Fighting with God

[Estro Felino]

Sorry for the particularly unusual title.
I was wondering why we Catholics pray to Jesus and Mary (Mary, especially) more than God.

Well...it is not that simple to explain. We think of God as that distant, cold Almighty Being who left us alone when he decided to give us free will.
That is why Evolution works like a charm for us.
It is the evidence that God has never cared and never will. Nature evolves regardless of God.
Whereas some Protestants won't accept Evolution, because they love God more than us.



And I will conclude by quoting a passage from The Thorn Birds. By C. Mc Collough.

Oh, dear God, dear God! No, not dear God! What's God ever done for me, except deprive me of Ralph? We're not too fond of each other, God and I. And do You know something, God? You don't frighten me the way You used to. How much I feared You, your punishment! All my life I've trodden the straight and narrow, from fear of You. And what's it got me? Not one scrap more than if I'd broken every rule in Your book. You're a fraud, God, a demon of fear. You treat us like children, dangling punishment. But you don't frighten me anymore. Because it isn't Ralph I ought to be hating, it's You. It's all Your fault's. Not poor Ralph's. He's just living in fear of you, the way I always have. That he could love You is something I can't understand. I don't see what there is about You to love.


I confess it is like I wrote that myself. The author is portraying a Catholic's thoughts, after all.
The thoughts of a woman who cannot have the man she loves because he dedicated his life to God.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Sorry for the particularly unusual title.
I was wondering why we Catholics pray to Jesus and Mary (Mary, especially) more than God.

Well...it is not that simple to explain. We think of God as that distant, cold Almighty Being who left us alone when he decided to give us free will.
That is why Evolution works like a charm for us.
It is the evidence that God has never cared and never will. Nature evolves regardless of God.
Whereas some Protestants won't accept Evolution, because they love God more than us.

Actually, the Catholic Church has no official position on Evolution, and half of Catholics believe in Creationism.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Couldn't deism get one excommunicated from the Catholic Church, as well?

 

[Estro Felino]

Actually, the Catholic Church has no official position on Evolution, and half of Catholics believe in Creationism.

The RCC doesn't encourage Creationism.
Catholic Universities strictly follow the national curricula of biology, which include Darwin, Evolution, all the discoveries within the last 2 centuries.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Your title is honest and true - no apology is necessary.

God wants us to pretend that we are still in paradise together. When we reject the lie and look honestly at the suffering in the world and condemn God for it, then he becomes distant. He will even cause us to doubt his existence rather than be judged and condemned, which he hates.

If we continue to stand in truth and condemn the world, then God will become more hostile toward us. He will flip judgment and condemnation back onto you.

Even when you see the world and can no longer see God, don’t stop believing in and judging him appropriately. Forgive and love him when you have the strength to do that, but never stop judging and condemning him. Pay no mind to those who tell you otherwise.

 

[Estro Felino]

Your title is honest and true - no apology is necessary.

God wants us to pretend that we are still in paradise together. When we reject the lie and look honestly at the suffering in the world and condemn God for it, then he becomes distant. He will even cause us to doubt his existence rather than be judged and condemned, which he hates.

If we continue to stand in truth and condemn the world, then God will become more hostile toward us. He will flip judgment and condemnation back onto you.

Even when you see the world and can no longer see God, don’t stop believing in and judging him appropriately. Forgive and love him when you have the strength to do that, but never stop judging and condemning him. Pay no mind to those who tell you otherwise.

I do. Thank you so much for your beautiful words.

 

[Spiderman]

I love the OP

 

[RestlessSoul]

Lots of the Old Testament, including almost half the Psalms, seem to consist of arguments with God. Even Christ on the cross called out “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (He was quoting Psalm 22). I heard a story once that a group of devout Jews put God on trial during WWII.

Praying to Jesus and Mary, rather than directly to an abstract and distant God, allows for prayer to be more of an intimate experience. Having said that, I no longer think God is abstract or distant. A mystery yes, but distant, no.

