Fire & Brimstone Deism

[oldbadger]

Knowledge, yes. But what about justice, love and beauty?

Beauty is all around, but it exists in the most deadly virus as well as in the flying swan. For most humans, however, it is subjective.

Love is subjective. Love is chill in hellfire, dry in the sea. (jallalah).

Justice is subjective. Will you execute the hawk for committing murder upon the dove?

Sorry, I seem to have interrupted your train of thought.

When you catch up let me know.

Don't look behind yourself for me............... and don't look ahead. This isn't a race, it's a just a way of life.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Beauty is all around, but it exists in the most deadly virus as well as in the flying swan. For most humans, however, it is subjective.

Love is subjective. Love is chill in hellfire, dry in the sea. (jallalah).

Justice is subjective. Will you execute the hawk for committing murder upon the dove?[/quoe]

Beauty is purely subjective, while love and justice are mixtures of both the subjective and objective--but they, along with objective knowledge, are all aspects of Truth. And BTW, a hawk, like all animals that we know of, is innocent because it lacks full self-awareness which removes any choice about killing the dove, therefore it is not murder. Neither can a bat murder a moth.

Don't look behind yourself for me............... and don't look ahead. This isn't a race, it's a just a way of life.

I agree. The pursuit of Truth is not a race, except perhaps that you're in a race with yourself. But the real question isn't about the speed of your pursuit, it's about whether it's on, off or set on frappé.
.

 

[Repox]

As far as I know, there is no deist church as such, nor is there a standard belief in a Hereafter, much less one resorting to the tactic fear via eternal hellfire which would certainly be offensive to God and a Heavenly Host. What I mean by the title is that while deists believe in the use of reason rather than high pressure proselytizing--usually accompanied by the collection of contributions, there is nonetheless a passion for religious/philosophical objective belief. The core belief is that, if there is a God, It is a free-will providing, hands off laissez-faire God. Any beliefs beyond that such as pandeism, panendeism, however reasonable, are still individual, irrelevant speculation.

You may ask, why the passion? The answer is that any society will be stronger if it's citizens guide their hearts with their minds instead of letting the emotions run rampant which leads to blind faith, blindly seeking unreasoned self/group gratification which always leads to a moral/legal double standard--THE root of all evil and corruption. Some will say that deism is no different than atheism, to which I would agree except for one aspect: deism offers hope for a Hereafter for those who live a moral, virtuous life, or oblivion for those who don't; while atheism would mean oblivion for all. If there is no Hereafter, then for us, God would be totally irrelevant.

And don't let the fact that some of us are having a pretty good life, lead us to believe that there are many who, through no fault of their own, don't. Others also let this good life lead them to the conclusion that eternity would eventually be boring. To them I say, an infinite number of souls (+God?) can come up with an infinite number of paths for (eternal?) fulfillment; but if not, I think we can assume there's always the oblivion option for those who desire it.

I agree, God has assumed a nonintervention position for the world. I propose the reason is God is not pleased with human species. God

Thanks for the link! I'll look into it.

You see, I believe there will be life after death, just not immediately after death, as taught in many religions: that at the moment a person dies, he goes somewhere else. No, I do not believe this.

But, please, keep an open mind, when reading the rest of this post!

Jesus said, the dead are in their "memorial tombs", when he will resurrect them, at a future time. -- John 5:28-29; John 6:40. And the resurrection being in the future, is further indicated by Paul, @ Acts of the Apostles 24:15.

But even most of Christendom doesn't teach that!! Most professed Bible supporters think that, when a person dies, they immediately go to bliss in heaven, or torment in hell. These teachers completely ignore Scriptures that directly deal with the subject, such as Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 146:3-4, Jesus' words regarding Lazarus at John 11:11-13, et.al.

Then, what could all these accounts of NDE's be about? It's about deceiving people, getting people to believe something that's not the truth! Just like with the people enslaved in Christendom! It is not for nothing the Bible tells us, that Satan is misleading "the entire inhabited Earth"! -Revelation 12:9.

