Feminism is not egalitarianism

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Both sexes have issues. Men have a higher death rate and die earlier than women. So? We are still equal under law in the USA.

Again, equality on paper=/= equality in practice.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

What evidence free hand wave?

Here in the USA,
If Joe and Barbara get together for some fun in the sack, and make a baby, Barbara holds all the cards. She might decide the fetus is an inconvenient clump of cells and order him/her removed. Makes no difference what Joe thinks or wants. She can also decide that her fetal baby is a gift from God(or at least a meal ticket) and Joe owes her 20 years of child support. Makes no difference what Joe thinks or wants. He may not want to take the responsibility of parenthood, but he doesn't have the legal option of saying "Here's enough cash to get an abortion. If you decide not to, don't call me."
Tom

One of those awkward reality things. The outcomes are different for the different sexes, therefore the standards are different. I stand by my earlier comment. Feel free to discuss it over at https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/ though, I'm sure you'll find a more receptive audience.

 

[oldbadger]

Another issue that gets me about new wave feminism is their stance that men have NO issues.

Ah, well in that case, that particular crowd are not egalitarians.
Easy.

Any group that is disinterested in any other group of folks cannot be egalitarians, by any definition.

 

[oldbadger]

What evidence free hand wave?

Here in the USA,
If Joe and Barbara get together for some fun in the sack, and make a baby, Barbara holds all the cards. She might decide the fetus is an inconvenient clump of cells and order him/her removed. Makes no difference what Joe thinks or wants. She can also decide that her fetal baby is a gift from God(or at least a meal ticket) and Joe owes her 20 years of child support. Makes no difference what Joe thinks or wants. He may not want to take the responsibility of parenthood, but he doesn't have the legal option of saying "Here's enough cash to get an abortion. If you decide not to, don't call me."
Tom

Ain't condoms good?

 

[Akivah]

So, true, but logically irrelevant to the abortion issue since the causes of male mortality rates have nothing to do with abortions.

That was a response to Armored post#59 who brought in other issues that mostly affect women. I responded with issues that mostly affect men.
Both sexes have issues, females don't have a monopoly on problems.

 

[Akivah]

Again, equality on paper=/= equality in practice.

Evidence?

 

[columbus]

One of those awkward reality things.

The awkward reality I am describing is that feminism and egalitarianism are not at all the same.

Pragmatic egalitarianism recognizes the differences between people, and tries to do the best thing for everyone. At least, that's how I interpret it. I am fine with requiring men to take responsibility for the outcome of their Choice.(to have sex). It's the feminist, anti-egalitarian, notion that women can't be expected to take such responsibility but men can that I am using as an example.
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

The awkward reality I am describing is that feminism and egalitarianism are not at all the same.

Pragmatic egalitarianism recognizes the differences between people, and tries to do the best thing for everyone. At least, that's how I interpret it. I am fine with requiring men to take responsibility for the outcome of their Choice.(to have sex). It's the feminist, anti-egalitarian, notion that women can't be expected to take such responsibility but men can that I am using as an example.
Tom

Here's something you might find interesting...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualist_feminism

 

[columbus]

Ain't condoms good?

I learned this lesson the hard way.
When I was about 20 my girlfriend and I got pregnant. After that I was all about "No Glove, No Love".
It kept me alive during the AIDS epidemic.
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

I learned this lesson the hard way.
When I was about 20 my girlfriend and I got pregnant. After that I was all about "No Glove, No Love".
It kept me alive during the AIDS epidemic.
Tom

Off on a tangent.....
Do you remember when the AIDS thing got started in public discussion....before it even
had a name....just a pattern of gay deaths of kaposi sarcoma? I remember it vividly.

 

[columbus]

ll in that case, that particular crowd are not egalitarians.
Easy.

They are, however, feminists.
Tom

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What evidence free hand wave?

Here in the USA,
If Joe and Barbara get together for some fun in the sack, and make a baby, Barbara holds all the cards. She might decide the fetus is an inconvenient clump of cells and order him/her removed. Makes no difference what Joe thinks or wants. She can also decide that her fetal baby is a gift from God(or at least a meal ticket) and Joe owes her 20 years of child support. Makes no difference what Joe thinks or wants. He may not want to take the responsibility of parenthood, but he doesn't have the legal option of saying "Here's enough cash to get an abortion. If you decide not to, don't call me."
Tom

Joe shouldn't place his sperm inside a woman's vaginal canal if he doesn't want the potential responsibility of raising a child. If Joe wants a baby, he should make sure he's having sex with someone with whom he has an adult relationship with, and with whom he has discussed their common life goals. Until Joe is able to grow a child inside his body, his point of decision and responsibility logically, and morally, rests on his decision to place sperm inside a woman or not.

