Finding the right path - Hinduism/Buddhism

[Tom Ciocco]

Hello all-

New to the forum and glad to be here. I'll try to keep this question as short as possible.

I have done quite a bit of reading about the many schools of Hinduism and Buddhism and I am a regular "secular" meditator.

Here is my dilemma: I feel connected and attracted to the metaphysics of Hinduism (especially Vishistavaita Vedanta and Yoga) but I find the trappings of all of the many deities, caste, etc. to be off-putting.

Similarly, I find the simplicity (obviously depending on the school) and focus of Buddhism very attractive, but try as I might, I cannot get past my perception of reductiveness and pessimism of the starting point in Buddhism, The Four Noble Truths.

So, here's my question to the forum:

Is there some "mid-point" school between Hinduism and Buddhism? I think if there is, for my thinking, it might be more likely to lie on the Hindu side rather than the Buddhist, but clearly. I'm not sure.

So, in a very small, perhaps slightly reductive nutshell, this is my quandry, and I look forward to any and all comments, questions, and guidance. Thanks.

Tom Ciocco

 

[Vinayaka]

Both faiths are practical faiths. Have you been to a Buddhist temple? A Hindu temple? Have you associated with devoted people of either faith for awhile? My point is that there is a lot more to it than philosophy.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

Hello all-

New to the forum and glad to be here. I'll try to keep this question as short as possible.

I have done quite a bit of reading about the many schools of Hinduism and Buddhism and I am a regular "secular" meditator.

Here is my dilemma: I feel connected and attracted to the metaphysics of Hinduism (especially Vishistavaita Vedanta and Yoga) but I find the trappings of all of the many deities, caste, etc. to be off-putting.

Similarly, I find the simplicity (obviously depending on the school) and focus of Buddhism very attractive, but try as I might, I cannot get past my perception of reductiveness and pessimism of the starting point in Buddhism, The Four Noble Truths.

So, here's my question to the forum:

Is there some "mid-point" school between Hinduism and Buddhism? I think if there is, for my thinking, it might be more likely to lie on the Hindu side rather than the Buddhist, but clearly. I'm not sure.

So, in a very small, perhaps slightly reductive nutshell, this is my quandry, and I look forward to any and all comments, questions, and guidance. Thanks.

Tom Ciocco

I don't think anyone is ever 100% in sync with their faith because you either have to accept that there will be things you don't agree with or you have to combine two or more aspects of different faiths. (Nothing wrong with that, but if you do, don't label yourself as one or the other, because that wouldn't be honest or accurate)

Caste for example - As a Hindu, I find the idea abhorrent, but I acknowledge that it has been a social construct in India and a part of Hinduism, at least in some form, for a long time. This doesn't mean I accept it - on the contrary, I think it's our duty to look critically at our faith and see what is no longer relevant to today's society and try to grow beyond those things that are no longer morally justifiable.

A part of that is acknowledging the parts of our faith we feel uncomfortable with and don't like, rather than ignoring them. You can't change what you don't admit exists.

Basically my advice is to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Find a path that works for you, but know that if you choose a pre-existing label there are likly to be things you don't agree with. Doubt is essential to growth. Use what you disagree with to expand your wisdom/learn more about yourself and the world.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Namaste, Tom (may we call you Tom?), and please accept a very warm welcome to RF in general and to the Hinduism DIR in particular. Many others here will echo these sincere sentiments.

"Pessimism" is in the eye of the beholder, of course. It's always what our mind does with a concept, any concept, rather than the concept itself which creates issues for a seeker. This is true for practitioners of ALL "the religions" because it's the nature of the mind. This goes for the trappings of caste and deities and rituals, too. But you're probably right, the flexibility of Hinduism will probably suit your nature. I'm always cautioning people about trying to stick a label on themselves, though, trying "to fit" themselves into a particular named basket or school of thought. In the end, if the school you pick doesn't lead you to the revelation of Truth already indwelling within you (Buddhism and Hinduism both agree on this point), you can know, ipso facto, you're in the "wrong" class.

If you tell us more about your natural inclinations, i.e., intellectually oriented, heart oriented, service to people oriented, you'll get clues from some very knowledgeable people in this forum, clues which will help you focus your search.

