Fighting Two Fronts

[Ben Masada]

Fighting Two Fronts

Turnorburn, I am here. Just happened to arrive. But I am neither for you nor for Atheists. Although my double-edged sword can cut both ways, I need no Christian help with Atheists. So, if you can't take the heat, you might choose now to leave the kitchen, before the cooking starts.

Well, my dear hosts, you have become famous for the cliche that God does not exist. I have news for you. I am ready to become an Atheist. Yes, just like you; as soon as you tell me where the Universe comes from. I mean, how the Universe came about without a Creator or the Primal Mover, to coin Philosophical rhetoric.

And please, do not discard my question as nonsense or tell me that you don't know, because Atheism itself will lose all its raison d'etre. One cannot discard an axiom if he can't replace it with an option. If you choose to look at my question as too simplistic, you might take that way out, as long as you leave with it; and I mean, leave and not live.

There are two psalms for Atheists in the Bible, which the Psalmist, ironically, wrote twice, ipsisssima verba. By mistake or on purpose, I'll let you figure. They are Psalms 14 and 53. But I believe the Psalmist's message is for Atheists who have no option to God's non-existence.

Well, you are in. Let us get down to business about the issue of the Universe without a Creator, will ya?

Ben

 

[gnomon]

I don't know "where" the universe comes from.

How's that for a start?

Psalm 14

1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

What if the "fool" says that there are two gods?

This passage sounds like a poor attempt to basically, in logical terms, ad hom anyone who is skeptical of the existence of a God that fits a particularly narrow definition, being Yahweh, and does not accept it's existence. And would all goyim fit this description by default?

Psalm 53
1 The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;
there is no one who does good.
2 God looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
4 Do all these evildoers know nothing?
They devour my people as though eating bread;
they never call on God.
5 But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
where there was nothing to dread.
God scattered the bones of those who attacked you;
you put them to shame, for God despised them.
6 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When God restores his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

Maybe it's me but I fail to see the relevancy of this psalm. It seems to speak to everyone, Jewish or gentile. Actually, the latter part of the verse seems to speak more to the chosen who ignore God.

 

[bobhikes]

Good luck with everyone I'm sure you'll get some takers.

You can't prove the universe was created or not created by God. That doesn't mean God exists. It just means you can't prove it.

You can, however; prove a religion wrong. But I don't feel like going through my hebrew tonight and you'll just say I'm interpeting it wrong.

Maybe somebody else will play.

 

[gnomon]

I just realized.....

Is this a proselytizing face off.

Sunday! Sunday! Sunday! The Atheists face off with the Theists in a no hold barred contest for Ben Masada's brain(soul) in a chair smashing, ring flying all out face smashing contest. Tune in to the SyFy channel this Tuesday!

 

[crimsonlung]

Fighting Two Fronts

Turnorburn, I am here. Just happened to arrive. But I am neither for you nor for Atheists. Although my double-edged sword can cut both ways, I need no Christian help with Atheists. So, if you can't take the heat, you might choose now to leave the kitchen, before the cooking starts.

Well, my dear hosts, you have become famous for the cliche that God does not exist. I have news for you. I am ready to become an Atheist. Yes, just like you; as soon as you tell me where the Universe comes from. I mean, how the Universe came about without a Creator or the Primal Mover, to coin Philosophical rhetoric.

And please, do not discard my question as nonsense or tell me that you don't know, because Atheism itself will lose all its raison d'etre. One cannot discard an axiom if he can't replace it with an option. If you choose to look at my question as too simplistic, you might take that way out, as long as you leave with it; and I mean, leave and not live.

There are two psalms for Atheists in the Bible, which the Psalmist, ironically, wrote twice, ipsisssima verba. By mistake or on purpose, I'll let you figure. They are Psalms 14 and 53. But I believe the Psalmist's message is for Atheists who have no option to God's non-existence.

Well, you are in. Let us get down to business about the issue of the Universe without a Creator, will ya?

Ben

Howabout I answer your question with common sense?

How many things have we found out in the past through science that we were once clueless on? The shape of the Earth, the lights in the sky, how clouds work, how grass grows? Thanks to the miracle of science, we have not only found out how it works, but how to improve it.

Your right, we don't know exactly where the Universe came from, but we sure as hell will find out.

And I must say, the Big Bang Theory sounds a lot more feasible then some guy in the sky that we cant see creating everything for no reason.

In fact, I think I will start my own religion called Big Bang-ology, whos in?

 

[crimsonlung]

I just realized.....

