomes a topic for study and not a point for consideration.
as for Jews and their sentiments towards Muslims, obviously there are Jews who have ill feelings and negative sentiments towards Muslims.

Also, this kind of hatred is found every where in various sorts of ways. Just like there will always be people who hate african american and view them as a bad seed. This is human attributes.

I dont buy that. are there TV shows in America that promote the idea that African Americans are anti-Christ?

Now you're back to discussing her credibility. This is not about her, i'm not discrediting her in general, i'm discrediting what she said in this particular video.

Well its encouraging to hear that you are not discrediting her in general.

 

[Caladan]

Thanks for the sources Kathryn.

 

[Badran]

But these extremists and the masses of extremist crowd behind them are a menace in our world today. and again, as someone who has read the Qur'an and other material, its easy for me to see how violence and hatred can be justified from it.

What menace? what about the menace of the US who can't keep their military out of other people's countries? Isn't that terrorism too?

Justifying, or in other words passing it off as if there actions are encouraged by the Quran is something, and wether or not it is so is another. There is a clear rule in Islam, regardless of how many muslims broke it, we can NOT be the aggressors, pure and simple. The reasons for the higher state of extremism in Islam today than other religions we already discussed, and if you're convinced it's because of Islam, thats up to you. However, this logic is no different than pointing at the negative of any culture, religion, country, and blaming these things for these actions, instead of the individuals.

Its the opinion of Sultan that Islamic doctrine is behind such strife, well at least to some degree we know she is right, we also know that nations which work hard to implement Islamic doctrine end up as dystopian countries, like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

You know she is right, i know she is lying and dead wrong. Extremism and terrorism is found every where, in all shapes and all forms. Blaming it on a religion could not be any weaker argument. Her opinion means nothing, she backed it up with nothing. Her attempt is not new, there is nothing special here that haven't been done before. The only difference is that her arguments are one of the weakest i have seen.

I dont think there are 'evil religions', I think there are simply religions, and that they have a significant baggage that influences the believers, I dont believe that all Muslims are out to kill us, however some Muslims are doing their best to do it and they justify their actions by their religion. so it does seem as there are radical Muslims and moderate Muslims. however if you say that there is simply Islam and people's implementation, then we do see how very possible it is to back violence with Islamic dogma.

There justifications and arguments to explain how there actions are justifiable is not bought by the majority of muslims. It is pure nonsense. Nothing can justify suicide bombing, nothing can justify killing civilians, nothing can justify these acts. Only may be young desperate youth with poor knowledge would buy these arguments. That's why the majority of muslims do not fit this description, and thats why blaming Islam is simply wrong, and leaves the real problems unsolved.

Sorry but I never bought the Palestine issue. many Muslims seem to make the Israeli-Palestinian conflict their personal obsession at all costs, but why dont I hear from these Muslims anything about the hundreds of thousands killed and millions of refugees in the inter-Muslim conflict in Africa?

The palestinian conflict has a huge effect of many people's position. It is the main attention in the media, it has been a conflict for a very long time, and some of the countries in the middle east has been to war with Israel, thats why it has more attention.

furthermore if Muslims justify strife against Israelis because the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, they are to me a threat to security and their justification becomes a topic for study and not a point for consideration.

What does this part mean? Israel government is causing and caused the deaths of countless palestinians, do you actually expect us to have no problem with that?

And by the way, that doesn't mean i support any terrorism against Israel civilians, and i don't support Hamas and i'm against them. But i also have a huge problem with the Israel government, and i'm against them, just like i'm against the US government and it's actions in Iraq for example.

As for the last part, about the difference between the Israel situation and other similar situation, thats a completely different topic.

as for Jews and their sentiments towards Muslims, obviously there are Jews who have ill feelings and negative sentiments towards Muslims.

So, it is so both ways. (not all of course), so i can't see why muslims are the ones always blamed.

I dont buy that. are there TV shows in America that promote the idea that African Americans are anti-Christ?

