Feminism - has it achieved anything?

[idea]

WHAT????

Feminism hasn't turned me into a man, for pete's sake. I'm very girly, very feminine, and very proud of it.

And my husband is very proud that I am able to take care of myself independently, if the need arises. In fact, he was bragging to his son the other day (my stepson), who was bemoaning the fact that his mother (my husband's ex wife) doesn't have a job. He said, "Come on, Dad, what can she really do? She doesn't have a degree, you know." My husband said, "Your step mother doesn't either, and she's perfectly able to take care of herself financially - and did so for years before we got married."

I have NEVER picked up any sort of message that women can't be both feminists as well as tender, caring, loving mothers or wives or whatever.

For heavens' sake - what on earth makes you think that a woman can't have a successful career, OR CHOOSE NOT TO, and still embody the best attributes of femininity? You mean a woman can't be successful in her career and still be loving and tender? And is it up to women to be selfless? Just what do you mean by that anyway?

Honestly, it sounds like you are superimposing some of your own issues on the issue of feminism.

The bolded statement I think is a problem. To see women who have devoted their lives to motherhood as being somehow inferiour to women who work in other fields (and these are both fields of work btw - just different ones) is wrong, and is a product of feminism.

Would you look down on someone who does volunteer work for free in some poverty stricken foreign country? No - as a society we celebrate volunteers who give their time freely to help others succeed. Why is motherhood not celebrated in like manner? Why is it not enough to be a mother?

Medicine, energy, science, and art, engineering - it's worthless without the people they are designed to serve. Everyone is working to make a better future for who? for children currently in our midst. Out of all of it, the most important work is the work of motherhood.

I think it is wrong to look down on women (or anyone) who have decided to dedicate their lives to volunteer work, community work, and family work. jmo.

what can she really do?

What can she really do?

If you had the choice of marrying someone who has a degree (but is unable to keep a family together) vs. someone who does not have a degree - but is loving/selfless - knows how to listen, how to keep a fam together - which would you choose? Is it more important to know how to fix a computer? or fix a family?

not all stay-at-home moms are what they should be - but there are women who exist that do make life heaven on earth for everyone around them. Their funerals are well-attended, their worth within their community and family is far above anything any paying job could give.


I'm not saying you can't have a job and be loving (I have a job and a degree) but there is something to be said for quality AND quantity. Kids (especially younger ones) need time. As much as everyone thinks it's possible - you cannot do it all. Spending time with one thing, means giving up time with another. There are different seasons of life, different circumstances - but for those who decide to raise children instead of concentrate on a career? there is no shame in that - people should not look down on that as being "she can't do anything".

The most important things in life do not happen at work.

 

[Me Myself]

There are fringe elements who see women as superior as there are plenty of fringe elements who see men as superior. They're not called masculinists, they're called 'the people who've been running things for a long time.' There's a lot of complex stuff about how patriarchy works and why your fears about a female supremacist ... i don't know regime? ... are so beyond unlikely that it reads as a distraction to a conversation rather than a serious attempt at one. Not saying that you are, but such quibbles typically are an attempt to avoid talking about actual inequality and instead complaining about the name.

I am not saying feminism should stop, I am saying that to the least we need to be wary. It is human nature, not only male but female naturaly to want to have privileges. And when one feels oppressed, further more one may forget the measures of equality when one frees oneseñf from such oppression.

I am not saying women don´t need people voguing for their rights, I am just aware of things like what GeneCosta presented. Males also have table turned in many areas. It shouldn´t be like that. It should be that we have it too easy on some and too hard in others because that´s twice the injustice.

If we are going to have feminism, then naturaly we need "Maleism" as a counterpart. We should have a fiscal and a defense attourney I believe, with time and that incredulity you show that I bolded, everything can happen under the heavens.

 

[Drolefille]

The bolded statement I think is a problem. To see women who have devoted their lives to motherhood as being somehow inferiour to women who work in other fields (and these are both fields of work btw - just different ones) is wrong, and is a product of feminism.

Would you look down on someone who does volunteer work for free in some poverty stricken foreign country? No - as a society we celebrate volunteers who give their time freely to help others succeed. Why is motherhood not celebrated in like manner? Why is it not enough to be a mother?