Is this a proselytizing face off.

Sunday! Sunday! Sunday! The Atheists face off with the Theists in a no hold barred contest for Ben Masada's brain(soul) in a chair smashing, ring flying all out face smashing contest. Tune in to the SyFy channel this Tuesday!

The Irony of "Sunday"

 

[Tarheeler]

The Irony of "Sunday"

Maybe if he was Christian.

 

[gnomon]

Howabout I answer your question with common sense?

How many things have we found out in the past through science that we were once clueless on? The shape of the Earth, the lights in the sky, how clouds work, how grass grows? Thanks to the miracle of science, we have not only found out how it works, but how to improve it.

Your right, we don't know exactly where the Universe came from, but we sure as hell will find out.

But science doesn't equal atheism. The shape of the Earth was well known for a long time to religious believers. The heliocentric model was posited by religious believers. Most aspects of biology were discovered by religious believers.

To them, it was just a greater understanding of God.

 

[gnomon]

The Irony of "Sunday"

Well, I think monster truck rally's are still held on Sunday's.

Funny story. A complete aside from the OP. A bunch of friends of mine and I went to see a horrible play of the "Christmas Carol" at the High Museum in Atlanta. It was a really poor multicultural rendition with a reggae ghost of Christmas Present, etc. Anyway, the ghost of Christmas Future was for the most part a guy in a skeleton outfit and a black robe but at one point the lights dimmed and a large "bot" that was the ghost of Christmas Future came out to point Scrooge's grave. It was like a monster truck when skeletal part of this monstrosity rose up with a mechanical arm, ridiculous red lights for eyes and smoke pouring out of it to point out the grave. My friends and I screamed out from the back row "Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!". We couldn't help it and I know the actors heard us. It was so bad.

Anyway.......universe and stuff.

 

[crimsonlung]

But science doesn't equal atheism.

What does this have to do with anything? Your asking us to turn you Athiest if we can prove how the universe came about, I'm telling you we will find out, and we will.

The shape of the Earth was well known for a long time to religious believers. The heliocentric model was posited by religious believers. Most aspects of biology were discovered by religious believers.

To them, it was just a greater understanding of God.

What about discovering new planets, stars, black holes, etc. We are discovering more about the universe everyday. We know what mineral Venus is made out of, what makes you think we wont find something that leads to how we were created?

What if we found the edge of the Universe and found a single meteor that was creating the universe at an incredibly slow pace so that we were able to catch up with it? Then what? Would you pray to that rock?

You have no more proof that god exists then we do of where the Universe came from, BUT, half the text in the Torah can be refuted easily with basic logic.

 

[gnomon]

What does this have to do with anything? Your asking us to turn you Athiest if we can prove how the universe came about, I'm telling you we will find out, and we will.




What about discovering new planets, stars, black holes, etc. We are discovering more about the universe everyday. We know what mineral Venus is made out of, what makes you think we wont find something that leads to how we were created?

What if we found the edge of the Universe and found a single meteor that was creating the universe at an incredibly slow pace so that we were able to catch up with it? Then what? Would you pray to that rock?

You have no more proof that god exists then we do of where the Universe came from, BUT, half the text in the Torah can be refuted easily with basic logic.

Whoah!

I agree with you there. I'm an atheist.

It's just that the multiple concepts of God cannot be refuted by science. Especially pantheism. Isaac Asimov wrote a great little short story about the concept of pantheism.

I was merely pointing out that many religious believers who were scientists that made those discoveries and found no problem fitting those scientific discoveries in with their theism. I don't think anyone until Darwin and Galileo truly made a scientific discovery that challenged their theism. There may have been more but Nikolai Kopernick, Leibniz, Newton, Brahe and many others had no problem with their science and religion coexisting.

edit: Want to add Lucretius in that mix although I have no idea what his religious beliefs actually were.

 

[Falvlun]

So, in other words, just because we might not have an answer about how the universe came to be now, we should just make up an answer. I know! Let's just say God did it. Because that worked out so well for explaining rain and thunder and other phenomenen... that was later shown to be caused by natural processes. Oh, darn. I guess just plugging God in didn't work so well.

 

[gnomon]

So, in other words, just because we might not have an answer about how the universe came to be now, we should just make up an answer. I know! Let's just say God did it. Because that worked out so well for explaining rain and thunder and other phenomenen... that was later shown to be caused by natural processes. Oh, darn. I guess just plugging God in didn't work so well.

Isn't it nice to just fill in the gaps with whatever you want.