What was the first lie? It was told by the Devil (John 8:44; "the original Serpent", Revelation 12:9), when he told Eve, "You positively will not die." He's simply trying to get many to believe his lie, that people don't really die, they just go to another place, and live there. He has pretty much succeeded....most think that way.

Another thing to consider. If our loved ones, when they died, actually did go somewhere else to live, wouldn't a loving God want us to know, and talk to them, to ease our mind? Of course!! But He tells us to avoid "consulting with the dead"(Deuteronomy 18:10-12)..... the dead are dead (for the time being, during which time, God is staying out of mankind's 'rulership trials'), and He is aware of whose power is really behind this deception.

Take care.

I agree, God has assumed a policy of nonintervention. I believe the primary reason for this policy is because, contrary to religious beliefs, God doesn't have a high regard for humankind.

Several years ago, I had a dream about shoveling garbage in a large pit. Suddenly, as I shoveled, I saw dinosaur bones underground throughout the earth. God's voice said, "Humans have desecrated my holy grave." Evidently, God wanted nature to evolve unmolested from the fall of paradise. I believe this dream is important because it concerns God's perspective about humans.

Humans are collateral damage from the fall of paradise 65 million years ago during the dinosaur era. In paradise, God and His angels were enjoying all of the creatures. The whole earth was paradise. It was aglow with God's holy light. After the fall of paradise, God remained in heaven with His angels. Evidently, it is common practice for angels to report to God about events on earth. I had a dream about angels making such a report to God; they told God about a new species beginning to dominate earth. God was not happy and decided to intervene.

Accept for symbolic communication abilities, humans are not much different from other species. However, because humans had become the dominant species on earth, God wanted to influence human affairs. God's intention was to limit harm to earth by teaching humans moral laws and proper conduct. Subsequently, God chose Abraham and his descendants to carry out His holy commandments. God hoped other nations would follow their example and become obedient servants, thus establishing God's divine authority on earth. Subsequently, God's plan didn't succeed. I had a dream about what happened. It was during OT times. A voice said, "they didn't obey my commandments, not one single commandment." That speaks volumes about what happened. God requires obedience. Without obedience, there is no relationship with God.

 

[Deidre]

When I explored Deism a couple of years ago, it struck me as the most flexible of most belief systems. The core point of Deism is that God is not a personal god, really...but, it seems that of the deists I know, they build upon deism as they see fit. I like that.

 

[siti]

God's intention was to limit harm to earth by teaching humans moral laws and proper conduct.

Ah! So God was "limiting harm to earth" when he caused a global flood then. And when he commanded the Hebrews "you shall not leave alive anything that breathes...you shall utterly destroy them" as they occupied the "promised land" and later when he commanded Saul regarding the Amalekites to "utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey" he was teaching them "moral laws and proper conduct". (Genesis 6:17; Deuteronomy 7:1-2; 1 Samuel 15:3)

 

[Repox]

Ah! So God was "limiting harm to earth" when he caused a global flood then. And when he commanded the Hebrews "you shall not leave alive anything that breathes...you shall utterly destroy them" as they occupied the "promised land" and later when he commanded Saul regarding the Amalekites to "utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey" he was teaching them "moral laws and proper conduct". (Genesis 6:17; Deuteronomy 7:1-2; 1 Samuel 15:3)

I don't see how the global flood applies to my statement. We don't even know if it happened. Based on what I know from my dreams, a lot of Genesis is not true. Paradise was not in the Garden of Eden, it was 65 million years ago during the dinosaur era. In short, I said God had preferred that nature remain unmolested from the fall of paradise. According to my dream about digging garbage, which you probable didn't read, God preferred dinosaurs and other creatures in paradise to humans.

Obviously, God's plan for his chosen people didn't work out. I've had a few dreams about the OT, one is about obeying God' Commandments, the other is about OT scripture. In the dream about the OT, a voice said, "it happened, but not that way." I have only had a few dreams, so I am not an expert.