Welcome aboard!

 

[Aupmanyav]

Here is my dilemma: I feel connected and attracted to the metaphysics of Hinduism (especially Vishistavaita Vedanta and Yoga) but I find the trappings of all of the many deities, caste, etc. to be off-putting.

Similarly, I find the simplicity (obviously depending on the school) and focus of Buddhism very attractive, but try as I might, I cannot get past my perception of reductiveness and pessimism of the starting point in Buddhism, The Four Noble Truths.

Welcome to the forum, Tom. Hinduism gives you the freedom to mold your belief the way you want. Just abandon what you do not like and add what you like. Hinduism is a free-form religion. the only requirement is 'dharma' (fulfilling your duties and engaging in righteous action). The four Noble Truths are more like an introduction. The real part is the Noble Eight-Fold path. Buddha turned the wheel of 'dharma' which had stopped - a reiteration of 'dharma', in Pali language, 'dhamma'. That is no different from 'dharma' in Hinduism. Most people in the Hinduism forum rever Buddha as much as any deity in Hinduism.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

@Fireside_Hindu made a telling point when she wrote that the abominations of the caste system was/is more of a "social construct" than a tenet of Hinduism. I hold it as a bastardization of the original idea which was that different souls are more suited to one broadly classed endeavor than another. It is a fact of material existence that God speaks and man takes it from there and does some really weird things with it. There's no religion in the world which hasn't suffered the same fate.

 

[Vinayaka]

I hold it as a bastardization of the original idea which was that different souls are more suited to one broadly classed endeavor than another.

This is the way I view it as well. Add that to the fact that most people just followed in their parent's footsteps quite naturally as a matter of convenience, and with the cultural norms (children of kings became kings, farm children became farmers, etc.) and you get occupation (caste) by birth.

That part of it is just common sense. What isn't common sense is caste based discrimination, and the extreme rigid thing that it became. I don't thionk it was ever intended to become that way.

 

[Bhadr]

Hello all-

New to the forum and glad to be here. I'll try to keep this question as short as possible.

I have done quite a bit of reading about the many schools of Hinduism and Buddhism and I am a regular "secular" meditator.

Here is my dilemma: I feel connected and attracted to the metaphysics of Hinduism (especially Vishistavaita Vedanta and Yoga) but I find the trappings of all of the many deities, caste, etc. to be off-putting.

Similarly, I find the simplicity (obviously depending on the school) and focus of Buddhism very attractive, but try as I might, I cannot get past my perception of reductiveness and pessimism of the starting point in Buddhism, The Four Noble Truths.

So, here's my question to the forum:

Is there some "mid-point" school between Hinduism and Buddhism? I think if there is, for my thinking, it might be more likely to lie on the Hindu side rather than the Buddhist, but clearly. I'm not sure.

So, in a very small, perhaps slightly reductive nutshell, this is my quandry, and I look forward to any and all comments, questions, and guidance. Thanks.

Tom Ciocco

Hi,
Welcome to RF.

Rephrasing your post as questions to get a clearer view.

- Are you not satisfied by practicing 'secular meditation'?(I don't know what it is though.)Are you looking for something more/different?What exactly(in terms of practice)?
- Vishistadvaita Vedanta and Yoga,aren't they two different Darshanas? Wouldn't it better to choose one among them first?Maybe do some more deeper study?
- I have not heard of a Vedantic school that is not connected with a deity.(Is there any such living tradition?)(Maybe Neo-Advaita?)
- Why do you think any school of Buddhism is simple?Isn't there a vast literature of Buddhist metaphysics and didn't many internal schools evolve because they had different metaphysical interpretations?
-Vedantic Hinduism is largely theistic and Buddhism is said to be non-theistic.Both traditions always looked at themselves as philosophically distinct streams.What would the middle ground be?Theistic/Atheistic?