If I had my choice, I would choose Tolkien's mythology. Anyone who has read the Silmarillion would recognize Tolkien's love of music. That and his mythology is so much more compelling than all the old ones.

Frodo lives!

 

[crimsonlung]

Whoah!

I agree with you there. I'm an atheist.

It's just that the multiple concepts of God cannot be refuted by science. Especially pantheism. Isaac Asimov wrote a great little short story about the concept of pantheism.

I was merely pointing out that many religious believers who were scientists that made those discoveries and found no problem fitting those scientific discoveries in with their theism. I don't think anyone until Darwin and Galileo truly made a scientific discovery that challenged their theism. There may have been more but Nikolai Kopernick, Leibniz, Newton, Brahe and many others had no problem with their science and religion coexisting.

edit: Want to add Lucretius in that mix although I have no idea what his religious beliefs actually were.

Well, Science wasn't as big back then, not only that, but alot of "scientists" (back then, they were considered more as a theologist) were looked down upon and denied operation since many of their findings contradicted religious belief. And in those days, Religion was the equivalent to government today.

 

[gnomon]

Well, Science wasn't as big back then, not only that, but alot of "scientists" (back then, they were considered more as a theologist) were looked down upon and denied operation since many of their findings contradicted religious belief. And in those days, Religion was the equivalent to government today.

That's true.

I think we'll have to wait for Ben to respond to figure out exactly what this thread is about.

 

[Meow Mix]

Well, my dear hosts, you have become famous for the cliche that God does not exist. I have news for you. I am ready to become an Atheist. Yes, just like you; as soon as you tell me where the Universe comes from. I mean, how the Universe came about without a Creator or the Primal Mover, to coin Philosophical rhetoric.

...

Well, you are in. Let us get down to business about the issue of the Universe without a Creator, will ya?

Ben

Hi Ben. First I'd like to point out that you're making two incorrect or at least epistemologically unsound assumptions: 1) that there was a "where" for the universe to come "from" and 2) that the universe "came" at all.

Before we can engage in any sort of meaningful discussion I must ask that you explain the basis for these hidden assumptions, as they're quite vital to where this discussion can take us.

I'm a cosmology student and I can assure you that even though the mass media (and even physicists like Stephen Hawking) like to talk about the universe "coming from nowhere" that this is actually a "dumbing down" of terms to be distributed to a public with dubious scientific understanding. There is nothing about modern physics that suggests the universe "came" or that it came from "nowhere" or even "somewhere." In truth, the evidence (in terms of piecing together events backwards in time) stops shortly after the Big Bang Event (BBE); namely at the first Planck time after the BBE.

Any assertions that it was a creation ex nihilo by a deity or by a quantum accident from nothingness are utterly baseless. There are indications that the universe -- though it definitely entered a new state with the BBE -- may have always existed, and when taken with a pinch of Occam's Razor compared to creation ex nihilo it's reasonable to at least withhold judgement and at best assert that it's more rational that it has existed in other forms rather than appeared from nothing.

I'll await your reply regarding your hidden assumptions that I outlined before we continue.

 

[crimsonlung]

See, this thread was doomed as soon as it was created, ya'll forgot Meow Mix is a scholastic astronaut.

 

[Amill]

One cannot discard an axiom if he can't replace it with an option.

Right, so if I can't say that I believe or know the quarter will land heads up, then I have to believe it will be a tails? Yea makes sense...

 

[Meow Mix]

Right, so if I can't say that I believe or know the quarter will land heads up, then I have to believe it will be a tails? Yea makes sense...

Frubals, good point

If an axiom is epistemically unsound it should be discarded even if it can't be replaced with anything other than "I don't know."

 

[Ben Masada]

Howabout I answer your question with common sense?

How many things have we found out in the past through science that we were once clueless on? The shape of the Earth, the lights in the sky, how clouds work, how grass grows? Thanks to the miracle of science, we have not only found out how it works, but how to improve it.

Your right, we don't know exactly where the Universe came from, but we sure as hell will find out.

And I must say, the Big Bang Theory sounds a lot more feasible then some guy in the sky that we cant see creating everything for no reason.

In fact, I think I will start my own religion called Big Bang-ology, whos in?

The Big Bang did not happen out of the blue or nothing. Something must have been there which caused or was the cause of that cosmic exploson. Where did it come from to result in the formation of the universe? As you can see, I am not discarding your views about the origin of the universe from a Big Bang. But to say that the theory of the Big Bang is much more feasible, you have got questions to answer.
Ben