I still say my Hail Marys as I find it comforting to do so. Even the Son of God had to have a mother, and she suffered the greatest hurt of all, watching men kill her son. We all have to suffer, but we are all redeemed by love in the end.

 

[Deeje]

What an interesting post....thank you for this insight....I had no idea that Catholics felt this way....

Sorry for the particularly unusual title.
I was wondering why we Catholics pray to Jesus and Mary (Mary, especially) more than God.

Well...it is not that simple to explain. We think of God as that distant, cold Almighty Being who left us alone when he decided to give us free will.

Can you explain how God became this "cold Almighty Being" who left humanity "alone when he decided to give us free will"?
You have me intrigued....

That is why Evolution works like a charm for us.
It is the evidence that God has never cared and never will. Nature evolves regardless of God.
Whereas some Protestants won't accept Evolution, because they love God more than us.

That is quite an admission....since God has demonstrated great care for his human children even after their fall into sin. He sent his son to die for us so that sin and suffering and death could eventually be eradicated from our lives, permanently.

But first all of his children needed to learn the value of obedience. Both the angels and the humans rebelled in Eden, and needed lessons to be learned. The only way to teach them about how much God cared for them, provided for them and protected them, was to withdraw from them and allow them to experience the full impact of their decision to be independent from him. Like the devil, they wanted to do things "their" way....so God allowed them to do so without his interference. Does that mean he didn't care about them? On the contrary it is part of our discipline....do parents discipline their children because they have stopped caring about them? or is it to teach them a valuable lesson, so that they will not repeat it? Discipline is evidence of God's love...but sometimes it hurts. (Hebrews 12:5-6, 11) If it left no lasting impression then what would be the point?

And I will conclude by quoting a passage from The Thorn Birds. By C. Mc Collough.

Oh, dear God, dear God! No, not dear God! What's God ever done for me, except deprive me of Ralph? We're not too fond of each other, God and I. And do You know something, God? You don't frighten me the way You used to. How much I feared You, your punishment! All my life I've trodden the straight and narrow, from fear of You. And what's it got me? Not one scrap more than if I'd broken every rule in Your book. You're a fraud, God, a demon of fear. You treat us like children, dangling punishment. But you don't frighten me anymore. Because it isn't Ralph I ought to be hating, it's You. It's all Your fault's. Not poor Ralph's. He's just living in fear of you, the way I always have. That he could love You is something I can't understand. I don't see what there is about You to love.

Wow!....not sure how can you quote such words and then say that "it is like I wrote that myself"?
If you cannot love God because you believe that he has deprived you of something you want......how do you ever expect to receive his blessing, which is only given to those who, like Job, did not allow themselves to be overreached by the devil? Do you know how much was taken from Job? He represents all of us. If we cannot follow in his footsteps, maintaining our integrity in the face of adversity, then our faith is useless and will lead us nowhere. God rewards those who prove faithful under test. (Hebrews 11:6)
The devil claims that we don't love God enough to obey him when it means sacrifice. Are you suggesting that Catholics do not love God enough?

The author is portraying a Catholic's thoughts, after all.
The thoughts of a woman who cannot have the man she loves because he dedicated his life to God.

How is that God's fault? Did you know that there is no impediment for a minister of God to be married?
Many of the first "Popes" were married......so, who made the rule that they can't?

Dedicating ones life to God does not have to be at the expense of a mate......the apostle Peter was married. (Mark 1:29-31) Loving a man who had dedicated his life to God is a good basis for marriage because such a partnership has the strength of three parties.
King Solomon put it this way....
Ecclesiastes 4:9-12....
"Two are better than one because they have a good reward for their hard work. 10 For if one of them falls, the other can help his partner up. But what will happen to the one who falls with no one to help him up?

11 Moreover, if two lie down together, they will stay warm, but how can just one keep warm? 12 And someone may overpower one alone, but two together can take a stand against him. And a threefold cord cannot quickly be torn apart."
So two are good as they strengthen each other, but having God in your relationship is the third cord which makes a marriage even stronger.

