FEMINIST ONLY: "Modern" Feminism. What is it?

[MysticSang'ha]

I've heard this before from critics of feminism, which you can see even here at RF. When they say "modern feminism is bull****" (funny how that's supposed to be okay, but even saying that MRA's are "misguided" will bring up a world of defense for how hostile saying "misguided" is...anyway)...

So, "modern" feminism. What makes it "modern"? Has anyone heard this qualifier outside the circle of critics?

There are various qualifiers for Third Wave, for Marxist Feminism, for Eco-Feminism, for Black Feminism, for Womanism. But "modern" Feminism? I haven't heard that except for the people who openly state their hostility for feminism.

Feminism has been a driving force behind standing for equality of the sexes. It has always seen the backlash against it for looking for "special" rights, rather than equal rights...even from First Wave when fighting for the vote. The Equal Rights Amendment was penned by Alice Paul shortly after the right to vote was granted by the government....not penned by Gloria Steinem, as I've seen falsely attributed to her elsewhere. Either that or seeing the attribute that the E.R.A. is a "modern" fight by angry man-hating feminists. That is a false and ignorant claim.

Many issues have been addressed since then up to and including the current day. How does "modern" feminism differ from what was the "former" feminism?

What do you think? Where does the term come from?

 

[Magic Man]

As far as I can tell, it's used, as you say, by critics, as a way to not sound sexist. They can say "Oh, classic feminism is cool, but modern feminism is ridiculous", to try to appear balanced and rational. In reality it just means feminism that doesn't involve the most obvious of obvious rights like the right to vote or the right to work. It's easy to see and sympathize with the desire for such obvious things, but these days sexism is generally much more subtle. As with racism, the obvious forms are called out and denounced, and because of that, a lot of people seem to think racism doesn't exist or isn't a big deal. Same with sexism. So, to a lot of people when someone speaks out against sexism and speaks up for feminism, it seems radical because they feel like it's nitpicking or making a big deal out of nothing. Since that covers most of what feminism speaks out against these days*, they call it "modern feminism", and then condemn it.

At least that's my interpretation of the situation.

* Issues that people perceive as making a big deal out of nothing, not that that's what feminists are actually doing.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

*glomps Magic Man*

Damn it's so good to see you again!

And, I can see what you're saying. Good points.

 

[Magic Man]

*glomps Magic Man*

Damn it's so good to see you again!

*glomps right back*

Thanks, it's good to see you too!

 

[Kirran]

As far as I can tell, it's used, as you say, by critics, as a way to not sound sexist. They can say "Oh, classic feminism is cool, but modern feminism is ridiculous", to try to appear balanced and rational. In reality it just means feminism that doesn't involve the most obvious of obvious rights like the right to vote or the right to work. It's easy to see and sympathize with the desire for such obvious things, but these days sexism is generally much more subtle. As with racism, the obvious forms are called out and denounced, and because of that, a lot of people seem to think racism doesn't exist or isn't a big deal. Same with sexism. So, to a lot of people when someone speaks out against sexism and speaks up for feminism, it seems radical because they feel like it's nitpicking or making a big deal out of nothing. Since that covers most of what feminism speaks out against these days*, they call it "modern feminism", and then condemn it.

At least that's my interpretation of the situation.

* Issues that people perceive as making a big deal out of nothing, not that that's what feminists are actually doing.

Man, I used up much of my repertoire of compliments over in the other thread, but this is just amazing stuff, and basically says everything I would have wanted to say on the subject. But I am happy enough being left to compliment you saying it.

One thing to add, I think that the refusal to acknowledge the perfectly valid goals of modern-day feminism (no more misogyny, equal pay, rape culture and all that other small unimportant stuff) is due to a selective blindness towards things which are actually pretty visible. This selective blindness is itself born from laziness - it's easier to not think about this, especially when it undermines your own achievements by demonstrating the advantage you hold over the less-privileged.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I have no idea what "modern feminism" means in terms of a specific philosophy that people are referring to when they say "modern feminism." And I agree with magic man. I would also say that it seems more of a silencing tactic that is used to avoid addressing specific points by placing all branches of feminism under "modern feminism" which basically seems to suggest that we have some legal rights so we should stop complaining.