Of course not. However like i said, there are differences in the societies and the cultures, which is reflected also on the media of each culture. However, these things or the generalizations against jews is not the case with all muslims.

 

[Shia Islam]

Female Arab talks sense

Let us discuss what she said:

1. At the begging she said a general statement:
Islam is not sense:
Response:
Always refuse general statements that are not based on evidences.

2. She said that Islam claims that women have less intellectual reasoning than men.
Response:
She misunderstood the fact that Islam indicated that women is more passionate than men and this may affect their reactions in certain situations negatively.

3. She talked that a claimed incident during which Muslims killed a breastfeeding woman and the she claimed that the prophet approved it.
Response:
This contradict the teaching of Islam. The prophet prohibited attacking women in wars.

4. Then she talked about al-Qaradawi.
Response:
Al-Qaradawi is devil …So what?

5. She claimed that Islam is calling for killing the unbelievers.
Response :
This contradicts the fact that Christians and Jews lived for centuries as minorities within the Islamic States.

6. She talked about what she described as a dominant negative language of Islam that is heard today:
Response:
The radical Muslims have spread all over the world; also the terrorists can't be underestimated…
However there is also a moderate Islam.


7. She pointed to many Hadiths, without knowing whether they are authentic or not, and without trying to study their meanings. She also tried to compare Christianity to Islam, with overlooking what is in the bible of things that she is criticizing herself.

8. Then she started to talk politics!

 

[Caladan]

What menace? what about the menace of the US who can't keep their military out of other people's countries? Isn't that terrorism too?

You will find that pehaps most American members on RF do not shy away from criticizing American policies, in addition US foreign policy is not the topic of the video, the video presents a Muslim woman criticizing Islam, just like our resident Americans criticize the US.

Justifying, or in other words passing it off as if there actions are encouraged by the Quran is something, and wether or not it is so is another. There is a clear rule in Islam, regardless of how many muslims broke it, we can NOT be the aggressors, pure and simple. The reasons for the higher state of extremism in Islam today than other religions we already discussed, and if you're convinced it's because of Islam, thats up to you. However, this logic is no different than pointing at the negative of any culture, religion, country, and blaming these things for these actions, instead of the individuals.

Islam has been involved in inner conflicts and outter conflicts since its inception. if its because of tribalism, politics, and culture or religion.

You know she is right, i know she is lying and dead wrong. Extremism and terrorism is found every where, in all shapes and all forms. Blaming it on a religion could not be any weaker argument. Her opinion means nothing, she backed it up with nothing. Her attempt is not new, there is nothing special here that haven't been done before. The only difference is that her arguments are one of the weakest i have seen.

I agree that exremism is found in all societies, however reality to day is that there are global networks of terror and they back their ideology up with the Qur'an and with their religion. the fact that I'm aware of radical Islam, does not mean I am not aware of other forms of extremism.

There justifications and arguments to explain how there actions are justifiable is not bought by the majority of muslims. It is pure nonsense. Nothing can justify suicide bombing, nothing can justify killing civilians, nothing can justify these acts. Only may be young desperate youth with poor knowledge would buy these arguments. That's why the majority of muslims do not fit this description, and thats why blaming Islam is simply wrong, and leaves the real problems unsolved.

This is a point I can appreciate alot. because I do realize that terrorism thrives in poverty or with impressionable young men, so I am willing to listen and explore with you the dimension of differing interpretations of the same faith, however for a long time, beyond the terrorists, I have also recognized a large crowd in Muslim societies which is easily influenced by a strong bias against Jews, towards the West (in this case, it could be said to be a justified bias), and a strong crowd which sometimes drinks up superstitions too easily.

The palestinian conflict has a huge effect of many people's position. It is the main attention in the media, it has been a conflict for a very long time, and some of the countries in the middle east has been to war with Israel, thats why it has more attention.

