a bunch of cells are not a whole human. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
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Fetal Consciousness
- Thread starter Fool
- Start date
Cock roaches have life too and bacteria.
Having life does not mean one has right to life.
Bacteria wants to grow too. It has right to life correct?
Pealse bring this supreme entity to make a live deposition on what it wants. Then we can think about it.
BrightShadow
Active Member
No! You didn't just compare a blastocyst to an ordinary one cell bacteria! You are lucky when you were in your blastocyst stage trying to attach to your host (your mother) - your mother didn't treat you like an ordinary bacteria!
By the way, there are good (beneficial) bacteria as well. They are called Probiotics. We need them to survive! It fights the bad bacteria and restore the balance within the body. Good ones keep us healthy by supporting our immune function. Certain type of good bacteria also helps break down food and thus help our body digest. It does many other things. You won't survive without them.
Anyhow, the reason I mentioned blastocyst and after "plantation" stage - is because at this stage the embryo clearly shows signs of survival instinct. It shows signs of resistance from any possible rejection from the host. It not only creates an environment for its own survival - it even triggers hormonal changes in the mother to prepare the endometrium to receive and envelop the blastocyst. Many things works simultaneously to help the blastocyst to embed into the uterine wall.
Of course, one can argue life begins at fertilization with the Embryo's conception. However, I believe - it becomes a mother's job to facilitate when the blastocyst attaches itself to the uterine wall. To do anything to detach it from there should be considered a violation. Most of us (human) won't even break a bird's nest with eggs in it. Even if a bird build a nest in a wrong place - most of us would wait until the eggs are hatched and the babies are safely moved. So, why no remorse in the case of a human? Why support this?
Blastocyst (multi cell) is a later stage than Zygote (single cell). Even a zygote contains all of the genetic information (DNA) needed to become a baby. The fusion of the sperm (with 23 chromosomes) and the oocyte (with 23 chromosomes) at fertilization results in a live human being, a single-cell human zygote, with 46 chromosomes and that has all the characteristics of an individual member of the human species. At Zygote stage it is already determined if its going to be a boy or a girl!
I believe the life of the fetus should be protected from the moment of conception. The unborn should be considered as born from the moment it shows sign of self preservation. By creating an environment to attach to the uterine wall and by attaching and growing - an embryo shows more signs of survival instinct than even grown humans. Giving it the privilege is the right thing to do. IMO
BrightShadow
Active Member
you are projecting emotions and beliefs onto a group of cells that someone calls an egg.
while ignoring the fact of a fully developed human being.
the female carrying the egg is not an egg. you're not an egg. whats even more telling is that female is carrying hundreds of more potential eggs.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
What a ridiculous comparison.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
We show more concern for an eagle egg than human beings in the womb. Paul was right. People are worshipping the creation instead of God.No! You didn't just compare a blastocyst to an ordinary one cell bacteria! You are lucky when you were in your blastocyst stage trying to attach to your host (your mother) - your mother didn't treat you like an ordinary bacteria!
By the way, there are good (beneficial) bacteria as well. They are called Probiotics. We need them to survive! It fights the bad bacteria and restore the balance within the body. Good ones keep us healthy by supporting our immune function. Certain type of good bacteria also helps break down food and thus help our body digest. It does many other things. You won't survive without them.
Anyhow, the reason I mentioned blastocyst and after "plantation" stage - is because at this stage the embryo clearly shows signs of survival instinct. It shows signs of resistance from any possible rejection from the host. It not only creates an environment for its own survival - it even triggers hormonal changes in the mother to prepare the endometrium to receive and envelop the blastocyst. Many things works simultaneously to help the blastocyst to embed into the uterine wall.
Of course, one can argue life begins at fertilization with the Embryo's conception. However, I believe - it becomes a mother's job to facilitate when the blastocyst attaches itself to the uterine wall. To do anything to detach it from there should be considered a violation. Most of us (human) won't even break a bird's nest with eggs in it. Even if a bird build a nest in a wrong place - most of us would wait until the eggs are hatched and the babies are safely moved. So, why no remorse in the case of a human? Why support this?
Blastocyst (multi cell) is a later stage than Zygote (single cell). Even a zygote contains all of the genetic information (DNA) needed to become a baby. The fusion of the sperm (with 23 chromosomes) and the oocyte (with 23 chromosomes) at fertilization results in a live human being, a single-cell human zygote, with 46 chromosomes and that has all the characteristics of an individual member of the human species. At Zygote stage it is already determined if its going to be a boy or a girl!
