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Fine Tuning argument / The best argument for the existence of God

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
" Have you ever even contemplated the types of evidence we mostly all DO accept for various things and ideas?"

In Science, the evidences are given as per the Scientific Method, and in Religion the proofs are given as per the Religious Method, according to the nature of the problems. Right, please?
Science or Scientific Method has got to do nothing with Religion and or no-Religion. Right, please?

Regards
Did I mention "science", in any way, in the post you quoted? No. So why are you bringing science into the discussion? I'm talking about what constitutes acceptable, cogent and compelling evidence.

Now... what in the hell is "the Religious Method?" I am pretty sure you just made that garbage up, and that it has no actual basis in anything. My guess is you haven't even given a single thought as to what "the Religious Method" is. Which makes invoking it pretty darn useless. I can't even believe you didn't realize this yourself. You need to get your thinking process straightened out. From this post I would have to conclude that it is completely broken at the moment.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
What if that's not Gods nature? What if you have understood this God concept absolutely wrong?
But what is the point of a god who is all knowing and all powerful not willing to show himself to the people. Why is god hiding himself from everyone else. In fact the Abrahamic god only really spoke to people of the Jewish faith. Jesus was Jewish and spoke to Jewish people such as Moses. So a people who have grown up in places with no access to Jewish people have never heard from this god are doomed. It seems if he is a compassionate god he would talk to all of his creation to let them know about him. And why not present himself to the world today and direct people directly and end all of this strife as well as to correct those who misuse his name. Please help me understand this strange god.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
And what would prevent you from saying "" ohhhh but how do you know that it is God, abd no a fairy or the flying spaghetti monster?

What would prevent you from saying "ohhh its just a god of the gaps fallacy, just because we dont know where did this appearance come from, that doesn't mean that god did it.........?"


But god did not do it and neither did a fairy nor a flying spaghetti monster. I did not know you even believed in fairies or spaghetti monsters but there is no more evidence for them either. I have no idea what you mean by the gaps fallacy. What gaps are you talking about?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Did I mention "science", in any way, in the post you quoted? No. So why are you bringing science into the discussion? I'm talking about what constitutes acceptable, cogent and compelling evidence.

Now... what in the hell is "the Religious Method?" I am pretty sure you just made that garbage up, and that it has no actual basis in anything. My guess is you haven't even given a single thought as to what "the Religious Method" is. Which makes invoking it pretty darn useless. I can't even believe you didn't realize this yourself. You need to get your thinking process straightened out. From this post I would have to conclude that it is completely broken at the moment.
The Religious Method:

1. Make something up.

2. Hope really really hard that it is true.


3. Kill those who disagree with you.
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
The angel of knowledge is the fallen angel of light, it unravels from there. Not to be confused with satan, the devil.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Whats the point of a God who has a body to show and shows himself like you wish?
What's the point of a god that does not show himself at all? If god wants people to follow him that god should make an appearance. Cryptic messages to select people and races excluding others is clearly not a very caring or compassionate god.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
What's the point of a god that does not show himself at all? If god wants people to follow him that god should make an appearance. Cryptic messages to select people and races excluding others is clearly not a very caring or compassionate god.

Why should God "appear" and what would it solve? lets just follow your argument?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
In the bible. You have sources to show the Abrahamic god visited the people of New Guinea? Or the aboriginal people of Australia, or the First Americans of North America?

Ah. So your benchmark is only the bible.

How do you prove that God has never had any interaction with some people in New Guinea? Since you are making this proposition, can you provide some kind of evidence? If your contention is that the Bible doesnt say God visited New Guinea and you conclude that means he never did, that's an argument from silence. Its a logical fallacy.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The Religious Method:

1. Make something up.

2. Hope really really hard that it is true.


3. Kill those who disagree with you.

@Wild Fox

The "non-religious" method as combined with methodological naturalism.

#1: Solve the problems of objective reality and solipsism by axiomatically assume that we can in general trust our senses. I.e. that objective reality is as it appears to us. And then forget that this is without evidence and acts as if it is fact.
#2. Axiomatically assume that objective reality and thus the universe is natural/physical/material and then forget that this is without evidence and acts as if it is a fact.
#3. Demand evidence for the fact any belief that objective reality is different than the axiomatic assumption that objective reality is natural. In effect only the assumption that objective reality is natural in any discourse
#4. Act in general under the assumption that it can't make sense to do #2 differently and claim that it can only be that #2 is rational and objectively useful for all humans, though it is irrational and subjective. None of the assumptions can be done rationally and objective, because then they wouldn't be assumptions.
#5. Claim that these 2 assumptions can't be questioned and act in effect as they are dogma and articles of faith. They really, really can't be questioned, because it really doesn't subjectively make sense to question them, because reality must make sense. That reality must make sense, is the core dogmatic and religious belief, that can't be doubted. That would be to doubt that there is a limited to the ability of rationality and we can't do that.
#6. In effect claim an universal we for all humans and authority over words like reality, evidence, rationality, objective, facts, truth and so on.