Medicine, energy, science, and art, engineering - it's worthless without the people they are designed to serve. Everyone is working to make a better future for who? for children currently in our midst. Out of all of it, the most important work is the work of motherhood.

I think it is wrong to look down on women (or anyone) who have decided to dedicate their lives to volunteer work, community work, and family work. jmo.

Feminism doesn't - as a philosophy - look down on women being mothers. Some feminists do, those feminists are 'doing it wrong.' One shouldn't rip on all of one faith for the idiocy of the few, similarly one shouldn't rip on all feminists for the fringe. This has been addressed before in this thread.

The concept of "women's work" comes from long before feminism and that, more than anything, degraded the traditional role of a woman in the home. If women's work is beneath men's work then why wouldn't someone aspire for 'greater.' But as I said, that came before feminism, that came from men. The increase in men willing to stay at home and raise kids is awesome. The decrease in ability for men OR women to stay at home and raise kids is economic and sad.

 

[Me Myself]

The bolded statement I think is a problem. To see women who have devoted their lives to motherhood as being somehow inferiour to women who work in other fields (and these are both fields of work btw - just different ones) is wrong, and is a product of feminism.

Would you look down on someone who does volunteer work for free in some poverty stricken foreign country? No - as a society we celebrate volunteers who give their time freely to help others succeed. Why is motherhood not celebrated in like manner? Why is it not enough to be a mother?

Medicine, energy, science, and art, engineering - it's worthless without the people they are designed to serve. Everyone is working to make a better future for who? for children currently in our midst. Out of all of it, the most important work is the work of motherhood.

I think it is wrong to look down on women (or anyone) who have decided to dedicate their lives to volunteer work, community work, and family work. jmo.

I think the idea is for them to have a choice. For men too I must add. A man can also stay at home without job but being a househusband . that of course, if the they arrange it like that between both of them and the economics allow it and etc. The thing is that a woman can be proud to be a housewife or a woman with a carrer, and so should the man. Its about being inclusive with the definitions of what gender can do I think.

 

[Drolefille]

I am not saying feminism should stop, I am saying that to the least we need to be wary. It is human nature, not only male but female naturaly to want to have privileges. And when one feels oppressed, further more one may forget the measures of equality when one frees oneseñf from such oppression.

I am not saying women don´t need people voguing for their rights, I am just aware of things like what GeneCosta presented. Males also have table turned in many areas. It shouldn´t be like that. It should be that we have it too easy on some and too hard in others because that´s twice the injustice.

If we are going to have feminism, then naturaly we need "Maleism" as a counterpart. We should have a fiscal and a defense attourney I believe, with time and that incredulity you show that I bolded, everything can happen under the heavens.

That's a bit like saying that white people should have been fighting for their rights in the US because black people were fighting for theirs. I mean it's only fair, right?

We don't naturally need "maleism." I quite frankly support the rights of any oppressed minority to speak up. If men were ever that oppressed minority I'd be right there holding up signs and fighting along with them. But they're not and I'm not going to pretend they are just to make them feel better.

 

[Me Myself]

That's a bit like saying that white people should have been fighting for their rights in the US because black people were fighting for theirs. I mean it's only fair, right?

If white people have some of their rights transgressed because of others being black, then probably.

We don't naturally need "maleism." I quite frankly support the rights of any oppressed minority to speak up. If men were ever that oppressed minority I'd be right there holding up signs and fighting along with them. But they're not and I'm not going to pretend they are just to make them feel better.

The problem is that is a oversimplyfication of human nature. Men are oppressed in some things, women in others.

I say genecosta has a case honestly.

I must ask:

In United states, if a man and a woman have sex and both were under influence of alcohol, can the woman sue the man because she was under alcohol influence when they had sex and as such was "raped" ? because if this is the case (as I´ve heard it is) even when they are BOTH drunk then we have a clear case of discrimination against the man here.

 

[gnosticx]

of course feminism worked or works just like every other ism out there....financed by the people on behalf of the illuminati and then let the dialectics of hegel do its work until a new age of thinking appears....on a more lighter side woman now select men for every reason other than his spirituality, they can vote for the most appealing candidate,they can do anything to a decent man and get away with it,can live by themselves and work and can now get their heads blown off in war just like men have done for thousands of years. call me ignorant but just like every ism power is eroded from the same people and given to the agenda of the elite......

