FEMINIST ONLY: Gender abolition and trans identity

[Shadow Wolf]

I’d call anything that aids reproduction necessary. Or at least functional. It’s like when we used to think the appendix was just a useless byproduct of evolution. But removing it without proper cause resulted in issues for the person.
The clitoris is sometimes removed in religious rites. But it causes unnecessary issues for the woman in question. So clearly it’s something that “should” be there.

Unnecessary in the regards it is unneeded. Pregnancy happens without. Its not like ovaries, in which there is no reproduction without. The clitoris is more of a pleasant accessory than something strictly needed for reproduction.

 

[Bird123]

In a perfect world perhaps. But we are social creatures and if the culture around us enforces a stricter dichotomy than what we fit into, insecurity may abound. Ideally a person can be whoever they damn well please. But judgmental folks might give them a hard time. Just there other day I had to (politely) remind a customer not to be rude to a couple, both of whom were very masculine presenting females with a baby. If I wasn’t on the clock I would have had a few more choice words for Mr judgey mcjudgepants.
I’m not trans myself, but I often get mistaken as lesbian by more closed minded individuals simply because I’m not particularly into feminine “things.” I kind of want there to be less walls and restrictions. To hell with traditions let’s make our own. But I don’t want it if it comes at the expense of others happiness.

Remember, each of us are creating this world. What is it do we really want to create?

I witnessed a good friend of mine teach everyone around a good lesson. This person was a black man who serviced new appliances if there was a problem with them after people got them home.

This customer was mad. His dryer did not work and it was new. When the black service man arrived, that customer started cussing and raising Hell. The N word was used several times. I had been walking around the neighborhood and heard the yelling.

As I walked up to the house to introduce myself and see what was going on, I could see it in the black man's face too. Both of these people were furious.

To my surprised, the black man closed his eyes and started to think. When the black man opened his eyes, he gave the angry customer nothing but kind words. His love, kindness and understanding manner changed the dynamics. The customer calmed down and before I knew it the black service man had that customer eating out of his hand. It was remarkable to witness such a change.

While all this was happening, I noticed the customer had build a deck covering the dryer exhaust hole for the vent. If you can't move and air, you won't dry any clothes. There was never anything wrong with that dryer to begin with. So I pointed it out. Problems solved.

So what did the black man teach us all? If you get hate, always return love and kindness. It doesn't matter what others choose to do. WE can choose what we will do. If the black man had returned nothing but anger and hate, what would the outcome have been?

A few weeks later, I was walking the neighborhood again and saw that customer. I walked over and asked. How's that dryer doing? The guy said great then told me how bad he felt about using the N word and being so hateful.

Did the message get through? Lack of information along with people getting and spreading crazy ideas can lead to things like racism and hate for those different. The black man taught that customer reality instead of those crazy notions he came to believe in the past.

How does that customer see black people now? With love and kindness. So when we see others hating, show them who you really are. Love and education is the only way to get rid of hate. It's very hard to hate someone loving you unconditionally.

Yes, there are great people teaching wonderful lessons to others in this multilevel classroom. If we follow that black service man's example, we can all teach others around us something. We don't have to just react to things. We can Think, then Act!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Oh yes, since we are all Spiritual Beings in our true natures, there will always be something we have in common with whoever we meet. Share that which is Special about you with them. Show them who you really are!!

 

[SomeRandom]

Unnecessary in the regards it is unneeded. Pregnancy happens without. Its not like ovaries, in which there is no reproduction without. The clitoris is more of a pleasant accessory than something strictly needed for reproduction.

But if it aids in the success rate for reproduction, is it really just an add on for pleasure?
Or is it just another functional organ that has evolved to serve a purpose?
That it isn’t needed does not diminish its role either. Even if it was just for pleasure that too would be a useful function for reproduction. Since it encourages sexual behaviour rather than chastity that has to be enforced through religious ritual, since that contradicts our natural instincts.
I just don’t see biology as being that black and white. Just like I see gender expressions as highly variable. Hell the West goes so far as to arbitrarily assign genders to colours even. The hell is up with that?

 

[SomeRandom]

Remember, each of us are creating this world. What is it do we really want to create?

I witnessed a good friend of mine teach everyone around a good lesson. This person was a black man who serviced new appliances if there was a problem with them after people got them home.

This customer was mad. His dryer did not work and it was new. When the black service man arrived, that customer started cussing and raising Hell. The N word was used several times. I had been walking around the neighborhood and heard the yelling.

As I walked up to the house to introduce myself and see what was going on, I could see it in the black man's face too. Both of these people were furious.