It was the church which deviated from the scriptures to practice their own traditions on marriage....nothing to do with God, I'm afraid. IMO, if the woman in your quote had known her Bible as well as she had known church tradition, she would never have uttered such disgraceful and disrespectful words. She would have put the blame where it lay.....at the door of the church....not in a clenched fist shaken in anger at God.

 

[stvdv]

Your title is honest and true - no apology is necessary.

I agree

God wants us to pretend that we are still in paradise together.

I never heard 'God' say "I want you to pretend". How can you be so (100%) sure about what "God want us to do"?

When we reject the lie and look honestly at the suffering in the world and condemn God for it, then he becomes distant.

Again, not how I see it

 

[stvdv]

He will even cause us to doubt his existence rather than be judged and condemned, which he hates.

I don't know what God hates or not right now, have you asked God? Or do you mean "allegedly, according to some mortal humans/Scriptures"?

He will even cause us to doubt his existence rather than be judged and condemned, which he hates.

I 'perceive/see' God as Love, non-judgmental and not condemning

If we continue to stand in truth and condemn the world, then God will become more hostile toward us.

I never came across a hostile God; humans on the other hand can be quite hostile; but I do not superimpose that on God

He will flip judgment and condemnation back onto you.

Strange again, how you know all of this?

 

[stvdv]

Even when you see the world and can no longer see God, don’t stop believing in and judging him appropriately.

I agree that it is good to "believe in God appropriately" AND to "judge Him appropriately"

Forgive and love him when you have the strength to do that, but never stop judging and condemning him.

I have no problem with that

Pay no mind to those who tell you otherwise.

I agree, best to ask God personally, I rather not "blindly" believe humans

 

[Estro Felino]

What an interesting post....thank you for this insight....I had no idea that Catholics felt this way....


Can you explain how God became this "cold Almighty Being" who left humanity "alone when he decided to give us free will"?
You have me intrigued....


That is quite an admission....since God has demonstrated great care for his human children even after their fall into sin. He sent his son to die for us so that sin and suffering and death could eventually be eradicated from our lives, permanently.

But first all of his children needed to learn the value of obedience. Both the angels and the humans rebelled in Eden, and needed lessons to be learned. The only way to teach them about how much God cared for them, provided for them and protected them, was to withdraw from them and allow them to experience the full impact of their decision to be independent from him. Like the devil, they wanted to do things "their" way....so God allowed them to do so without his interference. Does that mean he didn't care about them? On the contrary it is part of our discipline....do parents discipline their children because they have stopped caring about them? or is it to teach them a valuable lesson, so that they will not repeat it? Discipline is evidence of God's love...but sometimes it hurts. (Hebrews 12:5-6, 11) If it left no lasting impression then what would be the point?


Wow!....not sure how can you quote such words and then say that "it is like I wrote that myself"?
If you cannot love God because you believe that he has deprived you of something you want......how do you ever expect to receive his blessing, which is only given to those who, like Job, did not allow themselves to be overreached by the devil? Do you know how much was taken from Job? He represents all of us. If we cannot follow in his footsteps, maintaining our integrity in the face of adversity, then our faith is useless and will lead us nowhere. God rewards those who prove faithful under test. (Hebrews 11:6)
The devil claims that we don't love God enough to obey him when it means sacrifice. Are you suggesting that Catholics do not love God enough?


How is that God's fault? Did you know that there is no impediment for a minister of God to be married?
Many of the first "Popes" were married......so, who made the rule that they can't?

Dedicating ones life to God does not have to be at the expense of a mate......the apostle Peter was married. (Mark 1:29-31) Loving a man who had dedicated his life to God is a good basis for marriage because such a partnership has the strength of three parties.
King Solomon put it this way....
Ecclesiastes 4:9-12....
"Two are better than one because they have a good reward for their hard work. 10 For if one of them falls, the other can help his partner up. But what will happen to the one who falls with no one to help him up?