 

[columbus]

Joe shouldn't place his sperm inside a woman's vaginal canal if he doesn't want the potential responsibility of raising a child. If Joe wants a baby, he should make sure he's having sex with someone with whom he has an adult relationship with, and with whom he has discussed their common life goals. Until Joe is able to grow a child inside his body, his point of decision and responsibility logically, and morally, rests on his decision to place sperm inside a woman or not.

Because we cannot expect some dumb girl to exercise her bodily autonomy and personal freedom, prior to becoming a parent, but men are smarter?
Tom

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Because we cannot expect some dumb girl to exercise her bodily autonomy and personal freedom, prior to becoming a parent, but men are smarter?
Tom

She has the option to have the baby or not after getting pregnant. Men don't. I didn't invent biology. I don't think it's going to change anytime soon though, so if men want to, or don't want to, have a baby, I suggest they take my advice. Or not. Everyone has to deal with the ramifications of their own decisions.

 

[columbus]

She has the option to have the baby or not after getting pregnant. Men don't. I didn't invent biology.

I didn't invent biology either. Nobody did. It just is.

I don't think it's going to change anytime soon though, so if men want to, or don't want to, have a baby, I suggest they take my advice. Or not.

I agree, men should be more careful about having sex that might result in parenthood. I'm really kind of a prude. But the egalitarian part is to apply the same rights and responsibilities to women. Getting pregnant involves one set of responsibilities for men and a different set for women. But it does result from freely made choices, regardless of gender.
Unless you are a feminist.

Everyone has to deal with the ramifications of their own decisions.

No, everyone doesn't.
Lots of people think it unfair when they are expected to deal with the ramifications of their own choices. They simply refuse, and expect someone else to "do something".
I refer to that as "the culture of victimhood and entitlement". It's really common, especially in the USA today. Feminism is part of that, when it is not of the egalitarian variety. Which it usually isn't.
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't invent biology either. Nobody did. It just is.

I agree, men should be more careful about having sex that might result in parenthood. I'm really kind of a prude. But the egalitarian part is to apply the same rights and responsibilities to women. Getting pregnant involves one set of responsibilities for men and a different set for women. But it does result from freely made choices, regardless of gender.
Unless you are a feminist.


No, everyone doesn't.
Lots of people think it unfair when they are expected to deal with the ramifications of their own choices. They simply refuse, and expect someone else to "do something".
I refer to that as "the culture of victimhood and entitlement". It's really common, especially in the USA today. Feminism is part of that, when it is not of the egalitarian variety. Which it usually isn't.
Tom

There's wide agreement that abortion choice is the sole province of the one pregnant.
Given that, there's the issue of her choosing to deliver the baby, & imposing 18+ years
of costs to raise the child on the father. This is the current legal standard, but I see
no ethical reason that it couldn't be otherwise.

 

[oldbadger]

I learned this lesson the hard way.
When I was about 20 my girlfriend and I got pregnant. After that I was all about "No Glove, No Love".
It kept me alive during the AIDS epidemic.
Tom

There you go....... a trauma type situation saved your life.
Ain't that something?

 

[columbus]

There's wide agreement that abortion choice is the sole province of the one pregnant.

Back in the day (you and Sunrise might remember), abolitionism was considered a "property rights" issue. Before black people had widely been granted personhood by the majority of Americans.
Things change. Especially what is "widely agreed upon" by the public.
Tom

 

[oldbadger]

They are, however, feminists.
Tom

Of course.

But to be an egalitarian one has to fit the definition of 'equality for all'. For instance, a man who campaigns for better communal services for disabled folks yet won't let an Asian couple stay in his hotel just can't make the definition. Equally an Asian person who campaigns against religious harrassment can't refuse to employ female truck drivers can't make it as an egalitarian.

It's all or nuthin', quite a tough challenge to meet for many.

 

[Revoltingest]

Back in the day (you and Sunrise might remember), abolitionism was considered a "property rights" issue. Before black people had widely been granted personhood by the majority of Americans.
Things change. Especially what is "widely agreed upon" by the public.
Tom

Contrary to popular belief, I did not keep grounds at the Lincoln White House.