 

[Tom Ciocco]

Thanks for all of the quick replies, but let me directly address Sw. Vandana Jyothi:

I definitely have an intellectual bent, and particularly a philosophical one, and read a lot of philosophy, both western and eastern, which is why I feel I need to get the "theory" straight before I get into the "practice". Since I come out of Catholic Christian background, one thing that has stuck with me from that tradition is the notion of charity and service: to alleviate suffering from poverty, lack of education, etc. I'm currently tutoring a 24-year-old transgender woman who still is only reading at a 3rd grade level. I love animals (though I'm not a vegetarian, though I try to stay as far away from "factory farm" meat, and limit my consumption of meat in general). I'm also an artist (assemblage sculpture) and a musician (bass, guitar, voice) that comes out of the "do it yourself"/punk/hardcore tradition, but I also love jazz, Jamaican, Brazilian, Indian music too . I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you ask if I'm "heart oriented". I think the value of laughter and humor is almost inestimable.

There is a saying about the people that come from the region where my family comes from Italy (Abruzzo and Molise) - it's said we are "forte ma gentile" ("strong but kind/civilized") and I think that his old saying pretty well applies to me. I'm also very concerned about social justice: economic opportunity, workplace self-determination, rcial harmony, etc...

I hope that this a good second pass on characterizing myself with a view toward finding the right path to pursue, and I welcome any and all further questions and advice.

T.C.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I definitely have an intellectual bent, and particularly a philosophical one, and read a lot of philosophy, both western and eastern, which is why I feel I need to get the "theory" straight before I get into the "practice". Since I come out of Catholic Christian background, one thing that has stuck with me from that tradition is the notion of charity and service: to alleviate suffering from poverty, lack of education, etc.

I was wondering whether Advaita might suit you, but reading this I also thought about the Bodhisattva ideal, which is a central theme in Mahayana Buddhism: http://dharmanet.org/coursesM/31/bodhisattva1.htm

A lot of western Tibetan Buddhists are ex-Catholics by the way.

 

[Tom Ciocco]

Bhadr - answering your questions as they were posed:

1. I'm looking to deepen my meditation practice since I am entirely self-directed right now, but I don't want to waste time with a practice that does not suit me.

2. V. Vedanta and Yoga are two schools that, at least in my limited understanding of them, seem interesting but I don't know. The confusion here is at the heart of my questions/search

3. I didn't mean to suggest that Buddhism is "simple" in the sense of facile or shallow. Perhaps I should have said more "scientific" and/or lest "mystical" (and yes, I am quite familiar with the mystic tradition of Vajrayana Buddhism)

4. The notion of the Godhead is (the general theological study of which can be called "Diology") not monolithic nor a binary choice between yes and no. For example, Deists believe that there is a creator God who now no longer directly involves itself in the affairs of the universe and cannot be petitioned through prayer.

T.C.

 

[Tom Ciocco]

Rick O'Shez-

I've looked into Advaita, and while some of it is quite intriguing, one big sticking point for me is their notion that reality/the universe/matter is an illusion. This I don't believe, so with such an important divergence, I'm not sure, over time it might not suit me.

And yeah, Tibetan Buddhism, with all of its ritual trappings and pageantry, is a natural progression eastward for Catholics as well Orthodox Christians. For me, theTibetan tradition has a little too much "hocus pocus" for me, but again, there may be more pared-down schools with which I'm not familiar.

The Bodhisattva concept is a very familiar (and attractive) one because of its similarity with "The Christ" in Catholicism. That said, I reject the notion of a "savior" per se.

 

[Kirran]

To be honest, I went through a phase of identification with a religious label which I obviously needed at the time but am now coming out of. I kind of 'nod at' the term Hindu. So maybe it'll be good for you, but I would urge you not to cling too tight to whichever it is you get into.

You seem to already have cottoned on to the fact that there are many types of Buddhism and Hinduism to look into! Go with what your heart tells you, really, and maybe try and get more into the practicalities of it - read different teachers, go to different temples, do different meditative practices. Check out some Ramana Maharshi stuff, maybe? There's a short text about him written by a disciple of his called 'A Sadhu's Reminisces of Ramana Maharshi' which I found nice, which briefly touches on your world-is-an-illusion discomfort, which is available as an online PDF.

 

[sayak83]

Hello all-

New to the forum and glad to be here. I'll try to keep this question as short as possible.