 

[Kirran]

'You can vote, you can drive, shut up about all that respect nonsense.'

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Man, I used up much of my repertoire of compliments over in the other thread, but this is just amazing stuff, and basically says everything I would have wanted to say on the subject. But I am happy enough being left to compliment you saying it.

I thought it was well-written, too. Kudos to MM.

One thing to add, I think that the refusal to acknowledge the perfectly valid goals of modern-day feminism (no more misogyny, equal pay, rape culture and all that other small unimportant stuff) is due to a selective blindness towards things which are actually pretty visible. This selective blindness is itself born from laziness - it's easier to not think about this, especially when it undermines your own achievements by demonstrating the advantage you hold over the less-privileged.

I think this is a good point, as well as to point out the blind spots that occur when racism continues to pervade various institutions as well. Wage gaps, when presented, as long as the focus is on "lifestyle choices" and less about "actual discrimination", then the default view of personal responsibility and individualism remains as a foundation to continue a dialogue. Once systemic oppression is considered, the backlash and fallout becomes blinding, I think. Apparently, if the wage gap is just a small percentage, we should be fine and dandy because having a small percentage of any wage gap due to gender discrimination is pretty much saying we're equal, right?

My favorite analogy is the poop sandwich. Let's take two sandwiches. Favorites, of course (mine is the club sandwich at the moment).

On one sandwich, let's pile a fresh steaming pile of poop onto the meat and veggies, and place the top slice of bread on top.

On another sandwich, let's just put a tiny smear of fresh poop on the inside of the bread. Not much. Just a tiny smear. Even mix it in with mayo or mustard. It's only a little tiny bit.

Now compare these two poop sandwiches with the range of acknowledgements that wage discrimination exists. On one extreme end, we have people who suggest that sex discrimination is a major factor that results in the income gap. On another extreme end, we have people who suggest that sex discrimination is a very minor factor that results in the income gap, and that if anything, it's practically non-existent.

Critics of the wage gap discrimination arguments tend to suggest that the second sandwich, with only it's tiny smear of fresh poop on the bread, ought to be tolerable and edible by us who are on the shorter end of the stick.

And this is what tends to be brought up time and again by those who are the most hostile to feminism. There's either the assumption that inequality is inherent, and that the marginalized really ought to realize that as a fact. OR, there's the assumption that there is no inequality at all, and if our life includes multiple series of assaults or discrimination, it's all our fault. The system, itself, is perfect, we feminists are scolded by our critics. Or at least it is until child custody discussions are brought up.

Not to mention, that if hostile folks never hear about feminists who fight against trafficking or genital mutilation, then because they don't hear it, it never happens.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I have no idea what "modern feminism" means in terms of a specific philosophy that people are referring to when they say "modern feminism." And I agree with magic man. I would also say that it seems more of a silencing tactic that is used to avoid addressing specific points by placing all branches of feminism under "modern feminism" which basically seems to suggest that we have some legal rights so we should stop complaining.

I agree.

Or, that because people are ticked off at us for our complaints, we should stop complaining. Because their anger is more justified than ours.

 

[Marisa]

Personally, I've only heard it used by those who don't really understand what "feminism" means to begin with, but mostly associated with the gamer thing. I don't game, so I don't really understand the issues there, but I also don't really follow the feminism movement more than living my life expecting that I won't be treated differently because of my gender. But when I do engage, it's almost always with someone who wants to paint feminism by the worst things they've heard or seen said by any feminist.

 

[Kirran]

I think this is a good point, as well as to point out the blind spots that occur when racism continues to pervade various institutions as well. Wage gaps, when presented, as long as the focus is on "lifestyle choices" and less about "actual discrimination", then the default view of personal responsibility and individualism remains as a foundation to continue a dialogue. Once systemic oppression is considered, the backlash and fallout becomes blinding, I think. Apparently, if the wage gap is just a small percentage, we should be fine and dandy because having a small percentage of any wage gap due to gender discrimination is pretty much saying we're equal, right?