Good point. however the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has become some sort of a sacred cow, a source of an appeal to martydom, where people give in to emotions and refuse to analyze the political reality. furthermore, there have been much more destructive conflicts inside the Muslim world itself, and many of us get the feeling that for many Muslims it is simply seen as business as usual.

What does this part mean? Israel government is causing and caused the deaths of countless palestinians, do you actually expect us to have no problem with that?

'Countless' is an exaggeration, with all the media attention, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict did not result in a high number of casualties, as it stands much of the sources would put the number of casualties in a time of more than 2 decades in about 10,000, in the 70's the Jordanian government in 1 month alone according to Palestinian sources killed between 10-25,000 Palestinians.

And by the way, that doesn't mean i support any terrorism against Israel civilians, and i don't support Hamas and i'm against them. But i also have a huge problem with the Israel government, and i'm against them, just like i'm against the US government and it's actions in Iraq for example.

At one point however, Arab governments are going to have to pull themselves together and stop ignoring the fact that there has been a state of Israel for over 60 years in this region, and at this point, it is the Israeli government they will have to deal with, some elements in the Arab political sphere already work to normalize relations with the Israelis. its sort of a back and forth game, whenever the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts escalates these relations are pushed behind the scenes, as if to please the crowds.

As for the last part, about the difference between the Israel situation and other similar situation, thats a completely different topic.

Im interested to know in what ways do you believe its different, and also how do you see it at all.

So, it is so both ways. (not all of course), so i can't see why muslims are the ones always blamed.

Muslims are not the ones always blamed. in this forum it seems that the Muslim members exclusively blame Israel, further more in world media the criticism seems to be divided and placed on all sides.

Of course not. However like i said, there are differences in the societies and the cultures, which is reflected also on the media of each culture. However, these things or the generalizations against jews is not the case with all muslims.

What cultural and social differences do you personally see?
well I hope that many Muslims don't by generalizations, but I can't deny that many do, the fact that there are tv programs for Muslim viewers which present Jews as enemies of God is disturbing.

 

[mho123]

[youtube]ir_JNPn_GNM[/youtube]
YouTube - Well Known Arab American Psychiatrist Blasts Islam

its a pitty its in arabic and the underttiteling is covered wioth ads,,

 

[mho123]

its a pitty its in arabic and the underttiteling is covered wioth ads,,

What kind of rubbish is this ,, she is examinning the koran under microscope and telling us about the context of it ????
if you look at it under microscope you will see a few bacteria ,, nothing else,..what a garbage ,

 

[Octavia156]

What kind of rubbish is this ,, she is examinning the koran under microscope and telling us about the context of it ????
if you look at it under microscope you will see a few bacteria ,, nothing else,..what a garbage ,

why is examining the Koran under the microscop and explaining its context 'rubbish'?

Look under any microscope and you see bacteria - whats your point?

 

[Badran]

You will find that pehaps most American members on RF do not shy away from criticizing American policies, in addition US foreign policy is not the topic of the video, the video presents a Muslim woman criticizing Islam, just like our resident Americans criticize the US.

Oh i certainly didn't mean to imply that, in my brief time here, i'm impressed by how easily a lot of members here criticize their own governments. I was saying or giving an example of terrorism that also poses a menace, and destroy people's lives, to show that terrorism is not exclusive to muslims, nor do muslims pose the biggest menace.

Islam has been involved in inner conflicts and outter conflicts since its inception. if its because of tribalism, politics, and culture or religion.

I can't see the point of this part. My point was that in Islam we can't be the aggressors.

I agree that exremism is found in all societies, however reality to day is that there are global networks of terror and they back their ideology up with the Qur'an and with their religion. the fact that I'm aware of radical Islam, does not mean I am not aware of other forms of extremism.

I didn't mean that, i was saying that since terrorism is found every where, we can not and should not come to conclusion that Islam is the cause of these evils. Especially, when their actions contradicts with the teachings.