I have done quite a bit of reading about the many schools of Hinduism and Buddhism and I am a regular "secular" meditator.

Here is my dilemma: I feel connected and attracted to the metaphysics of Hinduism (especially Vishistavaita Vedanta and Yoga) but I find the trappings of all of the many deities, caste, etc. to be off-putting.

Similarly, I find the simplicity (obviously depending on the school) and focus of Buddhism very attractive, but try as I might, I cannot get past my perception of reductiveness and pessimism of the starting point in Buddhism, The Four Noble Truths.

So, here's my question to the forum:

Is there some "mid-point" school between Hinduism and Buddhism? I think if there is, for my thinking, it might be more likely to lie on the Hindu side rather than the Buddhist, but clearly. I'm not sure.

So, in a very small, perhaps slightly reductive nutshell, this is my quandry, and I look forward to any and all comments, questions, and guidance. Thanks.

Tom Ciocco

The Vedanta doctrine and its practitioners typically expunge or eliminate most of the caste based considerations from their practice and also either remove all personal deities (Advaita) or devote themselves to one (Visishta-Advaita). So what you require is to find, in Hinduism an organization that does this and is located near you and that you find to your liking. In the meantime here is a link to the Hinduism Today magazine webpage that produces many good articles for Hindus (and people interested in Hinduism) in the global stage.

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Thanks for all of the quick replies, but let me directly address Sw. Vandana Jyothi:

I definitely have an intellectual bent, and particularly a philosophical one, and read a lot of philosophy, both western and eastern, which is why I feel I need to get the "theory" straight before I get into the "practice". Since I come out of Catholic Christian background, one thing that has stuck with me from that tradition is the notion of charity and service: to alleviate suffering from poverty, lack of education, etc. I'm currently tutoring a 24-year-old transgender woman who still is only reading at a 3rd grade level. I love animals (though I'm not a vegetarian, though I try to stay as far away from "factory farm" meat, and limit my consumption of meat in general). I'm also an artist (assemblage sculpture) and a musician (bass, guitar, voice) that comes out of the "do it yourself"/punk/hardcore tradition, but I also love jazz, Jamaican, Brazilian, Indian music too . I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you ask if I'm "heart oriented". I think the value of laughter and humor is almost inestimable.

There is a saying about the people that come from the region where my family comes from Italy (Abruzzo and Molise) - it's said we are "forte ma gentile" ("strong but kind/civilized") and I think that his old saying pretty well applies to me. I'm also very concerned about social justice: economic opportunity, workplace self-determination, rcial harmony, etc...

I hope that this a good second pass on characterizing myself with a view toward finding the right path to pursue, and I welcome any and all further questions and advice.

T.C.

Salutations, Tom,
This is an excellent second pass on characterizing yourself! It's a full reply, and people have and will continue to ratchet their answers in ways to suit your natural predilections as well as your questions as they unfold. It appears you have studied a lot, although your sources aren't stated. Because we don't know what you "know" already, at a minimum we all hope we don't add to your confusion! But also, please forgive if we start out too simple. You will have to diligently employ your own powers of discrimination to sift through the ideas which are presented to you. I recommend that you take a look at some of the other threads in this DIR. The advanced search feature is pretty robust and could prove useful. One thing for sure you'll learn by hanging out here is there are several different takes on advaita philosophy alone espoused in this DIR and all are worthy of your consideration if you really think you lean that way.

However, IMO, based on a few of the clues you dropped when describing yourself (charity, service, the Christ principle, a taste for arts and music, etc.) advaita alone might not suit your current mind- and heart-set. Eventually, I believe you'll realize the full truth of both. I fervently believe that a complete grasp of one will likewise give you a complete grasp of the other. It is only One Mountain we're all climbing, OneGod--the Self--to be realized. I do not believe that they conflict at all. Advaita is Nirguna Brahman (God without attributes); dvaita is Saguna Brahman, same God with attributes. (Tee hee, this will start a debate right now. ) So, yes! Laughter and humor is of inestimable value. Add yours to the fray, won't you?