I believe the life of the fetus should be protected from the moment of conception. The unborn should be considered as born from the moment it shows sign of self preservation. By creating an environment to attach to the uterine wall and by attaching and growing - an embryo shows more signs of survival instinct than even grown humans. Giving it the privilege is the right thing to do. IMO
An eagles egg is not an eagle, is it? So why is it against the law to break one? You can get a hefty fine or years in prison for simply destroying an eagle embryo. No one asks if it's alive or feels pain, they just know that that egg contains an eagle in the process of developing.... too bad we apparently can't figure out that a human embryo deserves life more than a bird.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Everyone acts on belief. That makes no sense.
but everyone doesn't hold onto belief once the belief is not realized. a belief isn't realizable in every instance, or place and time. the prisons and psych wards are full of people with beliefs. some people just haven't been put in physical restraint.
one doesn't have to go somewhere to be in hell imprisoned. they can be in a disturbed hell of their own state of mind, hell.
hell is a spiritual/mental state. you don't have a physical body but the mind doesn't get out of it that easily
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
What does that even mean? A belief isn't realized?
I believe what I believe. No one can tell me my beliefs aren't real.
self is trying to make a decision about something they are not informed on, or know. they are making a guess. what's even sadder is they are making a guess about someone else. that is what belief is.
there are two wrongs at least here. 1 love is towards a possibility and not the actual. 2. the self is trespassing against their neighbor.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
I am informed. It's not a guess.
But everyone still decides what to believe.
I have no idea what the second paragraph means.
no you're not. you posted in another post that everything is a belief. you're all over the place. you're trying to make a decision about someone else's circumstances and then deciding for them. you don't care about the circumstances of what is really going on.
you don't have a bit of a problem with creating laws that control others who are actualized, not potentials, and criminalizing something that doesn't affect another actual human being. doesn't even affect you.
you're projecting your emotions and beliefs on what isn't human. anyone psychologically mature shouldn't be playing with dolls, or other people as objects and shouldn't be playing make believe; especially with other's lives.
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If I would not sense any consciousness in you, would I have right to abort you from this life?
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
The embryo does not attach by will or thought, it's just biology.
No it is not. You said fetus is alive, so abortion is impermissible. Cockroach is alive, so killing it is also impermissible. What quality does a fetus possess that makes it have rights and not our poor little roach?
Once again.No! You didn't just compare a blastocyst to an ordinary one cell bacteria! You are lucky when you were in your blastocyst stage trying to attach to your host (your mother) - your mother didn't treat you like an ordinary bacteria!
By the way, there are good (beneficial) bacteria as well. They are called Probiotics. We need them to survive! It fights the bad bacteria and restore the balance within the body. Good ones keep us healthy by supporting our immune function. Certain type of good bacteria also helps break down food and thus help our body digest. It does many other things. You won't survive without them.
Anyhow, the reason I mentioned blastocyst and after "plantation" stage - is because at this stage the embryo clearly shows signs of survival instinct. It shows signs of resistance from any possible rejection from the host. It not only creates an environment for its own survival - it even triggers hormonal changes in the mother to prepare the endometrium to receive and envelop the blastocyst. Many things works simultaneously to help the blastocyst to embed into the uterine wall.
Of course, one can argue life begins at fertilization with the Embryo's conception. However, I believe - it becomes a mother's job to facilitate when the blastocyst attaches itself to the uterine wall. To do anything to detach it from there should be considered a violation. Most of us (human) won't even break a bird's nest with eggs in it. Even if a bird build a nest in a wrong place - most of us would wait until the eggs are hatched and the babies are safely moved. So, why no remorse in the case of a human? Why support this?
Blastocyst (multi cell) is a later stage than Zygote (single cell). Even a zygote contains all of the genetic information (DNA) needed to become a baby. The fusion of the sperm (with 23 chromosomes) and the oocyte (with 23 chromosomes) at fertilization results in a live human being, a single-cell human zygote, with 46 chromosomes and that has all the characteristics of an individual member of the human species. At Zygote stage it is already determined if its going to be a boy or a girl!
I believe the life of the fetus should be protected from the moment of conception. The unborn should be considered as born from the moment it shows sign of self preservation. By creating an environment to attach to the uterine wall and by attaching and growing - an embryo shows more signs of survival instinct than even grown humans. Giving it the privilege is the right thing to do. IMO
A cockroach or a bacteria has survival instinct. Should insecticides and antibacterial sprays be made illegal then?
leroy
Well-Known Member
Lack of consciousness and not feeling pain seem irrelevant in the abortion debate.
The argument that some propose seems to be
1 it´s ok to kill humans when they are not conscious (even if they would conscious be in the future)
2 a fetus/embryo is not conscious
3 therefore it is ok to kill a fetus/embryo
I would reject premise 1 / otherwise it would be ok to kill a human while he is sleeping or under the effect of anesthesia
So the equation on weather if a 25weeks old fetus is conscious or not is very interesting but irrelevant in the abortion debate
leroy
Well-Known Member
In your opinion, why is it “not so wrong” to kill a cockroach but it is wrong to kill a 1yo baby? What relevant difference is there.
I would argue that humans have an intrinsic value that insects lack and and therefore a humans fetuses also has an intrinsic value that insects lack