My favorite analogy is the poop sandwich. Let's take two sandwiches. Favorites, of course (mine is the club sandwich at the moment).

On one sandwich, let's pile a fresh steaming pile of poop onto the meat and veggies, and place the top slice of bread on top.

On another sandwich, let's just put a tiny smear of fresh poop on the inside of the bread. Not much. Just a tiny smear. Even mix it in with mayo or mustard. It's only a little tiny bit.

Now compare these two poop sandwiches with the range of acknowledgements that wage discrimination exists. On one extreme end, we have people who suggest that sex discrimination is a major factor that results in the income gap. On another extreme end, we have people who suggest that sex discrimination is a very minor factor that results in the income gap, and that if anything, it's practically non-existent.

Critics of the wage gap discrimination arguments tend to suggest that the second sandwich, with only it's tiny smear of fresh poop on the bread, ought to be tolerable and edible by us who are on the shorter end of the stick.

A great point, with some delectable imagery thrown in for fun and profit.

This bizarre idea that if discrimination becomes only a minor factor, then it's OK, is just that. Sadly similar to logic like 'My boyfriend used to beat me a lot, but now he just tells me to shut up when I'm being too mouthy, so I think that's OK.'

And this is what tends to be brought up time and again by those who are the most hostile to feminism. There's either the assumption that inequality is inherent, and that the marginalized really ought to realize that as a fact. OR, there's the assumption that there is no inequality at all, and if our life includes multiple series of assaults or discrimination, it's all our fault. The system, itself, is perfect, we feminists are scolded by our critics. Or at least it is until child custody discussions are brought up.

Not to mention, that if hostile folks never hear about feminists who fight against trafficking or genital mutilation, then because they don't hear it, it never happens.

Just the fact that some people use the term 'rape' to describe having done well at something 'Man I raped that exam' should be enough for condemnation. Just that alone, nothing else is needed.

I agree.

Or, that because people are ticked off at us for our complaints, we should stop complaining. Because their anger is more justified than ours.

Surely, you've realised that men are allowed to be angry, but when women do it it's just annoying?

 

[Magic Man]

Some great analogies and comments here, although I could have done without Heather's sandwich one while I'm eating my lunch.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Some great analogies and comments here, although I could have done without Heather's sandwich one while I'm eating my lunch.

Lol

I wrote that while eating a leftover chicken salad sammich. On croissant. No poop.

 

[Kirran]

Lol

I wrote that while eating a leftover chicken salad sammich. On croissant. No poop.

I really am glad you qualified that.

Bloody feminists, always going on about they hate men and eat sandwiches of poop. Shouldn't put up with it.

 

[Riverwolf]

I admit that I'm not very well versed in the various terms for historical feminism, but if I were to try defining "modern" feminism, as somehow being separate from historical forms of it, the only thing that really comes to mind is... well, "modern" feminism involves a lot more individuals speaking out in day-to-day speech in blogs and vlogs.

...and perhaps a bit more overlap with LGBT+ and racial issues than there may have been in the past?

I dunno. I feel it's kind of a silly descriptor, anyway, since "modern" is a temporary term, anyway. I also do believe that feminism, while a single movement with some fuzzy boundaries, does have many different schools of thought that have more descriptive terms, making the term "modern" mere white noise. (I'm a sex-positive feminist, for example; as opposed to someone who would be a sex-negative feminist. Both of us are feminists, but we would still disagree on some key points.)

Because their anger is more justified than ours.

If I had a dollar for every time I've seen that sentiment expressed with seriousness... I'd probably still not be able to buy much due to being easily scared away by haters...

 

[Kirran]

If I had a dollar for every time I've seen that sentiment expressed with seriousness... I'd probably still not be able to buy much due to being easily scared away by haters...