What I have discovered is there are a lot of people who have strong cases against God. I think that is a serious problem for humans. It is a slippery slope from which there is no return. I take the position that God is perfect, I don't question his plans or anything He does. Perhaps, that is one reason why we get along. Over the course of several years of revelations, I have put the major pieces together beginning with Satan's rebellion. Unfortunately, It is not a happy story for humankind.

 

[siti]

Er...OK...you said that "God chose Abraham and his descendants to carry out his holy commandments"...so I (wrongly, it seems) assumed that you would include the flood (being the most drastic of all the "moral" stories handed down by "Abraham's descendants" in the OT) as part of the process of "teaching humans moral laws and proper conduct"...my apologies.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I agree, God has assumed a nonintervention position for the world. I propose the reason is God is not pleased with human species.

That's collectivist thinking. If there is any divine purpose, it can only be that we're here to be tested individually. If God damns whole populations, that means, for example, that Oskar Schindler would be damned with the rest of Nazi Germany. The purpose of God's non-intervention must certainly be the maintenance of our individual free will, the ability to act without God looking our shoulders. Free Will, the sole purpose for which the natural, rational universe was created. An omnipotent God could do anything else instantly instead of billions of years.

Several years ago, I had a dream about shoveling garbage in a large pit. Suddenly, as I shoveled, I saw dinosaur bones underground throughout the earth. God's voice said, "Humans have desecrated my holy grave." Evidently, God wanted nature to evolve unmolested from the fall of paradise. I believe this dream is important because it concerns God's perspective about humans.

All dreams, I repeat ALL dreams, are us talking to ourselves.

Humans are collateral damage from the fall of paradise 65 million years ago during the dinosaur era.

So God is a pox on the universe, according to the Bible of Rachael Carson.

Except for symbolic communication abilities, humans are not much different from other species.

Except for our singular full self-awareness which bestows on us our moral free will.

When I explored Deism a couple of years ago, it struck me as the most flexible of most belief systems. The core point of Deism is that God is not a personal god, really...but, it seems that of the deists I know, they build upon deism as they see fit. I like that.

The pursuit of Truth requires that we accept the Truth as it is, not what we want it to be or think it should be..

What I have discovered is there are a lot of people who have strong cases against God. I think that is a serious problem for humans. It is a slippery slope from which there is no return. I take the position that God is perfect, I don't question his plans or anything He does. Perhaps, that is one reason why we get along. Over the course of several years of revelations, I have put the major pieces together beginning with Satan's rebellion. Unfortunately, It is not a happy story for humankind.

Your 100% reliance on hearsay and emotive "reasoning" is making the deist argument.

 

[Deidre]

The pursuit of Truth requires that we accept the Truth as it is, not what we want it to be or think it should be..
.

Objectively speaking though, could we all ever agree on what defines "God?" Who is wrong and who is right, you know?

 

[Repox]

That's collectivist thinking. If there is any divine purpose, it can only be that we're here to be tested individually. If God damns whole populations, that means, for example, that Oskar Schindler would be damned with the rest of Nazi Germany. The purpose of God's non-intervention must certainly be the maintenance of our individual free will, the ability to act without God looking our shoulders. Free Will, the sole purpose for which the natural, rational universe was created. An omnipotent God could do anything else instantly instead of billions of years.



All dreams, I repeat ALL dreams, are us talking to ourselves.


So God is a pox on the universe, according to the Bible of Rachael Carson.



Except for our singular full self-awareness which bestows on us our moral free will.



The pursuit of Truth requires that we accept the Truth as it is, not what we want it to be or think it should be..



Your 100% reliance on hearsay and emotive "reasoning" is making the deist argument.

