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Five Reasons to Reject Belief in Gods

footprints

Well-Known Member
I think of it more as an emergent property of the universe... much like intelligence is an emergent property of the brain. (I can see that being argued as a priori as well.)

wa:do

To argue a position of spiritual belief as an a priori position is to deny knowledge itself.

The ancient Hopi didn't one day sit down and think hey, let's paint a Hopi Trail. In order to associate, the human brain has to have something to relate to. The world we see today is a far different world to the world the ancient Hopi seen.

Where God and the bible is concerned, the story is very clear and precise on this point, Adam and Eve had direct evidence, for that, which it is alleged, they witnessed. The belief didn't come first, then the evidence, the evidence existed and then the belief followed.

Any person who would argue a priori position as it pertains to spiritual belief, argues from a point of ignorance.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
To argue a position of spiritual belief as an a priori position is to deny knowledge itself.
So you don't believe that you can know something based on logic alone?

The ancient Hopi didn't one day sit down and think hey, let's paint a Hopi Trail. In order to associate, the human brain has to have something to relate to. The world we see today is a far different world to the world the ancient Hopi seen.
No it grew organically like all faiths do...

Where God and the bible is concerned, the story is very clear and precise on this point, Adam and Eve had direct evidence, for that, which it is alleged, they witnessed. The belief didn't come first, then the evidence, the evidence existed and then the belief followed.
yet no one writing the Bible had direct experience of Adam and Eve. Back to square one.
Any person who would argue a priori position as it pertains to spiritual belief, argues from a point of ignorance.
Well then I guess I have to become an atheist (as will every other person of faith).... I have no personal direct knowledge of God/Creator... it is knowledge based on logical inference. No physical evidence means no a posteriori knowledge of God.
I had no idea you disapproved of logic so much.

wa:do
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
So you don't believe that you can know something based on logic alone?

It is impossible to have logic without knowledge attached to it. Knowledge in itself is perception based, we may all have the same knowledge or at least have the availability to this knowledge, but each piece of knowledge will be accredited with more weight of truth attached to it according to a persons own personal beliefs. Some knowledge due to a persons own personal beliefs will even be discarded as rubbish and nonsense.

Mary, Jane and Samantha all live in the same street and in consecutive house numbers. If Samantha lives in house number 7, Mary in house number 3, who lives in house number 5? From this we can logically and rationally define that Jane lives in house number 5.

Now the same scenario, if there are three ladies Mary, Jane and Samantha who all live in the same street and in consecutive house numbers. If Mary lives in house number 27 where do Jane and Samatha live, there isn't enough knowledge to logically define in which houses Jane and Samantha live. Albeit, some people may take a guess.

In many cases logic is only logical, to those who hold value, in that logic.


No it grew organically like all faiths do...

LOL that is a perception and a belief.

yet no one writing the Bible had direct experience of Adam and Eve. Back to square one.

People writing the bible didn't need to have had direct experience of Adam and Eve, it is a direct extension of word of mouth wherein lies the experience. Not all people have to conduct a scientific experiment to believe its existence and it doesn't make the experiment any less valid. The knowledge isn't an a priori position.

I have had no direct experience with Julius Caesar, yet I do not deny his existance. Adam and Eve in all logical premises, as it fits the pattern of knowledge we know to date, in all probability was passed word of mouth before it eventually ended up as written text. Word of Mouth is just as valid in ancient base cultures as written text is to us today, albeit word of mouth versions from ancient base cultures didn't have the variations of modern, written texts where we can just about find any text to prove whatever perception we choose to hold.

Well then I guess I have to become an atheist (as will every other person of faith).... I have no personal direct knowledge of God/Creator... it is knowledge based on logical inference. No physical evidence means no a posteriori knowledge of God.
I had no idea you disapproved of logic so much.

wa:do

Looks like you will have to forgo a lot of history. Caesar, Alexander the Great, Napoleon et al, if you are going to adopt that premise. By your analogy they could all be great big conspiracy theories. Logic is only as good as the knowledge that goes with it, and the weight of truth attached to the knowledge included.

As for direct evidence we have been through this before. Science has given evidence to the bible and says, if nothing else, through genetic engineering, man can quite possibly be made from elements of the earth (even under the evolutionary process), that through cloning a woman could be made from a rib bone. That given enough time and greater knowledge of the Universe, we could ourselves (meaning mankind) create a universe from scratch, just as the alledged deity is said to have done.