11 Moreover, if two lie down together, they will stay warm, but how can just one keep warm? 12 And someone may overpower one alone, but two together can take a stand against him. And a threefold cord cannot quickly be torn apart."
So two are good as they strengthen each other, but having God in your relationship is the third cord which makes a marriage even stronger.

It was the church which deviated from the scriptures to practice their own traditions on marriage....nothing to do with God, I'm afraid. IMO, if the woman in your quote had known her Bible as well as she had known church tradition, she would never have uttered such disgraceful and disrespectful words. She would have put the blame where it lay.....at the door of the church....not in a clenched fist shaken in anger at God.

I perfectly understand your insightful reasoning. It is very deep and incontradictible.
With this thread I meant that we Catholics do love God, of course as we do love our fathers.
But most of the times we are unable to understand what is good for us.
Because he gave us free will. That's all.

 

[Brian2]

Sorry for the particularly unusual title.
I was wondering why we Catholics pray to Jesus and Mary (Mary, especially) more than God.

Well...it is not that simple to explain. We think of God as that distant, cold Almighty Being who left us alone when he decided to give us free will.
That is why Evolution works like a charm for us.
It is the evidence that God has never cared and never will. Nature evolves regardless of God.
Whereas some Protestants won't accept Evolution, because they love God more than us.



And I will conclude by quoting a passage from The Thorn Birds. By C. Mc Collough.

Oh, dear God, dear God! No, not dear God! What's God ever done for me, except deprive me of Ralph? We're not too fond of each other, God and I. And do You know something, God? You don't frighten me the way You used to. How much I feared You, your punishment! All my life I've trodden the straight and narrow, from fear of You. And what's it got me? Not one scrap more than if I'd broken every rule in Your book. You're a fraud, God, a demon of fear. You treat us like children, dangling punishment. But you don't frighten me anymore. Because it isn't Ralph I ought to be hating, it's You. It's all Your fault's. Not poor Ralph's. He's just living in fear of you, the way I always have. That he could love You is something I can't understand. I don't see what there is about You to love.


I confess it is like I wrote that myself. The author is portraying a Catholic's thoughts, after all.
The thoughts of a woman who cannot have the man she loves because he dedicated his life to God.

I believe God likes honesty in our relationship with Him.

 

[metis]

I was wondering why we Catholics pray to Jesus and Mary (Mary, especially) more than God.

Actually, during the mass Mary is only mentioned but obviously Jesus is mentioned a lot. I prefer to say that many of us pray through Mary, such as the words of the Rosary that say "pray for us...".

The early Church believed in what's called "the communion of saints", such as found in the Apostle's Creed, and "saints" was a reference to those of the faith both alive and deceased as they both are of the "Kingdom of God".

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Is it possible that the religion’s male leadership are the ones who created the fear?
Why do people often blame God for the problems created by religion?

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

But first all of his children needed to learn the value of obedience. Both the angels and the humans rebelled in Eden, and needed lessons to be learned

I cannot see any evidence of rebellion in Eden, in the Eden story.
Genesis 1 tells us a man and a woman were created, and they were told to be fruitful and multiply.
Also they are told that every fruit of a tree yielding seed shall be good for meat.
Apparently they were fruitful and multiplied, since the earth is pretty full today.

Then Genesis 2 is the first mention of Eden, and it is a garden planted eastward. Eastward of what? Eastward of the earth perhaps?
And another man is created and put there. Then a woman comes along and eats a fruit. Obviously that was a problem in this garden, but it wasn’t a problem for all the people created in Genesis 1, since they were told that every fruit is ok.

I don’t get the whole sin problem. A couple of people allegedly sinned by simply eating fruit, but still everyone else outside the garden did nothing wrong.

Then they are driven out of the garden. There is no mention of angels anywhere in this Eden story.

What am I missing?

Not trying to be a pain, but what you say doesn’t fit with what I read in the story.

 

[Nakosis]

Sorry for the particularly unusual title.
I was wondering why we Catholics pray to Jesus and Mary (Mary, especially) more than God.