If you condemn my dreams, you must condemn Jewish prophets for their dreams. I find truth through my own intellect, not with what others say. I also rely on revelations from God. I should know better than to post them on the internet. There'll always be those who attack someone because they do it differently. As for God's policy of non-intervention, our predicament derives from God's plan for the universe. It was created as a prison for Satan. For whatever reason, God created paradise on earth. We're collateral damage from the fall of paradise. If Satan had not rebelled in heaven, there would be no universe, and we wouldn't exist. It is a sorrowful story, but it does not have to end poorly. Based on what I know, God is extremely concerned about obedience. Basically, There may be no salvation because humans don't obey God's commandments. It is a long story, but it goes back to heaven. In heaven, there is God and surrounding angels. It is all about two holy Gods in a sphere. Angels don't debate or argue with God, and they don't compete with God to be holier, they are entirely obedient to God's will. It is difficult to imagine self-confident independent humans in heaven. How many would give God lectures on what He should or should not do?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Objectively speaking though, could we all ever agree on what defines "God?" Who is wrong and who is right, you know?

Basic morality is simple, it's just four simple rights--to life, liberty, property and self-defense, all else is individual virtue. But all the different religions come along and much things up by creating hundreds or thousands of subjective virtues and call violating them a sin too, often worse that actual sin. So Truth takes the blame from all the shamans and their acolytes of the false gods they created to facilitate the increase of their own power.

People want good order and honoring those four basic rights provides it for all but anarchists and tyrants. And BTW, the root of ALL evil isn't money, power, sex or fame, (those can all be handled honorably), rather it's a moral/legal double standard. Those rights apply equally to all.

If you condemn my dreams, you must condemn Jewish prophets for their dreams.

All revealed religions rely completely on hearsay, and almost all of that is ancient hearsay from the mists of history. Many people today still have a lack of ability to discriminate. Two or three thousand years ago it was infinitely worse. You could be lying to me for any number of reasons with no way for me to corroborate anything you say. You could even be fooling yourself.

I find truth through my own intellect, not with what others say. I also rely on revelations from God.

At which point you loose all credibility having chosen to put your complete blind faith in coincidence, hearsay, and possibly a malfunction of your nervous system.

I should know better than to post them on the internet. There'll always be those who attack someone because they do it differently.

This isn't an attack. I'm not trying to stop you from believing what you want. You came here to defend what you believe, but you have nothing to offer me or others but you own blind faith. The only two positions on God which stand up to reason in this natural universe is deism and atheism. The only difference between them is hope. And I know what you're thinking, your religion offers hope. But no one can die for my lack of repentance. No amount of the blood of animals, or the son of God, can same anyone from their self-inflicted damnation.

As for God's policy of non-intervention, our predicament derives from God's plan for the universe. It was created as a prison for Satan. For whatever reason, God created paradise on earth. We're collateral damage from the fall of paradise. If Satan had not rebelled in heaven, there would be no universe, and we wouldn't exist. It is a sorrowful story, but it does not have to end poorly. Based on what I know, God is extremely concerned about obedience. Basically, There may be no salvation because humans don't obey God's commandments. It is a long story, but it goes back to heaven. In heaven, there is God and surrounding angels. It is all about two holy Gods in a sphere. Angels don't debate or argue with God, and they don't compete with God to be holier, they are entirely obedient to God's will. It is difficult to imagine self-confident independent humans in heaven. How many would give God lectures on what He should or should not do?

If God created it, it was a testing ground for sentients like us--though symbolically, the Devil is a good icon for the temptation to do evil that exists in "every single one of us" (to quote INXS, though I doubt the knew the profundity of which they sang).

 

[Repox]

Basic morality is simple, it's just four simple rights--to life, liberty, property and self-defense, all else is individual virtue. But all the different religions come along and much things up by creating hundreds or thousands of subjective virtues and call violating them a sin too, often worse that actual sin. So Truth takes the blame from all the shamans and their acolytes of the false gods they created to facilitate the increase of their own power.

People want good order and honoring those four basic rights provides it for all but anarchists and tyrants. And BTW, the root of ALL evil isn't money, power, sex or fame, (those can all be handled honorably), rather it's a moral/legal double standard. Those rights apply equally to all.