The paths of enlightenment left in many religious text and word of mouth teachings from many ancient, base root cultures around the world are very real, and very valid. These are not some fictional, make believe, hocus pocus, but very real, very valid, tangible pieces of evidence, which many have tested and concluded as truth. The majority who have conducted these tests have all reached the same positioning of reasoning, they are of course repeatable and many will prove them correct in the future.

Logic is only as good as the knowledge included and the knowledge left out, and the weight of truth applied to each piece of knowledge left in the equation. In other words, human perception.
 
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Bird123

Well-Known Member
If God exists, then He can be found. If you care for the real truth then you must search for God until you have proof either way. You do not have proof that God does not exist. Are you searching??? Sometimes people who search find what they search for.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
If God exists, then He can be found. If you care for the real truth then you must search for God until you have proof either way. You do not have proof that God does not exist. Are you searching??? Sometimes people who search find what they search for.

Research (searching) is the only way to find the truth.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Looks like you will have to forgo a lot of history. Caesar, Alexander the Great, Napoleon et al, if you are going to adopt that premise. By your analogy they could all be great big conspiracy theories. Logic is only as good as the knowledge that goes with it, and the weight of truth attached to the knowledge included.
Caesar and his gang are a posteriori knowledge..... Lots of documentation involved and no appeals to faith.

As for direct evidence we have been through this before. Science has given evidence to the bible and says, if nothing else, through genetic engineering, man can quite possibly be made from elements of the earth (even under the evolutionary process),
that is not direct evidence for the biblical creation.

that through cloning a woman could be made from a rib bone.
Cloning would have produced a Steve... not an Eve. With no way of bringing the clone to maturity... and who uses a rib bone? That is wasteful, needlessly intrusive and a dumb place to get material.

That given enough time and greater knowledge of the Universe, we could ourselves (meaning mankind) create a universe from scratch, just as the alledged deity is said to have done.
No we can't. We can not make matter from nothing... we can not break the laws of physics.

The paths of enlightenment left in many religious text and word of mouth teachings from many ancient, base root cultures around the world are very real, and very valid.
I'm not arguing that. Hell, have you noticed my religious tag?

These are not some fictional, make believe, hocus pocus, but very real, very valid, tangible pieces of evidence, which many have tested and concluded as truth.
Again, no argument.... but it starts with a priori knowledge.

The majority who have conducted these tests have all reached the same positioning of reasoning, they are of course repeatable and many will prove them correct in the future.

Logic is only as good as the knowledge included and the knowledge left out, and the weight of truth applied to each piece of knowledge left in the equation. In other words, human perception.
So why do you hate a vital source of knowing for humans? Not everything is/can be a posteriori.... a priori is not a logical fallacy, its a natural source of knowledge.

You are arguing phantoms and shadows. (based on your perceptions and beliefs.)

wa:do
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
Caesar and his gang are a posteriori knowledge..... Lots of documentation involved and no appeals to faith.

Nobody can prove the existence of Caesar, we accept Caesar existed based on texts, artifacts and legends. Circumstantial evidence which points in Caesars direction.

that is not direct evidence for the biblical creation.

It is just as much evidence as biology is for evolution. Where once it was considered a way out, far fetched thing, all of a sudden due to science, it isn't as far fetched as it first appeared. Nothing supernatural about it at all.

Cloning would have produced a Steve... not an Eve. With no way of bringing the clone to maturity... and who uses a rib bone? That is wasteful, needlessly intrusive and a dumb place to get material.

If an alledged person had the knowledge to create the human genome from scratch using only base elements of earth, creating a women from a males rib bone would be like a walk in the park.

Whether or not it is dumb, one would have to take that up with the alledged deity, or a scientist with equal knowledge, when of course, we gain that amount of knowledge.

No we can't. We can not make matter from nothing... we can not break the laws of physics.

The base premise of any theory pertaining to the origin of the universe, starts off with this premise. Either that or we can have an effect without a cause. Two scientific improbabilities which defy the laws of physics as we currently know them.

All this says is, that mankind has to gain more knowledge in order to understand it. There is more to physics than we currently know.

I'm not arguing that. Hell, have you noticed my religious tag?

I understand your position, and have since the first time we spoke.

Again, no argument.... but it starts with a priori knowledge.

Such is your belief.