This is a point I can appreciate alot. because I do realize that terrorism thrives in poverty or with impressionable young men, so I am willing to listen and explore with you the dimension of differing interpretations of the same faith, however for a long time, beyond the terrorists, I have also recognized a large crowd in Muslim societies which is easily influenced by a strong bias against Jews, towards the West (in this case, it could be said to be a justified bias), and a strong crowd which sometimes drinks up superstitions too easily.

Yes i understand what you're saying, this kind of behavior is found and i see it too. If you consider it for a while, and look at the conditions of the places where this is found, and where it obviously becomes more evident, i think you would agree these are problems with the society or the culture. I can not accurately analyze this, but for example, in southern egypt, where undeveloped areas and poverty are of high rates, you see this behavior much more found. Also, you see the same problems between muslims and christians as well. While in the big cities these problems are almost inexistent.

Good point. however the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has become some sort of a sacred cow, a source of an appeal to martydom, where people give in to emotions and refuse to analyze the political reality. furthermore, there have been much more destructive conflicts inside the Muslim world itself, and many of us get the feeling that for many Muslims it is simply seen as business as usual.

I agree. Lots of people tend to get more emotional and less rational when it comes to this issue, in comparison to other places where muslims are also persecuted and facing problems.

'Countless' is an exaggeration, with all the media attention, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict did not result in a high number of casualties, as it stands much of the sources would put the number of casualties in a time of more than 2 decades in about 10,000, in the 70's the Jordanian government in 1 month alone according to Palestinian sources killed between 10-25,000 Palestinians.

It was not my point that the casualties are of the highest form. I was saying, since the start of this, an extremely huge number of palestinians have been killed, not in comparison to other atrocities, but a huge number in itself, which is something neither forgivable or should be tolerated in anyway. Just like i oppose the atrocities committed anywhere, including atrocities committed by muslims, and any other governments including what the US did in Iraq.

At one point however, Arab governments are going to have to pull themselves together and stop ignoring the fact that there has been a state of Israel for over 60 years in this region, and at this point, it is the Israeli government they will have to deal with, some elements in the Arab political sphere already work to normalize relations with the Israelis. its sort of a back and forth game, whenever the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts escalates these relations are pushed behind the scenes, as if to please the crowds.

Depends on what you mean by deal. We should not for example have a relation with a government that is causing the death of palestinians, and one more time just so you don't think i'm being emotional, including the US as long as they are in Iraq.

Im interested to know in what ways do you believe its different, and also how do you see it at all.

Well, as a general picture, the difference is that in Palestine's case, there is the problem of occupation, the illegal immigrations, unlike Iraq where it is basically a military invasion. In general i mean that it is more complicated in Israel's case.

My main problem is with the government, not with jews or non-muslim arabs who live there and were born there. The government for me must be tried for the crimes they have committed. Palestinians must be given their homes back.

I also believe that Bush should be tried by the way, and anybody who committed atrocities of any kind.

Muslims are not the ones always blamed. in this forum it seems that the Muslim members exclusively blame Israel, further more in world media the criticism seems to be divided and placed on all sides.

Well, some try to use the ill feelings that some muslims hold against jews as an example to pin on Islam, so my point was that this behavior is not exclusive to muslims.

What cultural and social differences do you personally see?
well I hope that many Muslims don't by generalizations, but I can't deny that many do, the fact that there are tv programs for Muslim viewers which present Jews as enemies of God is disturbing.

It is disturbing.

For the cultural and social differences, i believe that things like poverty, and very very poor education, usually results in social ideas that are not very healthy. People are less knowledgeable. And when you have some ignorant scholars spreading their ideas, it also helps in breeding that sort of society. In other words, i believe the conditions of a lot of the muslim countries, play a great factor in the ideas and values that the society holds. Remember that not all people are very religious to start with, even if they adhere to a certain religion.

 

[Octavia156]

My point was that in Islam we can't be the aggressors.

Unless you are defending the principles of Allah - right?