All revealed religions rely completely on hearsay, and almost all of that is ancient hearsay from the mists of history. Many people today still have a lack of ability to discriminate. Two or three thousand years ago it was infinitely worse. You could be lying to me for any number of reasons with no way for me to corroborate anything you say. You could even be fooling yourself.

At which point you loose all credibility having chosen to put your complete blind faith in coincidence, hearsay, and possibly a malfunction of your nervous system.

This isn't an attack. I'm not trying to stop you from believing what you want. You came here to defend what you believe, but you have nothing to offer me or others but you own blind faith. The only two positions on God which stand up to reason in this natural universe is deism and atheism. The only difference between them is hope. And I know what you're thinking, your religion offers hope. But no one can die for my lack of repentance. No amount of the blood of animals, or the son of God, can same anyone from their self-inflicted damnation.


If God created it, it was a testing ground for sentients like us--though symbolically, the Devil is a good icon for the temptation to do evil that exists in "every single one of us" (to quote INXS, though I doubt the knew the profundity of which they sang).

Morality isn't that simple. There is God's morality, it is outlined in the Old Testament. Assuming there is God's morality and secular morality or the rule of law, which prevails? I propose God's morality precedes human morality, it is the framework for human morality. If not, we are nothing more than smart animals.

I don't accept hypocrisy as a moral equivalent of God's Commandments. It depends on how humans act in the context of God's moral order.

No one can prove anything about God, there is no empirical evidence. If you reject what I know, let's not waste time with a lecture. My favorite view about humans is, except for symbolic communication abilities, they are not much different than other species. Satan is real, the consequences of his mischief is everywhere.

I don't have blind faith. I have had personal experiences with God.

I have offered my opinion, that is all others have to offer. You sound like a secular preacher. I reject what you know in favor of my knowledge about God. I have no self-inflicted damnation. I know things other people don't know about God and heaven because of revelations. Much of what I know conflicts with traditional religion, so I expect opposition. I am not trying to convert, I just want to discuss. I never said I had hope in a religion. You assume a lot without knowing.

I don't believe morality, or religion, sprung up from a mysterious mist. Satan has been around since the beginning of time, he introduced unscrupulous rules and encourage the unleashing of destructive animas. Then, God intervened in human affairs (Bible). We now in the final stage of Satan's struggle to dominate human societies.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Morality isn't that simple. There is God's morality, it is outlined in the Old Testament. Assuming there is God's morality and secular morality or the rule of law, which prevails? I propose God's morality precedes human morality, it is the framework for human morality. If not, we are nothing more than smart animals.

All that morality was made up by priests and other religious leaders to increase the fear of the people for God (read God's self-appointed representatives). There are 500+ rules that got added on to the 10 Commandments (some of which shouldn't apply either), like being executed for gathering sticks on the sabbath or a sinner's descendants being damned for four generations, not to mention micromanaging every aspect of our lives that don't violate the rights of others. In any case, the only foundation for any of it is pure hearsay. It's always "Thus sayeth the Lord....", not God delivering It's message to the people in person, in mass, in a way that can't be faked, altered, misinterpreted, mistranslated etc. etc.

No one can prove anything about God, there is no empirical evidence. If you reject what I know, let's not waste time with a lecture.

So, apparently, it's listen to my lecture but don't lecture me back.

I don't have blind faith. I have had personal experiences with God.

Which "God" gave you no way to verify, much communicate to anyone else.

I have offered my opinion, that is all others have to offer.

Then you're saying the Truth and facts available to us.

You sound like a secular preacher.

If you mean by "secular", not a member of an organized religion, you're spot on. The Truth speaks for itself. Out of the mouths of babes or the Devil himself, the Truth is the Truth.

 

[Repox]

All that morality was made up by priests and other religious leaders to increase the fear of the people for God (read God's self-appointed representatives). There are 500+ rules that got added on to the 10 Commandments (some of which shouldn't apply either), like being executed for gathering sticks on the sabbath or a sinner's descendants being damned for four generations, not to mention micromanaging every aspect of our lives that don't violate the rights of others. In any case, the only foundation for any of it is pure hearsay. It's always "Thus sayeth the Lord....", not God delivering It's message to the people in person, in mass, in a way that can't be faked, altered, misinterpreted, mistranslated etc. etc.



