Five points against Islam

[vskipper]

I have discovered five major points about Islam that though impressively simplistic are hard to ignore:

1. Chapter 33 verse 50 of the Qur'an - Quran Explorer

Going by the claim that the god of Islam is the same one of Judaic & Christian teachings there surely has to be another time where an exception was made for a singular individual that did not apply to the masses. If the rule of evry created thing in the universe is that it changes then Allah (Walam Yakul-La-Hu-Kufuwan ‘Ahad) must be unchanging.

If Allah is unchanging then surely there is some othr example of him making an exception to the law given at the time for someone. If he changed due to circumstances he is like creation as science tells us that everything changes

2. Surah al balad swears by the begotten by surah al inklas says that Allah begets not

3. Muhammad was a merchant who traveled frequently. One of those places he traveled was Damascus.Damascus at that time was well known for its Jewish & Christian communities

4. Muhammad did most things in sets of 3 (today such a person would be called OCD). Also his 'visions' included violent tremors of the body (possible epilepsy?)

5. The idea of 7 heavens was a long held Catholic ideology (arguably the largest sect in Syria at the time)

Bonus:
6. There was no temple in Jerusalem at the time of Muhammad.

 

[Amechania]

How is any of this "against Islam"?

 

[vskipper]

It proves the invalidity of Islam. If you need further breakdown of each one & don't see it s obvious I can post a link to a thread for each one

 

[vskipper]

Try reading the verse in context:

The people of the Scripture ask of thee that thou shouldst cause an (actual) Book to descend upon them from heaven. They asked a greater thing of Moses aforetime, for they said: Show us Allah plainly. The storm of lightning seized them for their wickedness. Then (even) after that) they chose the calf (for worship) after clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) had come unto them. And We forgave them that! And We bestowed on Moses evident authority. (153) And We caused the Mount to tower above them at (the taking of) their covenant: and We bade them: Enter the gate, prostrate! and We bade them: Transgress not the Sabbath! and We took from them a firm covenant. (154) Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few - (155) And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny; (156) And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. (157)

Surah 4:153-157

In other words it was speaking about the Jews. Like in a story it would say they said

Now as for the rest yes they reject the Bible. They view it as altered. But, you will never disprove Islam throught right-wing rhetoric. They view the Bible as unauthoratative & thus everything you said has no weight.

Also I would remind you of the following:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Galations 5:22-25

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 5:43-48

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.

Matthew 5:9

Your approach comes across as intolerant & hateful. I am more interested in reaching Muslims for the truth. Or are you like servant that buried the money?

 

[Matemkar]

1- The fact that, the law changes according to the time and conditions of the people, does not mean God is changing. In Quran, many verses read as "The traditions of God does not change", "You can't find a change in the Word of God", etc. But, law is something different than the traditions and words of God.

Imagine, when your son becomes naughty for a long time and nothing changes his attitude, you can become strict, and you apply things such as time off, or ban him from, let's say, playing video games. And when he becomes a good boy again, you let him play the video games. And when he grows up, he won't need to play the video games any more. But it does not mean a change in the essence of the video game, or a change in yourself or a change in your teaching/raising tradition. It is a natural result of the change in the attitudes, knowledge and awareness of your son.

So, we believe, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) had different laws according to the time and conditions of people. And not only that, it was possible that they ruled differently in their own times. You can study the phases of banning alcohol in Islam for instance. So, all the changes, in law, does not mean there are changes in the teacher. It is the changes in the student.

2- It is clear you did not study the swearing in Quran. God always swears upon whom/what is dear to Him. So, God swears upon His creation there and in many other verses. God does not swear on Himself there and in many other verses.

3. He travelled there once and a Priest saw him, that is all. But, him interacting with people of the book is not a point against Islam. He was sent for them also.

4. It is clear you studied the Holy Prophet from the "sunni" perspective only. According to shia Islam, the Prophet did not do such things. And according to shia Islam, in practices such as ablution and other things, you do the things only once, more if it is not cleansed but three times denote to doubts in shia Islam and it invalidates the ablution. In any case, it seems you limit your study to one school of thought and sadly it causes you to judge falsely.

Please refer to shiasources e.g. www.al-islam.org for your studies also.

5. The Abrahamic faiths having commonalities is nothing abnormal. They originate from the same divine revelation.

6. Source?

 

[vskipper]

6. Siege of Jerusalem (AD 70) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It is well known history that the Romans destroyed the 2nd temple in 70 AD. What year was Muhammad born?
5. And yet the Greek Orthodox dont believe in 7 heavens and was around as long as the Catholics. Hinduism predates Islam, & Christianity at the least and predates the Talmud. Yet Hinduism taught about 7 heavens. Is Hinduism from the same source?
4. That answers the idea of OCD but says nothing of the trembling & seizures that could easily be perceived as epileptic seizures (or strokes)
3. It is not a matter of as sent for but that he could have learned Biblical information while being illiterate as much of the Bible at that time was taught orally as many did not have access to a Bible
2. I understand God swearing by himself. That is not even the point. Surah al inklas says that he neither begets nor is he begotten. But in surah 90 ayat 4 it says begotten.
1. Why this incredibly simple point is so hard for people to comprehend I do not understand. I will use your example to prove my point. If I was a father and whenever house rules were made everyone was held accountable to it but then I turn around and say to my third child that while tghe other two must wait till we stop the car to eat, he can go ahead. It would be a character alteration.