 

[idea]

Feminism doesn't - as a philosophy - look down on women being mothers. Some feminists do, those feminists are 'doing it wrong.' One shouldn't rip on all of one faith for the idiocy of the few, similarly one shouldn't rip on all feminists for the fringe. This has been addressed before in this thread.

I'm not sure that there is a canonized tome containing an agreed upon by all philosophy for feminists, but I think there is an undercurrent that many feminists look down on motherhood. Not ripping on "all" feminists, just those who think stay-at-home-moms "don't do anything" as was implied by previous posts.

I am all for equal opportunities for all btw - just so it is not at the expense of degrading traditional choices.

 

[Drolefille]

I'm not sure that there is a canonized tome containing an agreed upon by all philosophy for feminists, but I think there is an undercurrent that many feminists look down on motherhood. Not ripping on "all" feminists, just those who think stay-at-home-moms "don't do anything" as was implied by previous posts.

I am all for equal opportunities for all btw - just so it is not at the expense of degrading traditional choices.

There's not a canonized tome for all Christians either - the Bible not withstanding there are many sects, no?

 

[idea]

one more point.

I went to an engineering school, that was traditionally male-heavy (80%-20% when I was there). They instituted scholarships etc. etc. to try and increase the # of women who went there. Yes - some women genuinely enjoyed engineering/science/math etc. etc. but there was also a bunch of women who were there - not because they liked engineering, but because they wanted to prove that they could do that / be that. There were feminist scholarships/programs encouraging women into fields that they really did not want to be in... if feminism is equally about celebrating women in all fields of work, it would be nice to see scholarships/programs that help women in all fields of work (and not predominantly in the male-dominated fields)

Not to group everyone into one basket - there are outlier / exceptions to every trend - but there are trends. women tend (not always, just tend) to naturally be better in nurturing/caregiving/social type work areas. Look at the % of teachers that are women, or % of social workers, or councilors etc. etc. that are women. This is not because they were forced into these jobs - for most it is because this is what they naturally enjoy and are good at.

 

[Kathryn]

The bolded statement I think is a problem. To see women who have devoted their lives to motherhood as being somehow inferiour to women who work in other fields (and these are both fields of work btw - just different ones) is wrong, and is a product of feminism.

You don't know the whole story, so you're jumping to conclusions. I do know why his mother doesn't have a good job - it's because she is now married to a man who makes a good living and she chooses not to work. Now that her only child is in college, she's suddenly poor mouthing about not being able to help with the expenses, when the reality is that her new husband is complaining about having to pay for his stepchild's college while his own mother (whose only son is now over 18) just expects him to pick up the tab while she sits at home.

She's choosing not to work, and that's OK I guess, as long as her husband is fine with it. But he's not. Now I'm not saying he's right or he's wrong, but she's not raising kids anymore, and she expects to send her son to one of the most expensive colleges in the state - but she doesn't want to help pay for it.

Would you look down on someone who does volunteer work for free in some poverty stricken foreign country? No - as a society we celebrate volunteers who give their time freely to help others succeed. Why is motherhood not celebrated in like manner? Why is it not enough to be a mother?

Wow, you are jumping to all sorts of conclusions. I actually did stay home with my kids until they went into school - and I'm 100 percent supportive of any parent - mother or father - who can stay home to raise their kids. I think it's ideal, actually.

It's not that it's not "enough" to be a mother. But a woman can be a mother - and also other things as well, just as a man can be a father and other things as well.

I do believe that the needs of the children should be put before the needs of the parents.

I think it is wrong to look down on women (or anyone) who have decided to dedicate their lives to volunteer work, community work, and family work. jmo.

Me too. But I also think it's wrong for a parent to insist that their child go to a very expensive school - but put that burden off on others when there are other alternatives available. Even stay at home wives can be very users and abusers.

If you had the choice of marrying someone who has a degree (but is unable to keep a family together) vs. someone who does not have a degree - but is loving/selfless - knows how to listen, how to keep a fam together - which would you choose? Is it more important to know how to fix a computer? or fix a family?