To my surprised, the black man closed his eyes and started to think. When the black man opened his eyes, he gave the angry customer nothing but kind words. His love, kindness and understanding manner changed the dynamics. The customer calmed down and before I knew it the black service man had that customer eating out of his hand. It was remarkable to witness such a change.

While all this was happening, I noticed the customer had build a deck covering the dryer exhaust hole for the vent. If you can't move and air, you won't dry any clothes. There was never anything wrong with that dryer to begin with. So I pointed it out. Problems solved.

So what did the black man teach us all? If you get hate, always return love and kindness. It doesn't matter what others choose to do. WE can choose what we will do. If the black man had returned nothing but anger and hate, what would the outcome have been?

A few weeks later, I was walking the neighborhood again and saw that customer. I walked over and asked. How's that dryer doing? The guy said great then told me how bad he felt about using the N word and being so hateful.

Did the message get through? Lack of information along with people getting and spreading crazy ideas can lead to things like racism and hate for those different. The black man taught that customer reality instead of those crazy notions he came to believe in the past.

How does that customer see black people now? With love and kindness. So when we see others hating, show them who you really are. Love and education is the only way to get rid of hate. It's very hard to hate someone loving you unconditionally.

Yes, there are great people teaching wonderful lessons to others in this multilevel classroom. If we follow that black service man's example, we can all teach others around us something. We don't have to just react to things. We can Think, then Act!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Oh yes, since we are all Spiritual Beings in our true natures, there will always be something we have in common with whoever we meet. Share that which is Special about you with them. Show them who you really are!!

Which is great in philosophical discourse. But humans aren’t going to be like that. It’s simply not reality. We can all try to be forgiving and charitable but for most people such goals are too lofty to fulfil. That’s just life. No sense in trying to attain nirvana on earth whilst ignoring human behaviour patterns.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Unnecessary in the regards it is unneeded. Pregnancy happens without. Its not like ovaries, in which there is no reproduction without. The clitoris is more of a pleasant accessory than something strictly needed for reproduction.

If females didn't have clitorises then males wouldn't have a penis because they develop from the same tissue. So that's one way of arguing that the clitoris is essential to reproduction. A penis is really an overgrown clit, not vice versa.

 

[Tiberius]

Fair enough. I kind of sympathise with the idea myself. To not be bound by cultural restrictions on gender (from both my Heritages) would be quite freeing.

I completely agree that old fashioned ideas about gender (men can do this and not that, women can do that and not this) are ridiculous and should be abolished. But I identify as a man, and the idea of me having to say otherwise makes no sense to me. People should be free to identify as they want. People should not have their choices defined for them. I think it's harmful to tell people they must identify as a man or a woman and those are the only two options. But I think it's equally harmful to say nobody can identify as a man or a woman.

 

[SomeRandom]

I completely agree that old fashioned ideas about gender (men can do this and not that, women can do that and not this) are ridiculous and should be abolished. But I identify as a man, and the idea of me having to say otherwise makes no sense to me. People should be free to identify as they want. People should not have their choices defined for them. I think it's harmful to tell people they must identify as a man or a woman and those are the only two options. But I think it's equally harmful to say nobody can identify as a man or a woman.

Well, can we just have optional identities? If someone wishes to identify as a male, then fine. If someone wants to identify as a female, that’s fine. If someone doesn’t want to be pinned on either camp, that’s okay as well.

 

[Emsy]

I’ve heard about gender abolition for a while now. My tomboy self kind of likes the idea, really.
But if that were to be put into effect, would that negatively affect people who are trans? By that I mean, isn’t a large part of feeling validated in one’s identity a bit more reliant on gender expressions?
I don’t want to be presumptuous, so I’m asking more so for clarification. Because I’m genuinely curious.

I think people should start by observing what sex they (and others) are biologically and move in the most appropriate direction from there with regards to any and all conduct related to one's biological sex.

End of story.

Gender abolition sounds like complete nonsense.

Gender theory has gotten completely out of control considering that this is a topic people are even finding the time and energy to discuss.

 

[Tiberius]

Well, can we just have optional identities? If someone wishes to identify as a male, then fine. If someone wants to identify as a female, that’s fine. If someone doesn’t want to be pinned on either camp, that’s okay as well.

That sounds like a good idea to me. Just let people identify the way they want, and refer to them as such.

 

[Emsy]

Well, can we just have optional identities? If someone wishes to identify as a male, then fine. If someone wants to identify as a female, that’s fine. If someone doesn’t want to be pinned on either camp, that’s okay as well.

Does that also extend to anything one's imagination desires?

Like do you believe that people should also be able to identify as dragons, vampires, seals or single cell lifeforms and have those identities validated by the public as well?