So, apparently, it's listen to my lecture but don't lecture me back.



Which "God" gave you no way to verify, much communicate to anyone else.



Then you're saying the Truth and facts available to us.



If you mean by "secular", not a member of an organized religion, you're spot on. The Truth speaks for itself. Out of the mouths of babes or the Devil himself, the Truth is the Truth.

I don't believe God is responsible for errors in the Bible. Assuming the OT Lord was revealing His word to his chosen people, there is no reason to believe they would get it right. The Bible is the only real record we have of God's communication with humans. You can reject it if you want, I prefer to accept it as a record of God's intervention in human affairs. If I want, I'll lecture you back. You can't dissuade me from my beliefs. It is interesting to have a civil discussion.

Evidently, you have a strong faith in disbelieving everything about God. I prefer to not mess up my mind with unsolvable puzzles such as, how did everything in the universe come from nothing? How did beautiful mountains, valleys, flowers, and colorful rocks pop into existence by accident? There are many unanswered questions about our existence which science cannot explain.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I don't believe God is responsible for errors in the Bible. Assuming the OT Lord was revealing His word to his chosen people, there is no reason to believe they would get it right. The Bible is the only real record we have of God's communication with humans. You can reject it if you want, I prefer to accept it as a record of God's intervention in human affairs. If I want, I'll lecture you back. You can't dissuade me from my beliefs. It is interesting to have a civil discussion.

If there is a word of God this must be it.

“It is only in the CREATION that all our ideas and conceptions of a word of God can unite. The Creation speaketh an universal language.... It is an ever-existing original, which every man can read. It cannot be forged; it cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of man whether it shall be published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this Word of God reveals to man all that is necessary for man to know of God.”

—Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason Pt.1

Evidently, you have a strong faith in disbelieving everything about God.

I'm an agnostic who leans toward there being a God, and ALL the evidence shows that if God does exist, It doesn't interact in this universe so as to protect our free will--THE one and only reason God would have created the universe. An omnipotent God could do anything else instantly.

I prefer to not mess up my mind with unsolvable puzzles such as, how did everything in the universe come from nothing? How did beautiful mountains, valleys, flowers, and colorful rocks pop into existence by accident? There are many unanswered questions about our existence which science cannot explain.

IOW you prefer to see but not use the power to think which you must certainly believe God bestowed on you.

 

[Repox]

If there is a word of God this must be it.

“It is only in the CREATION that all our ideas and conceptions of a word of God can unite. The Creation speaketh an universal language.... It is an ever-existing original, which every man can read. It cannot be forged; it cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of man whether it shall be published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this Word of God reveals to man all that is necessary for man to know of God.”

—Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason Pt.1


I'm an agnostic who leans toward there being a God, and ALL the evidence shows that if God does exist, It doesn't interact in this universe so as to protect our free will--THE one and only reason God would have created the universe. An omnipotent God could do anything else instantly.



IOW you prefer to see but not use the power to think which you must certainly believe God bestowed on you.

I have explored the origin question with science. My conclusion is it is a waste of time because science is limited, it cannot explain the origin of the universe or other unsolved mysteries. It is clear, there is no other explanation, God created the universe. I am in a different situation because I have had revelations. They have informed me that God created the universe as a prison for Satan, paradise occurred during the dinosaur era, Satan disrupted paradise, humans evolved after the fall of paradise, God doesn't have a high regard for humans, God intervened in human affairs (Bible), and it didn't work out for God's chosen people. A city on earth (Revelation) is God's offer to humans, but they must obey his commandments for salvation. God has assumed a non-interventionist position. God is in heaven with twelve angels. His angels keep Him informed about what is happending on earth. Religious activity on earth has happened without God, it has been that way since God came into the world as Jesus. As Jesus, God was rejected by men. I believe it was God's final test for humankind. Every since God's departure from our world, humans have created religions, theologies, and made up "miraculous" events to support their beliefs.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I have explored the origin question with science. My conclusion is it is a waste of time because science is limited, it cannot explain the origin of the universe or other unsolved mysteries.