You left out another alternative - the mate who doesn't have a degree, doesn't have a strong work ethic, and also can't keep a family together.

not all stay-at-home moms are what they should be - but there are women who exist that do make life heaven on earth for everyone around them. Their funerals are well-attended, their worth within their community and family is far above anything any paying job could give.

And there are also women who exist who make life heaven on earth for everyone around them, including their coworkers. And their funerals are well attended too :sarcastic.

I'm not saying you can't have a job and be loving (I have a job and a degree) but there is something to be said for quality AND quantity. Kids (especially younger ones) need time. As much as everyone thinks it's possible - you cannot do it all. Spending time with one thing, means giving up time with another.

That's why, if a wife and mother chooses to also have a career, it requires a partnership with her mate that is fair and cooperative, which puts the needs of the children first and foremost.

My youngest daughter is in the military. Her husband is not - he is in school full time after getting out of the military. My daughter works "seconds" - second shift - so that she is home while my son in law is in school, and he is home when she is at work. Their three beautiful, healthy, and loving kids have never spent a full day in daycare, even when my daughter deployed. She and her husband (who I adore) have been married 8 happy years, and are devoted to each other completely.

She intends to retire from the military at age 37. She's already been consistently promoted ahead of her peers. She's a big asset to her unit in her position. And she's a great mom and wife too.

Believe it or not - a woman can have a career and be a great wife and mother as well. This doesn't make her BETTER than stay at home moms. It doesn't make her more or less valuable.

What's so difficult to understand about that?

 

[idea]

Me too. But I also think it's wrong for a parent to insist that their child go to a very expensive school - but put that burden off on others when there are other alternatives available. Even stay at home wives can be very users and abusers.

I agree.

... My daughter works "seconds" - second shift - so that she is home while my son in law is in school, and he is home when she is at work.

When do they get to see one another? (ie spend husband-wife quality time together)

not being critical - I think this example is similar to what many families are doing right now. Because many women are working, the economy has adjusted so that most are required to keep up a two-income household. Yes, everyone can make it through to the end, but it is hard, and there are consequences.

I still maintain that you cannot do it all.


50/50? each parent having a career and helping in the home? I don't know of many careers that allow you to only work 50% of the normal hours... a career is a career, it eats up time. Sure, you can hire someone to do the housework, eat out all the time, etc. etc. but if you juggle schedules to be there for the kids, then chances are you will not be there for your spouse and visa versa. There are only so many hours in a day - I think it is wrong to say everyone can do everything, when it is not true.

speaking of hours in a day... goodnight!

 

[Kathryn]

I agree.

When do they get to see one another?

For several hours during the afternoon, and then after my daughter gets off, and all weekend long. About the same amount of time as other couples who both work full or part time, or who go to school.

Apparently they get to see each other enough to have three children together in eight years!

I still maintain that you cannot do it all.

Some people can do more than others. And some couples cooperate better than others. Not all couples CAN do it - and not all couples WANT to do it. So they shouldn't.

Notice that my son in law does not have a job - and school only lasts for a few hours each day. How is this different from a man working full time and his wife going to school for a few hours each day. Would you have a problem with that scenario?

50/50? each parent having a career and helping in the home? I don't know of many careers that allow you to only work 50% of the normal hours... a career is a career, it eats up time. Sure, you can hire someone to do the housework, eat out all the time, etc. etc. but if you juggle schedules to be there for the kids, then chances are you will not be there for your spouse and visa versa. There are only so many hours in a day - I think it is wrong to say everyone can do everything, when it is not true.

I didn't say anything about 50/50 - surely you're not putting words into my mouth, are you?

Didn't you notice that I made it clear that my son in law doesn't work? He goes to college.

But that being said, you are wrong about career options. For several years during my childrens' school years, I worked part time in real estate. I worked about 20 hours a week - and made as much as many people who work full time.

I don't think anyone here has said that everyone can do everything. That's simply not true. You are, at the least, jumping to conclusions which fit your opinions and agenda. Some would go so far as to say you are twisting the words of others.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We seriously need it.