I mean, ultimately this does boil down to biological science and an apparent shift away from it.

 

[crossfire]

Does that also extend to anything one's imagination desires?

Like do you believe that people should also be able to identify as dragons, vampires, seals or single cell lifeforms and have those identities validated by the public as well?

I mean, ultimately this does boil down to biological science and an apparent shift away from it.

No one has suggested that gender identity be stretched beyond the realm of humanity, nor has the OP suggested it.

 

[Curious George]

I think people should start by observing what sex they (and others) are biologically and move in the most appropriate direction from there with regards to any and all conduct related to one's biological sex.

End of story.

Gender abolition sounds like complete nonsense.

Gender theory has gotten completely out of control considering that this is a topic people are even finding the time and energy to discuss.

I think you and i are so far apart on this issue it would indeed be a waste of time and energy to actually discuss the subject with you.

While i understand that many people feel like you do, the common ground on which to connect is likely not here. Perhaps in some other thread, in some other section of the forum we can discuss why gender studies, gender theory, and feminism are all still relevant and necessary.

But i would like to point out that the OP posed a question and asked to engage in a subject. If you have nothing other than "we shouldn't talk about this" to add, perhaps you shouldn't add anything at all.

 

[crossfire]

I think people should start by observing what sex they (and others) are biologically and move in the most appropriate direction from there with regards to any and all conduct related to one's biological sex.

End of story.

Gender abolition sounds like complete nonsense.

Gender theory has gotten completely out of control considering that this is a topic people are even finding the time and energy to discuss.

You are aware that this is the Feminist Only DIR?

 

[SomeRandom]

Does that also extend to anything one's imagination desires?

Like do you believe that people should also be able to identify as dragons, vampires, seals or single cell lifeforms and have those identities validated by the public as well?

I mean, ultimately this does boil down to biological science and an apparent shift away from it.

Umm biological science itself distinguishes between sex and gender. That’s just fact and has been such for decades at this point. I remember learning the distinction back in high school like a decade ago, at least.
Gender refers to the expressions commonly attributed to masculinity and femininity and is largely based on cultural factors. It’s literally studied by the various social sciences.

Sex refers to the physical sex characteristics that are distributed through bimodal means.
You might even argue that such a definition is at best only applicable generally speaking, since it technically leaves out known biological phenomenons like intersex people, hermaphrodites and pseudomites.

Imagination is not really what trans identity or being outside of the bimodal structures of sex is either.
They are known phenomenons studied by various scientific disciplines, most notably mental health sectors and sexology. Hell they can literally scan for “trans” nowadays. Sorry for the sloppy phrasing, but y’all know what I mean.

I almost expected you to make an attack helicopter meme.
Engage my friend. This sounded scary to me at first too. But once you find time to dig into what is being argued, it’s not that bad after all.

 

[Emsy]

No one has suggested that gender identity be stretched beyond the realm of humanity, nor has the OP suggested it.

That doesn't matter.

I just did.

It's called adding to conversation.

 

[Emsy]

If you have nothing other than "we shouldn't talk about this" to add, perhaps you shouldn't add anything at all.

I never said anything even remotely close to that.

In fact, I expanded the discussion to previously uncharted waters.

 

[Curious George]

I never said anything even remotely close to that.

In fact, I expanded the discussion to previously uncharted waters.

The implication of:

Gender theory has gotten completely out of control considering that this is a topic people are even finding the time and energy to discuss.

Is very much that we ought not discuss this topic as doing so indicates taking gender theory "out of control."

 

[SomeRandom]

That doesn't matter.

I just did.

It's called adding to conversation.

But why go that direction, if not to denigrate non binary and trans identities?
It seems unnecessary as it is implying that abolition is the stuff of science fiction and will lead to anarchy. Which is, if I’m not mistaken, a slippery slope fallacy?

 

[Tiberius]

I think people should start by observing what sex they (and others) are biologically and move in the most appropriate direction from there with regards to any and all conduct related to one's biological sex.

End of story.

Gender abolition sounds like complete nonsense.

Gender theory has gotten completely out of control considering that this is a topic people are even finding the time and energy to discuss.

The equipment that a person has in their pants isn't always the best place to start when it comes to deciding what gender a person is.

 

[Tiberius]

Does that also extend to anything one's imagination desires?

Like do you believe that people should also be able to identify as dragons, vampires, seals or single cell lifeforms and have those identities validated by the public as well?

I mean, ultimately this does boil down to biological science and an apparent shift away from it.

I've found that people only tend to claim to identify as such things when they're being trolls/jerks.

I've also found that just accepting them as whatever they claim to be shuts down their stupidity pretty quickly.