It started off with a deity, then Adam and Eve and the whole Hebrew connection. The Faith (as in religious beliefs) came after, based on the evidence (word of mouth, then later translated to text) left by generations before them. The same way which things like fire, were passed along. The same way knowledge of Caesar was passed along.

Is there evidence to support this? Well unfortunately for sceptics there is.

God per se, is alleged to have created the universe. Does the universe exist?

God per se, is alledged to have created the Sun, the Earth and the Moon. Do the Sun, the Earth and the Moon exist?

God per se, is alleged to have created Adam and Eve and from them the ancient Hebrew generated. Do the Hebrew still exist, and is there substantial evidence pertaining to the ancient Hebrew?

God per se, is alledged to have created Adam and Eve, is this possible? Do we have any evidence to support the creation of life forms, including humans?

Does science discredit the Bible and the Genesis prognosis or does science give methods which an alledged deity could have possibly used to create the wonders which it is alledged God did?

Pertaining to paths of enlightenment, these are based so as to eliminate priori knowledge, be these paths of enlightenment left by the ancient Hebrew, the ancient Asian, the ancient Indian, the ancient American Indian, the Australian aboriginal, et al.

So why do you hate a vital source of knowing for humans? Not everything is/can be a posteriori.... a priori is not a logical fallacy, its a natural source of knowledge.

Hate is a perceptional word, in this instance more relative to your belief of my thinking, than it is to mine.

To say that religion/spirituality is an a priori position, is in itself an a priori position. Born of deductive reasoning and not supported by, a posteriori demonstration. Which proves your natural source of knowledge statement. The imagination and the faith we put into it, are indeed a powerful source of knowledge especially as it starts to intermix with perceptual knowledge gained from personal life experience.

It is impossible for the human brain to associate, if it cannot relate. It cannot relate, if it has nothing to associate to. A virtual catch 22, especially for newborn children. All the knowledge of children, and a great percentage of knowledge held by adults, is held as an a priori position. I certainly do not deny it.

Religions/spirituality are nothing more than an extention of base root, ancient cultures. You do not get evidence from religions, you get it from the base root cultures or the source of the knowledge base.

You are arguing phantoms and shadows. (based on your perceptions and beliefs.)

Such is your perception, which forces your a priori position.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
Adam and Eve seem to have been disproven by genetic studies.

Hmmm, and they actually knew who and what to study, fascinating.

Of course if they did, by some accounts of this story, genetic study has just blown the complete theory of evolution.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Hmmm, and they actually knew who and what to study, fascinating.

Of course if they did, by some accounts of this story, genetic study has just blown the complete theory of evolution.

I take it you have not heard of the genetic studies done into when our species last had a common ancestor and ancestress?
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
I take it you have not heard of the genetic studies done into when our species last had a common ancestor and ancestress?

Common ancestor is perspective based, as "Ardi," suggests, and how far down the family tree do you want to go, only as far as homo habilis, perphaps to lizards, perhaps to protozoans or even to bacteria and atoms? As for the speculation as it pertains to the last common ancestor of humans and chimps, I have seen this range from 1 million years to 5+ million years, as well as the alternate speculation as it pertains to 18 something DNA. In other words we just don't know and are still working on specualtion.

Basically speaking where DNA is concerned, we are in kindergarten. We have a little knowledge with a whole lot of knowledge still to learn and gain. With history as a guide, we will follow this path, we will make mistakes, we will head off in many different tangents, scientists will oppose each other, knowledge will change and change again, but in the end, we will get there.

Albeit following the "out of africa theory," they would have proven this theory wrong and all suggested evidence attached to it. At this point in time in science, we have absolutely no idea, of how many "genetic Eves," there were. We have no knowledge whether the intitial homo sapiens could still communicate fluently with homo habilis where transfer of knowledge could be passed along, and we have no knowledge of whether these two species lived concurrently with each other, or consecutively of each other. Probability suggests transfer of knowledge is highly likely down either scenario, inter-mating during this phase of time only if they lived concurrently. Genetic differences being just as diverse as chromosomes today down family tree lines based on multiple "Eve's".

Speculation is a wonderful thing, but it must always remain in perspective and not be included with any factual evidence.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Cloning would have produced a Steve... not an Eve. With no way of bringing the clone to maturity... and who uses a rib bone? That is wasteful, needlessly intrusive and a dumb place to get material.
There's one obvious reason for using a rib bone: to give an ancient people a just-so story that fit their (incorrect) understanding of differences between male and female anatomy.