Where? I'll admit child support laws need to be redone, but male privilege is still alive and thriving. In many places it's still assumed women know nothing about cars, mechanics, or hard work. Men's health treatment options are not under constant bombardment. Some things that Gene mentioned, like men being arrested in civil disputes and women being given custody of children, stem from stereotypes against women that we are weak, defenseless, and automatically better at child rearing. Men may have lost more jobs overall, but they did so because they make more money. Men however do not have to fear loosing their job for taking time off for giving birth to a child and taking care of the newborn infant. Actually men are hired more frequently and are promoted more often because they aren't the ones that will need time off to give birth. Paying a cover fee at a bar? Boohoo. There are also women that get offended by the idea that a man is supposed to pay. And at least at a bar, as a man, you have a much better chance of enjoying your drink without interruption if you appear to be available. There is a reason many women prefer gay bars.

The bolded statement I think is a problem. To see women who have devoted their lives to motherhood as being somehow inferiour to women who work in other fields (and these are both fields of work btw - just different ones) is wrong, and is a product of feminism.

There are some feminist that are pretty nasty, who hate men, marriage, and even male-to-female transsexuals. But you can't lump them all together. The heart of feminism is women being socially equal to men, and for women to be able to choose if they want a domestic life or career life, or a combination of the two. I'm sure you would find that the majority of feminist do not look down on women who prefer to do the stay-at-home thing.
But what is a product of feminism is that women are gradually being paid more. My mom was a single mom of two during the 70's, and she worked at a factory for far less pay than her male coworkers. The reason behind this was that men are the bread winners, and because it was a man's job so she shouldn't be paid as much. But that was the story of many women. And her mom had even fewer options, and her mom's mom had even fewer and legally could not vote. Other products are political representation, the ability to own property, and the option to file for divorce. To say the views of a few radical loons is the product of feminism is to ignore the fact that you yourself enjoy many privileges and rights than feminist have been fighting for for many, many decades. Rights, wages, and benefits that would have been denied to you even just 30 to 40 years ago.

 

[Mathematician]

And a rather disgusting meme generally.

Women are given custody of children due to the sexist - against women - assumption that women are better suited to be caretakers and are the more, what was it, loving and selfless of the sexes.

Who runs things? Who, overwhelmingly, runs the society that has set things up this way? I think that custody cases should be handled in a gender neutral way - barring only perhaps a nursing mother - and so should court cases and the draft should it ever come back.

But you know why men lost more jobs, right? They make more money. And you know who got more jobs back? The men again. It's not any individual guy's fault. And it doesn't make every man a sexist or misogynist, but it is still how society functions.

And the whole paying cover charges to get into bars - Ladies Nights are generally done for the benefit of the men present in the bar. Abolish them if you like - I don't go - but be shocked when women don't show up to be harassed at the bar.

When an outlet of society that originated from patriarchy harms an individual male, it ceases to be an issue of just misogyny and becomes sexism against men.

Plenty of women use this empowerment in domestic disputes to hurt men. To brush this off as patriarchy when it's women taking advantage of certain gender roles is pushing it. Men are harassed by the legal arm of the state periodically when the "victim" is a female.

Ladies Night just benefits women and business owners in this day and age. It brings in more men, but the number of female denizens is about the same. Men consume more alcohol than women due to biological differences, so their increased presence is a win-win. It should be illegal. Your implication that men harass women at a bar is noteworthy; how is flirting harassment, and why is that women are given more leeway when they flirt with an uninterested man? I've been approached more than a dozen times by women in clubs and bars myself when I just wanted a drink.

I'm talking about the environment men and women confront nowadays, not the world people dealt with thirty years ago.

 

[Me Myself]

Where? I'll admit child support laws need to be redone, but male privilege is still alive and thriving. In many places it's still assumed women know nothing about cars, mechanics, or hard work. Men's health treatment options are not under constant bombardment. Some things that Gene mentioned, like men being arrested in civil disputes and women being given custody of children, stem from stereotypes against women that we are weak, defenseless, and automatically better at child rearing. Men may have lost more jobs overall, but they did so because they make more money. Men however do not have to fear loosing their job for taking time off for giving birth to a child and taking care of the newborn infant. Actually men are hired more frequently and are promoted more often because they aren't the ones that will need time off to give birth. Paying a cover fee at a bar? Boohoo. There are also women that get offended by the idea that a man is supposed to pay. And at least at a bar, as a man, you have a much better chance of enjoying your drink without interruption if you appear to be available. There is a reason many women prefer gay bars.