Yoga means "reunion with God" and broadly stated, there are three approaches to accomplishing that reunion: the path of the intellectual (jnana yoga, i.e, acquiring knowledge leading to wisdom--which is not the same thing); the path of transforming emotion into devotion (bhakti yoga, the "heart-oriented" approach I referred to) and selfless service to God and His creation (karma yoga). A fully realized being, no matter which path of yoga he traverses to get there, will (in accordance with the One Mountain idea) be full of wisdom, devoted to God and serving ceasely.

Let's see what the others have to say, too. There is a great deal of respect shown for others' ideas in this DIR; even though we might banter about and state our views unequivocally, we all learn a little something for our journey. At least I do and I'm grateful for it in the extreme.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Tom, take 'Yoga' as meditation on a subject. Do not take it to be a particular path/sect in Hinduism. All Hindu paths require meditation. It is simply about deep, clear thinking when you have removed extraneous thoughts from your mind. It is a technique and a fine one at that, with the first step as breath control, 'Pranayama' (if the person does not have breath-related problems. There are people who have this). I am not in favor of counting, concentrating on lights, pendulums, etc., and consider them as distractions during meditation.

Regarding the belief part, it is not that Hindu philosophies say that the world is non-existent. It very much exists but its true reality is hidden behind an apparent reality. You have mentioned your preference for accepting the existence of a power in the universe. I suggest that you study the following at the moment (first in Wikipedia itself):

"Schools of Vedanta:
Varying interpretations of the Upanishads and the Brahma Sutra led to the development of different schools of Vedanta over time. These there are prominent
Advaita Vedanta, Gaudapada (~500 CE) and Adi Shankara (8th century)
Vishishtadvaita, Shri Ramanuja (1017–1137 CE)
Dvaita, Shri Madhvacharya (1199–1278 CE)
Bhedabheda, as early as the 7th century CE, or even the 4th century. Some scholars consider it apt to consider it as a "tradition" rather than a school of Vedanta.
Upadhika, founded by Bhaskara in the 9th Century
Svabhavikabhedabheda or Dvaitādvaita, founded by Nimbarka in the 13th century"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedanta#Schools_of_Vedanta
(I have left out last two. They do not seem to suit you at the moment)

 

[Terese]

Pranam Tom Ciocco ji. What is it about Vishishtadvaita Vedanta that interests you?

Hari Bol

 

[StarryNightshade]

Welcome to the forum @Tom Ciocco .

Straight and to the point, aside from taking some of the philosophical teachings of Buddha, there really isn't any "halfway point" between Buddhism and Hinduism. One could mix some of the teachings together, but that goes into syncreticism territory (nothing wrong with that, by the way).

As someone pointed out, there is Advaita Vedanta, but to call that a halfway point between Hinduism and Buddhism is potentially controversial.

My questions to you would be:

1.) What is it you're looking for?

2.) What is it about Buddhism and Hinduism that attracts you them?

Side note: I follow Vishishtadvaita Vedanta, if you have any questions.

 

[Madhuri]

Here is my dilemma: I feel connected and attracted to the metaphysics of Hinduism (especially Vishistavaita Vedanta and Yoga) but I find the trappings of all of the many deities, caste, etc. to be off-putting.

Hi Tom

Welcome to RF!

I can't really speak about the Buddhist side as my knowledge of it is too simple. So I'll stick with the Hinduism.

Firstly, could you go into more detail about what it is in Hinduism that you connect or believe in?
What is it about the deities that you find 'trapping'?

As far as caste is concerned, myself and most on this forum are not huge fans of caste. In fact I think that most of us would agree that it is more part of cultural Hinduism rather than ingrained in the scriptures/philosophy. Besides that, anyone not born into caste in an Indian family really doesn't pay any mind to caste or give it importance at all in our spirituality. In other words, you don't have to worry about caste to be a Hindu (and hopefully castism will fade in India over time as well).

I tend to think that giving ones self a label or committing to a religion isn't very important, especially if you aren't convinced that a particular path is the correct path for you. I encourage taking one's time to figure it out and only commit to a path when it's very clear that it's right for you.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Tom, there are many points where you can connect with Hinduism (listed in my previous post, # 16). So first get some information on which point suits you the best.
Myself, as you may have noticed, I am an advaitist (non-duality) Hindu and a strong atheist.