I'd refund you for each time you got scared away, but we don't have dollars over here

 

[Riverwolf]

I'd refund you for each time you got scared away, but we don't have dollars over here

The sentiment is appreciated anyway. ^_^

Once my youtube channel takes off, hopefully it'll be easier just from dealing with the infamous comments. I'm just a Let's Player right now, but while I don't intend to actively talk about hot-button issues, I don't intend to "hide" them, either.

 

[Kirran]

The sentiment is appreciated anyway. ^_^

Once my youtube channel takes off, hopefully it'll be easier just from dealing with the infamous comments. I'm just a Let's Player right now, but while I don't intend to actively talk about hot-button issues, I don't intend to "hide" them, either.

Say some controversial things, and maybe you'll get on the Young Turks. Then you've got publicity.

 

[Riverwolf]

Say some controversial things, and maybe you'll get on the Young Turks. Then you've got publicity.

But I already said I didn't like Halo... LOL

More seriously, once I get a webcam, or some other way to record my face, the not-clown facepaint will probably do it. Plus, at some point I'll be doing games that are more noteworthy from a feminist perspective (positive and negative), and I'll definitely be talking about that aspect.

Plus, I eventually want to do a video on Persona 4 (not a let's play, but a scripted analysis). While I consider the game a masterpiece, it does have one super-glaring flaw that I think is quite noteworthy from a feminist perspective, and I'll definitely be talking about it.

...I think that's another way "modern" feminism can differ from ..."earlier" feminism. I think there's lately been a strong emphasis on artistic criticism as of late that I'm not sure used to be so prevalent, or at least as noticed. After all, every single bloody time I see feminism criticized, Anita Sarkeesian is almost guaranteed to be brought up (though to be fair, I've seen her criticized by feminists as well).

 

[MysticSang'ha]

But I already said I didn't like Halo... LOL

More seriously, once I get a webcam, or some other way to record my face, the not-clown facepaint will probably do it. Plus, at some point I'll be doing games that are more noteworthy from a feminist perspective (positive and negative), and I'll definitely be talking about that aspect.

Plus, I eventually want to do a video on Persona 4 (not a let's play, but a scripted analysis). While I consider the game a masterpiece, it does have one super-glaring flaw that I think is quite noteworthy from a feminist perspective, and I'll definitely be talking about it.

...I think that's another way "modern" feminism can differ from ..."earlier" feminism. I think there's lately been a strong emphasis on artistic criticism as of late that I'm not sure used to be so prevalent, or at least as noticed. After all, every single bloody time I see feminism criticized, Anita Sarkeesian is almost guaranteed to be brought up (though to be fair, I've seen her criticized by feminists as well).

She is this generation's Easy Scapegoat. Gloria Steinem was Second Wave's top Most Hated Feminist, and now Anita Sarkeesian is brought up with a lot of ire.

Usually, when somebody makes people that angry, where any backlash she receives is seen as even just a little bit deserving, I get the idea that her rhetoric has hit a sweet spot somewhere. Nobody thinks she's the equivalent of the Westboro Baptist Church. That's for sure. But she just really really annoys people in the gaming world.

I'll repeat that....she's really really annoying.

She isn't threatening anybody. She isn't campaigning for office on a platform that wishes to enforce more taxes on gamers or anything penalizing like that. She's a vlogger who is speaking her unpopular opinions about gaming. It's interesting that once a threat was made on a campus she was supposed to speak at, suddenly her critics look the other way from the behavior of their comrades. Because - again - what she says about various tropes that exist in gaming is MORE egregious and horrible than anybody beating her face up on an app, threatening to kill her, or threatening to kill people who attend her talks.

However, for people who actually read feminist literature, or at least the cliff notes, typically Andrea Dworkin or the S.C.U.M. Manifesto is brought up as examples of how bad feminism really is. It's pretty impressive how little many of the harshest critics actually pay attention to what the majority of feminists actually talk about or write about.