That's correct, there's no evidence for or against God as the cause of the universe. The absence of evidence is so perfect as to make it appear intentional. How could an unintelligent cause not leave any trace evidence? I used to consider this to actually be evidence for God, but God is a genius, if It exists, because you can't use a lack of evidence as evidence.

Religious activity on earth has happened without God

Exactly, It was ever and always thus.

 

[Repox]

That's correct, there's no evidence for or against God as the cause of the universe. The absence of evidence is so perfect as to make it appear intentional. How could an unintelligent cause not leave any trace evidence? I used to consider this to actually be evidence for God, but God is a genius, if It exists, because you can't use a lack of evidence as evidence.



Exactly, It was ever and always thus.

That's correct, there's no evidence for or against God as the cause of the universe. The absence of evidence is so perfect as to make it appear intentional. How could an unintelligent cause not leave any trace evidence? I used to consider this to actually be evidence for God, but God is a genius, if It exists, because you can't use a lack of evidence as evidence.



Exactly, It was ever and always thus.

If you assume God and his supernatural world are in another dimension of reality, it makes sense. God's world is not dependent on physical laws, matter, or energy. All of those factors were created by God for the universe (Satan's prison). According to the second law of thermodynamics, entropy in our universe continues to change matter and energy along self-destructive paths. In other words, there is a lack of consistency in the universe, and it is irreversibly. Whereas, for God and his supernatural world (heaven), there is consistency and no entropy. A speck of God's holy light is eternal. There is, of course, no scientific means for testing a speck of God's holy substance. Therefore, applying scientific tools, there is no evidence for the origin of our universe. Unless it is revealed to us, we have no evidence. Even if we saw a speck of God's holy light, we couldn't make a record of it. We could only say we saw it, but would anyone believe it?

 

[siti]

The absence of evidence is so perfect as to make it appear intentional. How could an unintelligent cause not leave any trace evidence? I used to consider this to actually be evidence for God, but God is a genius, if It exists, because you can't use a lack of evidence as evidence.

This has to qualify for a medal in the world "silliest line of reasoning" championships. There is, analogously, no evidence for or against the existence of a giant silver teapot orbiting the planet Neptune - are we take it that this indicates that it is, in fact, a supremely intelligent teapot that has painstakingly and quite deliberately erased all evidence of its existence? It is disappointing and, frankly, embarrassing to see this kind of stuff in the Deism section.

 

[siti]

According to the second law of thermodynamics, entropy in our universe continues to change matter and energy along self-destructive paths. In other words, there is a lack of consistency in the universe, and it is irreversibly.

What the Dickens are you talking about? "Lack of consistency", "irreversibly", "self-destructive paths"??

That's not what the second law says at all. The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system always increases over time, or remains constant in ideal cases where the system is in a steady state or undergoing a reversible process.

That means that 'systems' like galaxies, stars and people have a finite life span - this is because they are non-isolated, unstable, high energy, non-equilibrium systems that are destined by nature to follow a path of increasing entropy (lower energy, more stable) until they reach steady states or equilibrium conditions (aka, for living systems, death). For the universe (as far as we know) this means that eventually the universe will have approached thermodynamic equilibrium and, although all the energy of the universe will still be there (none of it will have "self-destructed"), it will no longer have 'free energy' to sustain non-equilibrium systems like stars and life. But since we've got 10^100 years before that happens I don't think we need to worry unduly on this score just yet.

for God and his supernatural world (heaven), there is consistency and no entropy. A speck of God's holy light is eternal. There is, of course, no scientific means for testing a speck of God's holy substance. Therefore, applying scientific tools, there is no evidence for the origin of our universe. Unless it is revealed to us, we have no evidence. Even if we saw a speck of God's holy light, we couldn't make a record of it. We could only say we saw it, but would anyone believe it?

Probably not