Badran I'm finding it so difficult to appreciate your posts, when you say people who accuse Islam of being aggressive are lying, and claim that any act of violence in Islam is forbidden.

Are you talking about Islam? Or your own brand of Islam?
Are you choosing to focus on one particular part of the Qu'ran or a Hadith? What is your response to all the quotes that do encourage violence toward non-believers - do you simply choose to ignore them? Or do you interpret them differently?


:candle:

People speak very highly of you on here Badran, and I'd like to learn from you.. but I just cannot get my head around how ignorant some of your posts seem to me! I know I must appear very ignorant also, and I am! But know I'm not attacking your belief in Allah, or your relationship with Islam - which at times appears positively enlightened - I'm attacking the political Ideology that is being practised in Islamic countries today.
What is going on as a result of this religion, be it extremist, fundamental or just normal practise is totally and utterly in opposite to my philosophical and moral viewpoint, in which the total liberation of the individual is paramount.

And its no good providing defensive arguments by comparision with Western social ills... yes we have them.. every society has them in some form. But what every society doesn't have is freedom.
I have freedom. As a western female eveything is possible for me. I am completely free to do my will, whatever that may be. And no law will condemn me to physical harm or death.
I can go where I will, I can work where I will, I can dress how I will, I can create what I will, I can eat and drink what I will and I can love who I will, when, where with whom I will... and noone will deny me these rights.

No social ills, however sordid or dark they may be are new. The dark side of human nature has always been there... only now its more visible. There have always been child-rapers, serial killers, mass murderers... only now we all know about them, instead of them being confined to the community they effect. The point is, being in a strict religious state does NOT cure the dark side of humanity, if anything it makes it acceptable. Look at Catholicism!!

Still, there's nothing so dark that would persuade me to live without freedom.

 

[Badran]

Unless you are defending the principles of Allah - right?

Perhaps you could specify what you mean exactly by this, it is too wide.

Badran I'm finding it so difficult to appreciate your posts, when you say people who accuse Islam of being aggressive are lying, and claim that any act of violence in Islam is forbidden.

Not any act of violence, for example when i defend myself that is not wrong. However aggression is forbidden in Islam. Also, what i object to is saying Islam is violent, instead of some muslims are violent. Because just like there are some who are so, there are much more others who aren't.

I have no problem with someone criticizing anything about Islam. Since i joined, Islam has been under constant criticism, and i don't mind that. What i do mind, with what Wafa Sultan has said for example, is the dishonesty. May be because you are not very familiar with Islam you can't see why she is being dishonest, but she is. I don't assume anybody who criticizes Islam to be a liar, but there are some who publish propaganda with very little truth that would hold up in the eyes of anyone who is not very familiar with Islam.

Are you talking about Islam? Or your own brand of Islam?
Are you choosing to focus on one particular part of the Qu'ran or a Hadith?

Islam in general. Also, there are things done under the name of Islam that i personally condemn, like guys who blow themselves up killing civilians and such things.

Another thing, there is a lot of misunderstandings regarding the Quran and the Hadiths, which we are all the time addressing here. For a very obvious example, some verses i have been asked about were referring to unbelievers of a certain time and incident, and people take it as referring to all unbelievers. They think for example that we're supposed to kill or fight all unbelievers, which an understandable thing for someone who is not familiar with the quran or the teachings in general, and i've been asked such questions here.

What is your response to all the quotes that do encourage violence toward non-believers - do you simply choose to ignore them? Or do you interpret them differently?
:candle:

No of course i don't ignore anything. There is no such concept as violence towards unbelievers. Most of the verses in the Quran talking about non-believers are referring to certain unbelievers of a certain incidents that happened in the past, and people so often misunderstand it, and i have been asked more than once about such verses, and people did indeed misunderstand and think that this is addressed or aimed at unbelievers in general.

Quite simply, there is no such thing as violence towards unbelievers, it contradicts with everything.