So you 2. Another option is to treat the everyday world as a combination of objective/natural/physical and subjective/cultural/mental and that there is no single methodology that works on all of the world. Not religion, not science, not philosophy and that in effect we can't avoid this:
Cognitive Relativism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
"...
3. The definition of relativism
There is no general agreed upon definition of cognitive relativism. Here is how it has been described by a few major theorists:

  • “Reason is whatever the norms of the local culture believe it to be”. (Hilary Putnam, Realism and Reason: Philosophical Papers, Volume 3 (Cambridge, 1983), p. 235.)
  • “The choice between competing theories is arbitrary, since there is no such thing as objective truth.” (Karl Popper, The Open Society and its Enemies, Vol. II (London, 1963), p. 369f.)
  • “There is no unique truth, no unique objective reality” (Ernest Gellner, Relativism and the Social Sciences (Cambridge, 1985), p. 84.)
  • “There is no substantive overarching framework in which radically different and alternative schemes are commensurable” (Richard Bernstein, Beyond Objectivism and Relativism (Philadelphia, 1985), pp. 11-12.)
  • “There is nothing to be said about either truth or rationality apart from descriptions of the familiar procedures of justification which a given society—ours—uses in one area of enquiry” (Richard Rorty, Objectivity, Relativism and Truth: Philosophical Papers, Volume 1 (Cambridge, 1991), p. 23.)
Without doubt, this lack of consensus about exactly what relativism asserts is one reason for the unsatisfactory character of much of the debate about its coherence and plausibility. Another reason is that very few philosophers are willing to apply the label “relativist” to themselves. Even Richard Rorty, who is widely regarded as one of the most articulate defenders of relativism, prefers to describe himself as a “pragmatist”, an “ironist” and an “ethnocentrist”.

Nevertheless, a reasonable definition of relativism may be constructed: one that describes the fundamental outlook of thinkers like Rorty, Kuhn, or Foucault while raising the hackles of their critics in the right way.

Cognitive relativism consists of two claims:
(1) The truth-value of any statement is always relative to some particular standpoint;
(2) No standpoint is metaphysically privileged over all others.
..."

So in effect as religious I am "post-modern" and don't use evidence in defense of my religious beliefs. I just do in effect, how it works in practice for the everyday world we apparently are all a part of. I believe in God and ignore the "non-religious" religious believers in Naturalism, when they demand evidence.

In historical terms we in the Western culture aren't done with debating the limits of rationality and truth. That debate started over 2400 years ago and most people still treat rationality as the world must make positive sense and "add up".
So for limited cognitive relativism I just do this:
"Man is the measure of all things: of the things that are, that they are, of the things that are not, that they are not." Protagoras.

That is the ongoing battle: The limit of all those words like truth, proof, evidence, rationality, objectively and justified reasoning. Now it has in effect never been about religion or not. It is always about controlling the words, we use to make sense of the world and that is not limited to religion.

Regards
Mikkel
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Well I would say that the bolzman brain paradox represents a devastating objection to the multiverse explanation. (assuming that you are arguing that we are just a random member of this universe)

Even if we grant that there is a multiverse with potentially infinite universes, statistically speaking its more likely to have observers that live in a “not so FT universe” than observers in a FT universe like ours.


WHY?

Boltzman brains are very short lived and can only have one thought before they change state. It doesn't debunk a multiverse.

Sean Caroll has an 8 minute response to the Fine Tuning Argument where he starts out with a few points but then compares naturalism to theism in a number of ways that really dismantles the concept that theism is a solution to fine tuning argument or accurately explains anything else we observe about the universe. In all cases naturalism looks to be the best answer to explain what we see about the universe concerning, religions, physics, life, the origin of the universe and so on.

 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Are you joking? Have you ever even contemplated the types of evidence we mostly all DO accept for various things and ideas? Let's say someone calls themselves "an Electrician." What types of evidence would we expect them to produce in order to demonstrate that they have the skills that they say they do? Might they be able to wire a junction box for us, for example? Would that display that they have at least some of the skills they profess to? Why yes... yes it would. How about if we ask to see their membership in some sort of guild or tradesmans' outfit? Or a license to practice such endeavors under the pretenses of official business? Can you ask God for a demonstration of the things that make him classified as "God?" Nope. Can you take a look at the handiwork of God, knowing full well that he completed the work because He did so in front of your very eyes? As in - you actually bore witness to His work and can validate that He can, indeed, perform "Godly" duties? No. None of that. Not even close. The "evidence" you theists make claim demonstrates God is entirely inadequate, paltry and without actual substance. It's crap. Complete and utter crap. Come to me when you can produce God's credentials, or God Himself. Until then, best to keep those ideas to yourself. You do yourself no service by parading such garbage around as if you knew full-well what you were talking about.


SUre when it comes to electricians you hace nirmal and reasonable standards, but whwn it comes to God you arbitrarily chsnce to ridiculously high standards...... It seems to me that If someone knocks your doorclaiming to be God and performing some miracles in fron of your own eyes you can always say......... Ohhhh its just a God of the gaps argument....... Just vecause we don't know how he did the miracles it doesn't mean that God did it"....... "Or Djinn bla bla bla"


This is why i keep asking...... What observations, discoveries etc would you accept as evidence for God?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The Religious Method:

1. Make something up.

2. Hope really really hard that it is true.


3. Kill those who disagree with you.

The atheist method

1 avoid the burden proof at all cost

2 never answer questions directly clearly and unambiguously

3 apply unrealistically high standards with claims that support the existence of God

4 just claim "god of the gaps" when you cant answer to a specific line of evidence.

5 never accept nor deny a specific claim, keep your position ambiguous

6 never provide your specific points of disagreement for an argument
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The atheist method

1 avoid the burden proof at all cost

2 never answer questions directly clearly and unambiguously

3 apply unrealistically high standards with claims that support the existence of God

4 just claim "god of the gaps" when you cant answer to a specific line of evidence.

5 never accept nor deny a specific claim, keep your position ambiguous

6 never provide your specific points of disagreement for an argument
The list is still incomplete, I understand. Right, please?

Regards
 
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