Another example might be Mother Teresa. She was well known for being fair & kind with all. But if some child had come along asking for food and Mother Teresa had snapped at her it would be an alteration in her character.

This is the same. If God has always held the prophets accountable to the same law as those to whom.the law is brought, then changing this pattern of behavior denotes an alteration based on circumstance making God like man and thus nullifying surah al inkhlas

 

[Shad]

Morale and cultural relativism. If X laws are only for a certain time and certain place I can dismiss Islam as unique to a time and place. Since we are neither in the same place nor time I can claim it no longer applies to the modern world. If a change in the law or tradition is told to a follower by God this is God changing the law not the followers changing the law. God is changing "his" views of what is a new law and what is an outdated law.

 

[Matemkar]

1- Your examples are not related after all. The behaviour/tradition of God does not change, the behaviour of people change, thus they face different laws accordingly.

The "strict" laws of Moses were appropriate for a rebellious nation. Just like the laws of Jesus were appropriate for an oppressed nation. Islam says, it is the middle, appropriate for all. But, in any case, it is a fact that Jesus ruled and acted differently than Moses, same goes for Muhammad. But, they all acted according to the time and conditions of people, does not mean they don't originate from the same divine command.

2- You must mean Quran 90:3 not 4. And why do you think this verse speaks about God? Because you say so? The previous verses are also swearing. And they all speak about the created and not God. And neither this verse speaks about God.

3- There was oral tradition but the Prophet was not in contact with Christians, not until Islam became widespread in Arabia. And even if you think he learnt some from Christians, this is not something against Islam.

4- I did not adress the issue because of the quote marks and because such a hate disgusts me. But since you ask again, you need to know that nothing related to the revelations, are related to the ilnesses you speak of. The time of occurance in ilnesses are not alike to the times of necessity for revelation. After seizures, you don't come up with revelations solving problems, rather what you speak becomes nonsense. And anyone studying the Holy Quran without bias can agree it is the revealed word of God to the Holy Prophet Muhammad.

5- That you might believe a certain denomination in Christianity represents the whole religion is your matter. I am not into the discussions of the sects of Christianity. But, the point was and is that, there is nothing wrong in the subscribers of Abrahamic religions having some common concepts. And as for Hinduism, unlike Judaism and Christianity, Islam believes Adam, as the first human being on earth, was a Prophet also. And logically, every community needs a guide and holding people accountable for something they are not informed about would be unjust. And beyond is God from such injustice. Thus, the first person on earth had to be a Prophet. And we should not be surprised if his children still have some certain common beliefs. So, non-Abrahamic faiths having common beliefs with Abrahamic faiths is not something abnormal either. Not just speaking of Adam, Muslims believe in the existence of 124.000 prophets who were sent to all nations.

6- FYI, there is something we call rebuilding.

 

[outhouse]

They originate from the same divine revelation.

It is called fanaticism when you make claims that are not backed up in reality.


You have zero evidence for such.


Scientifically it never happened that way.

it is a fact that Jesus ruled and acted differently than Moses

Moses factually has no historicity as ever existing.

 

[outhouse]

Adam, as the first human being on earth, was a Prophet also

Which is also factually not correct.


No person from the middle east or surrounding areas was the first person to exist.

Israelites or muhammad had no clue about human origins.


We all factually evolved. Homo Sapiens have been on the planet 200,000 years

 

[Matemkar]

I think an Atheistic approach in this case just derails the thread. Maybe you start different threads on these issues and discuss with theists who are interested. Thank you for your understanding.

 

[outhouse]

I think an Atheistic approach in this case just derails the thread. .

Im sorry but that is avoiding reality.


Why does an unbiased opinion, backed with evidence, seem as a threat to you?

 

[Draupadi]

If God changed the laws according to the time then new revelations should come to ban slavery and remove the custom of giving dowry to women. It doesn't matter how many Muslims keep or don't want slaves. The fact is that it is allowed. And as the days are going by women are becoming self-sufficient.

 

[Ingledsva]

I have discovered five major points about Islam that though impressively simplistic are hard to ignore:

1. Chapter 33 verse 50 of the Qur'an - Quran Explorer

Going by the claim that the god of Islam is the same one of Judaic & Christian teachings there surely has to be another time where an exception was made for a singular individual that did not apply to the masses. If the rule of evry created thing in the universe is that it changes then Allah (Walam Yakul-La-Hu-Kufuwan ‘Ahad) must be unchanging.