Perhaps the sternness of a Father needs the caring of a mother.
Catholicism started out as a pretty stern belief.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I 'perceive/see' God as Love, non-judgmental and not condemning

I see this too. It is paradox. Eclipse. Subjective vs objective. The Book of Job wrestles with this topic directly.

 

[Deeje]

I perfectly understand your insightful reasoning. It is very deep and incontradictible.
With this thread I meant that we Catholics do love God, of course as we do love our fathers.
But most of the times we are unable to understand what is good for us.
Because he gave us free will. That's all.

Thank you for the clarification, but I did not see that in the OP.

When you say...
“...most of the times we are unable to understand what is good for us. Because he gave us free will.” I am puzzled.....

Along with free will, he also gave us his instructions. The first humans were given one simple command...and it was not difficult at all.....of all the trees in the garden, God claimed just one as his own. The fruit of that tree was his property and as their rightful Sovereign, his commands were binding on them.

Free will was to be a gift, granted within the boundaries set by the Creator, who knew exactly what he was doing in providing intelligent beings, made in his image (given his moral qualities, thinking abilities, as well as physical bodies capable of carrying out all that he required of them) to fulfill their assignment here on this earth. As his representatives, they were to “fill the earth and subdue it” whist enjoying the generosity of their God in providing bountifully for their needs. They had an amazing start.

“The tree of the knowledge of good and evil” was just one tree that was off limits as a simple test of their obedience. It represented God’s Sovereign right to set the rules by which they were to live. Like the angels, humans were not designed for self-rule...they were designed to be ruled by God. No harm in the form of evil would ever have touched them, if they had respected God’s property, his Sovereignty, and obeyed his command. The eating of that fruit was the only cause of death in Eden. Putting the death penalty on it as a result of disobedience, should have been enough to let the humans know how important it was to not even touch the fruit of God’s tree. No hardship was imposed by this one rule.

In contrast, there was a second tree in the garden....”the tree of life”....there was free access to the tree of life so that the humans had the physical means to keep living...forever. As long as they remained obedient, they would live to carry out all that was required of them and their children in beautiful surroundings as they filled the earth with their children and extended the boundaries of paradise till the whole world resembled the original garden. That was God’s original purpose for the earth....everlasting life right here on earth, taking care of God’s creation.

What a fantastic scenario.....if only a rebel spirit had not abused his free will in order to obtain worship for himself. The scenario would have had a very different outcome if the humans had simply obeyed that one command....but he tempted the woman, who was the newer member of the human race, and she was to become “the mother of everyone living”. The devil knew that he could use the woman to tempt the man....and it worked. From that day on sin and death would rule in mankind as they reaped what they had sown. Free will would then become a curse because human imperfection would now lead them to keep on abusing it.

Having been evicted from the garden, never to return, these two had the sentence of death affect their whole being...physically, morally, mentally and spiritually, but death did not happen immediately. God would allow them to fulfill the first part of his mandate to “fill the earth” but they and their children would bear the full force of their choice. Knowing good and bad for themselves had serious repercussions. Could they really tell the difference? Time would demonstrate the wisdom of God in answering that question.

Sin is powerful in us, leading us to make bad choices based on selfishness and disregard for the free will of others......so within one generation a murderer was produced because of a selfish jealousy....not in a ‘spur of the moment’ act of rage, but in a planned act of premeditated murder. Humans have been killing each other ever since.

Yet, even in their punishment, God did not leave the humans without guidance. Especially for their children who would be born with the stain of sin in their DNA through no fault on their part. Hence God implemented a rescue mission for them by sending his son to pay the debt that Adam left for them. He would become their redeemer.

The first righteous man mentioned in the Scriptures was Abel. Though he lived a relatively short life, he proved that sin was no excuse for disobedience. He proved by his conduct that he would obey his God unselfishly. Many others followed down through time and also proved the value of obedience to God’s direction.
Their reward is assured. (Hebrews ch 11)

That is the story that the Bible teaches me.....