I am not descrediting at all that there needs be more equalism. I don´t mean men have the short straw most of the time, women tend to have it. I just say sometimes men do have it because of being men. not in all areas nor in all times, but in some and in this some, it can be quite serious stuff.

Again, if a man and a woman are both drunk and have sex. I understand (and may be corrected) that the woman can sue the man for rape because she was drunk, even if he was drunk too. It would deem this important need for correction in law.

 

[work in progress]

To my knowledge, all the clubs where I live have a very strict no-touching policy. But there are also a number of health and sanitary reasons to have and enforce such a policy, both for dancers and patrons.

I live in Ontario, and the no-touching rules collapsed a little over 20 years ago, when a judge through out a lewd conduct charge regarding "lap dancing." That was the beginning of strip clubs turning into quasi-brothels, and every so often one of them is busted for prostitution for running private rooms where anything goes....for a price of course.

Back in the 70's, when I used to go to the clubs alot, most of the girls were from Quebec, and aside from not being shy about taking off their clothes, they were just regular girls. A lot of them were going to college, some were single moms with young children, and I can't recall any having obvious drug problems. That all changed in the late 80's, when the rules were relaxed, and hundreds of Russian and Eastern Europeans leaving the collapsing Soviet Union were finding their way into the clubs, and willing to do anything for money.

 

[work in progress]

- In domestic disputes, who is more likely to be arrested at a crime scene without question as to who is the victim?

Who is more likely to be injured and/or hospitalized in a domestic dispute?

- Which gender is over represented in prison populations?

Which gender is larger, more physically stronger, and more aggressive?

- Which gender is dropping out of high school at an alarming rate?

So let's expel girls from school until the numbers even up!

- Between a father and mother, all else equal, who is more likely to lose custody of children?

That depends what age of children you are talking about. Are you going to award custody of a six month old baby to the father?

- Who is still expected to pay for entrance into clubs and bars as a requisite of their sex?

Who is expecting sex as compensation for paying her way?

- Which is taken more seriously in society - prostate or breast cancer?

Both.

- In this recent recession, which gender has lost the most jobs?

Which gender has the higher paying jobs in the first place? Men are more likely to lose jobs than women when factories close. Just because there's lots of donut shops and Walmarts employing a lot of women is hardly compensation!

Men have their own unique challenges that are simply not being addressed by major feminist organizations outside of some shallow words. That's why "men's rights" is becoming a new meme.

And whites have their own unique challenges too, so I guess we should expect the NAACP to shift their priorities also!

 

[cablescavenger]

Feminism seemed to be a big thing way back in the 80's - but how about nowadays - appears to have died down somewhat.

Has it really achieved a great deal?

When you look at how most young women dress, the overblowing mind assault of advertising with skimpily dressed glamour girls and provocative manners - could you really call the gains from feminism a success?

Seems to have increased sexism if anything.

Ok, perhaps a few issues such as equal pay etc..have been obtained but the objectification of women seems to have increased.

do we really need vagina worship 24/7?

It has suppressed wages, so from a govt. and private enterprise perspective it was a success.

 

[Kathryn]

Who is more likely to be injured and/or hospitalized in a domestic dispute?
Which gender is larger, more physically stronger, and more aggressive?
So let's expel girls from school until the numbers even up!
That depends what age of children you are talking about. Are you going to award custody of a six month old baby to the father?
Who is expecting sex as compensation for paying her way?
Both.
Which gender has the higher paying jobs in the first place? Men are more likely to lose jobs than women when factories close. Just because there's lots of donut shops and Walmarts employing a lot of women is hardly compensation!
And whites have their own unique challenges too, so I guess we should expect the NAACP to shift their priorities also!

Oh, my - frubals to you!

Of course, there are some nasty (and unforeseen by many people) byproducts of feminism, and even "equal rights." And there are also many lingering stereotypes when it comes to both sexes.

There are also biological differences between the sexes. "Equal" doesn't mean "the same." Men and women are not "the same," and in my opinion it's OK to acknowledge that.

Most feminists don't want to be treated LIKE a man, they just want equal OPPORTUNITY. Big difference.