If Allah is unchanging then surely there is some othr example of him making an exception to the law given at the time for someone. If he changed due to circumstances he is like creation as science tells us that everything changes

2. Surah al balad swears by the begotten by surah al inklas says that Allah begets not

3. Muhammad was a merchant who traveled frequently. One of those places he traveled was Damascus.Damascus at that time was well known for its Jewish & Christian communities

4. Muhammad did most things in sets of 3 (today such a person would be called OCD). Also his 'visions' included violent tremors of the body (possible epilepsy?)

5. The idea of 7 heavens was a long held Catholic ideology (arguably the largest sect in Syria at the time)

Bonus:
6. There was no temple in Jerusalem at the time of Muhammad.

You realize, don't you, that we have come up with plenty of reasons showing that the Abrahamic God (that you all claim) is made up?


He has all of the hateful crap of MEN, hate, vengeance, murderer, murder of innocent babies for the supposed crimes of adults, gave patriarchal laws - allowing MEN - to own women, sex slaves, concubines, rape captured women, etc.


In other words this "God" is just made up by MEN - so they can do what they want to do, - own - control - rape!


*

 

[Matemkar]

Outhouse, brother, why do you think I consider your "unbiased opinion, backed with evidence" a threat? I just said it derails the thread, which is the 5 points of the OP against Islam in a "Christian" outlook. You create threads and discuss the issues with those who are interested.

Draupadi, sister, slavery is not related to the topic either. And if you want to know about the Islamic outlook, you can check Slavery | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org and the sermon of Hassanain Rajabali on it or discuss the issue in another thread.

Ingledsva, sister, it is not related either.

Maybe, I don't know about the rules regarding "the debates" subforums, as this is the 2nd or 3rd time I am joining such threads. But, I don't know, it just is absurd to me to derail threads. I think rather the brethren should create other threads in order to discuss the issues they want.

Thank you for your understanding. ma salam

 

[Ingledsva]

Outhouse, brother, why do you think I consider your "unbiased opinion, backed with evidence" a threat? I just said it derails the thread, which is the 5 points of the OP against Islam in a "Christian" outlook. You create threads and discuss the issues with those who are interested.

Draupadi, sister, slavery is not related to the topic either. And if you want to know about the Islamic outlook, you can check Slavery | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org and the sermon of Hassanain Rajabali on it or discuss the issue in another thread.

Ingledsva, sister, it is not related either.

Maybe, I don't know about the rules regarding "the debates" subforums, as this is the 2nd or 3rd time I am joining such threads. But, I don't know, it just is absurd to me to derail threads. I think rather the brethren should create other threads in order to discuss the issues they want.

Thank you for your understanding. ma salam

Yes it is related. It flowed from the original post to prove Islam false.


My reply was that all of the religions of Abraham are false - as evidenced by "God" being an imperfect image of the males that wrote the texts.



*

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Mohammed travelled over one to Damascus
And then he married Khadija
But hey cousin Ibn Nawfal
The Rev. Christian
Who knew Muhammad and his book also translates
Waraqa Ibn Nawfal
Attended the marriage of Khadija
After Matt Ibn Nawfal after revelation
That Mohamed trained by Ibn Nawfal
For more argoa to book a priest and Prophet

 

[Bunyip]

I think an Atheistic approach in this case just derails the thread. Maybe you start different threads on these issues and discuss with theists who are interested. Thank you for your understanding.

For what it's worth, I am an atheist and I thought that your response was brilliant.
Don't put us all in the same boat please my friend.

 

[YmirGF]

Outhouse, brother, why do you think I consider your "unbiased opinion, backed with evidence" a threat? I just said it derails the thread, which is the 5 points of the OP against Islam in a "Christian" outlook. You create threads and discuss the issues with those who are interested.

Draupadi, sister, slavery is not related to the topic either. And if you want to know about the Islamic outlook, you can check Slavery | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org and the sermon of Hassanain Rajabali on it or discuss the issue in another thread.

Ingledsva, sister, it is not related either.

Maybe, I don't know about the rules regarding "the debates" subforums, as this is the 2nd or 3rd time I am joining such threads. But, I don't know, it just is absurd to me to derail threads. I think rather the brethren should create other threads in order to discuss the issues they want.

Thank you for your understanding. ma salam

As you know, I am no friend of Islam, but I do agree with what you are saying. The OP is disingenuous at best and not really worthy of a serious reply.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

1. the Shiite friend uses the pious in replies
2. our friend that refuse the Abrahamic religion
Let me explain a Ibrahim
Ibrahim, a man from the land of Iraq from ur of the Chaldeans
Started off with the idea of searching for the creator
This is the idea that the universe has a creator
Ibrahim then did nothing
Not written revelation
It didn't come from any book
Ibrahim was a breed
The breed is recognized by the offspring
It is the descendants of Bani Israel, Jacob and two نشاءت Judaism
Christian is the conclusion to this thought
Because Jesus belonged to Daoud through Virgin Mary