I take it you have not heard of the genetic studies done into when our species last had a common ancestor and ancestress?
To be fair, last common ancestor doesn't necessarily mean first ancestor.

Also, if we're going to employ Biblical metaphor consistently, then the individual they call "Y chromosomal Adam" would be more accurately called "Y chromosomal Noah". Even in a Biblical literalist view, the last common male ancestor lived quite a bit later than the last common female ancestor.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
There's one obvious reason for using a rib bone: to give an ancient people a just-so story that fit their (incorrect) understanding of differences between male and female anatomy.

Or to give some modern day people an a priori argument.

Your faith in science and the people of science to gain any further knowledge into the human genome, belittles the dedicated people in science. Fortunately, people in science will press on regardless, with or without your support or faith in them.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Common ancestor is perspective based, as "Ardi," suggests, and how far down the family tree do you want to go, only as far as homo habilis, perphaps to lizards, perhaps to protozoans or even to bacteria and atoms? As for the speculation as it pertains to the last common ancestor of humans and chimps, I have seen this range from 1 million years to 5+ million years, as well as the alternate speculation as it pertains to 18 something DNA. In other words we just don't know and are still working on specualtion.

Basically speaking where DNA is concerned, we are in kindergarten. We have a little knowledge with a whole lot of knowledge still to learn and gain. With history as a guide, we will follow this path, we will make mistakes, we will head off in many different tangents, scientists will oppose each other, knowledge will change and change again, but in the end, we will get there.

Albeit following the "out of africa theory," they would have proven this theory wrong and all suggested evidence attached to it. At this point in time in science, we have absolutely no idea, of how many "genetic Eves," there were. We have no knowledge whether the intitial homo sapiens could still communicate fluently with homo habilis where transfer of knowledge could be passed along, and we have no knowledge of whether these two species lived concurrently with each other, or consecutively of each other. Probability suggests transfer of knowledge is highly likely down either scenario, inter-mating during this phase of time only if they lived concurrently. Genetic differences being just as diverse as chromosomes today down family tree lines based on multiple "Eve's".

Speculation is a wonderful thing, but it must always remain in perspective and not be included with any factual evidence.

You're barking up a whole 'nother tree. I'm not talking about that at all.

Genetic studies have suggested that all humans alive today shared a common male and a common female ancester. The two ancesters lived tens of thousands of years apart. But basically, that's as close as the genetics gets to supporting an adam and eve notion of human origins.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Genetic studies have suggested that all humans alive today shared a common male and a common female ancester. The two ancesters lived tens of thousands of years apart. But basically, that's as close as the genetics gets to supporting an adam and eve notion of human origins.
But like I tried to point out, the (very small) Biblical literalist in me remembers the flood story and notes that the Ark contained Noah, Noah's wife, Noah's sons, and their wives. Therefore, the last common male ancestor for everyone living today would be the source of all the "Y" chromosomes on the Ark: Noah (assuming no genetic bottlenecks since then).

However, Noah's sons wives all came from different families, so the last common female ancestor for everyone living could've been earlier than that... potentially as far back as Eve, which would be ~2000 years before the flood, if you go by the chronology in the Bible.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
But like I tried to point out, the (very small) Biblical literalist in me remembers the flood story and notes that the Ark contained Noah, Noah's wife, Noah's sons, and their wives. Therefore, the last common male ancestor for everyone living today would be the source of all the "Y" chromosomes on the Ark: Noah (assuming no genetic bottlenecks since then).

However, Noah's sons wives all came from different families, so the last common female ancestor for everyone living could've been earlier than that... potentially as far back as Eve, which would be ~2000 years before the flood, if you go by the chronology in the Bible.

Yes, but the chronology of the genetic studies is in the tens of thousands of years, which does not comport with the bible too well.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yes, but the chronology of the genetic studies is in the tens of thousands of years, which does not comport with the bible too well.
I suppose not, though when the measurement is tens of thousands of years, an estimate of two thousand years separation is many orders of magnitude more accurate than an estimate of one day's separation. :D

But yeah: when you've got to fit all of human history into 6000-odd years, there's no room for a ten-thousand-year anything.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
when you've got to fit all of human history into 6000-odd years, there's no room for a ten-thousand-year anything.

:eek: Imagine. Your North American creationist types ancestors were running around being beguiled by snakes while ours were building these
LeganannyDolmen.jpg
 
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