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Flavius Josephus About Jesus?

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I think there is a "possibility" he existed. For me there hasn't been anything presented that convinces me though.....:(
Or Hillel, or ...

It's the most adolescent of skepticisms. As I've noted previously, for those not driven by dogma, Josephus and Acts are more than adequate to demand the provisional acceptance of historicity.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
No, my disagreement concerns the reliability of the attribution.

Same thing (or at least I meant it to be). If the gospels are for the most part reliable, then much of what is present in them is more or less accurate. Using what I consider to be the most likely model for oral transmission, I don't buy that sayings were freely contributed to Jesus. And I don't think there really is a consensus on this issue, although it is rare to find scholars as skeptic as bultmann. Certainly you are not alone in thinking that much of what is put on Jesus' lips he never said.

And that is what I meant by reliability of the texts: how reliably they record what happened.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
"if one accepts a view like Bultmann where sayings and teachings were freely attributed to Jesus and we can know next to nothing about the historical man"
I.E. the ultimate copout.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
OK - you win ... :clap

Going on the assumption that you are being sarcastic, I wasn't saying they ARE for the most part reliable. I was simply trying to clarify what I meant when I said our disagreement was with the reliability of the text, which you disagreed with saying it had to do with attribution. I was attempting to make it clear that that is pretty much what I meant. I think the gospels are more reliable than you do, and in one way most of all: I believe they preserve Jesus' sayings and teachings fairly well. You, as I understand, follow Bultmann and those like him by believing that many (or most?) of the sayings of Jesus were simply attributed to him.

So I don't understand the sarcastic response, when all I was trying to do is make clear at least one area where we do not agree.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Going on the assumption that you are being sarcastic, I wasn't saying they ARE for the most part reliable. I was simply trying to clarify what I meant when I said our disagreement was with the reliability of the text, which you disagreed with saying it had to do with attribution. I was attempting to make it clear that that is pretty much what I meant. I think the gospels are more reliable than you do, and in one way most of all: I believe they preserve Jesus' sayings and teachings fairly well. You, as I understand, follow Bultmann and those like him by believing that many (or most?) of the sayings of Jesus were simply attributed to him.

So I don't understand the sarcastic response, when all I was trying to do is make clear at least one area where we do not agree.

How can we know Yeshua said it at all?

What technique is used to determine that?

EDIT: No sarcasm....just general questions.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
"if one accepts a view like Bultmann where sayings and teachings were freely attributed to Jesus and we can know next to nothing about the historical man"
I.E. the ultimate copout.

How this that a cop out? And by the way, you should know who Bultmann is. Your book The Jesus Mysteries cites him in support of their view on a mythic Jesus, by quoting him out of context.

Bultmann used a model of orality based on folklore transmission for reconstructing how the early christian community transmitted the tradition. Using this model, he and his followers believed (or believe, for those who are still around) that the early christians communities would not just freely and carelessly pass along sayings, teachings, narratives, etc, concerning Jesus, they would frequently add to the oral tradition and attribute these additions to Jesus. Bultmann believed that the earliest christians had little to no real interest in a "historical" Jesus, or Jesus as he lived on earth, but rather were concerned with the risen Christ, and therefore putting words on Jesus' lips and making up stories of his deeds in no way diminished what was important. Building on these assumptions, Bultmann et al believed that by the time the tradition was written down, most of it was added as it had been passed along, and very little could be traced back to the historical Jesus with certainty. However, as Professor Werner Kelber puts it (sorry in advance angellous :)), "Today it is no exaggeration to claim that a whole spectrum of major assumptions underlying Bultmann's Synoptic Tradition must be considered suspect..." (p. 8, from Kelber, Werner H. The Oral and the Written Gospel: The Hermeneutics of Speaking and Writing in the Synoptic Tradition, Mark, Paul, and Q. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1997).

Since Bultmann, there has been a wealth of studies on oral culture and orality in many fields. For example, Perry and Lord, beginning early in the 20th century, began research into modern oral cultures to understand Homer. Anthropologists studying largely illiterate populations also wrote a great deal on the subject.

Within NT studies, not too long after Bultmann Birger Gerhardsson published a tremendously important study which examined orality within rabbinic circles, and looked at how this model might relate to the NT. Unfortunately, his publication couldn't have come at a worse time, as it was exactly at this point that scholars were becoming VERY wary of reading later rabbinic practices back into the first century. Thanks largely to a scathing review by Morton Smith and his student Neusner, Gerhardsson's work went ignored for some time, as he was accused of reading rabbinic orality into first century Christianity. However, it was eventually realized that Gerhardsson did no such thing. Rather, he simply examined rabbinic orality as a model that could be closer to orality within the Jesus sect than Bultmann's folklore traditions (interestingly enough, in a republished version of Gerhardsson's book, Neusner, who was instrumental in the publication, not only publicly apologized but thoroughly bashed his former teacher Smith). Since Gerhardsson, several scholars have utilized research from homeric studies, rabbinic studies, anthropological research, and more in an attempt to formulate a supportable model for oral transmission within the Jesus community.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
How can we know Yeshua said it at all?

First, "knowing" when it comes to history, particularly ancient history, is a word which ought always to be used with caution. As I have said before, with all of history (even as recent as events which happened yesterday), methodology is employed to reconstruct what most likely occured based on all the available evidence.

What technique is used to determine that?

Actually, I would say that the methods employed are undergoing a revolution of sorts, although there continue to be many who stick to the older ways.

The classical (and by that I mean used throughout most of the 20th century) ways of determing what parts of the gospels can be either plausibly traced back to Jesus (and how plausibly, from almost certain to really iffy) are generally as follows:

1. Multiple attestation- This method is perhaps the most widely employed in all historical studies, from Jesus research to WWII research. Basically, as far as the historical Jesus is concerned, if there is a saying or event that occurs in multiple independent sources, it is more likely to be traceable to Jesus. It is important to note that "independent sources" does not just mean two different texts. Almost all experts agree that Matthew and Luke used Mark and a reconstructed source designated Q. So if a saying is found in Mark, Matthew, and Luke, that still only consitutes a single attestation. However, if (like Jesus' teaching on divorce) it is found in Paul, the synoptics, and John, it is much more likely to be from Jesus.

2. Criterion of embarrassment- if an event or saying occurs in one or more of our sources that doesn't make Jesus or christianity look good, it is more likely to be historical. For example, in Mark, Jesus' family go out to grab him because they think he has lost his mind. This isn't something christians are likely to invent, because it makes Jesus look bad. Hence, more likely to be historical

3. Criterion of discontinuity- if and event or saying has few or no parallels in texts prior to Jesus, and is not found in christian writings outside of the NT, it is more likely to be historical, because it can't really have come from the early christians scanning scriptures in an attempt to make Jesus fit into the messiah role, nor is it likely that it was invented by christians to fulfill the needs of christian communities, because we have no record of it being important or used in christian texts. For example, Jesus often uses the phrase "son of man." Yet this phrase is hardly to be found in texts other than the gospel. Therefore, it appears to be a phrase that the historical Jesus actually used

4. Criterion of coherence- if, using other methods (such as the above) certain characteristics of the historical Jesus emerge, other characteristics which cohere with these are more likely to be historical.

And so forth. The above is a sample of some common classical techniques for sorting what is likely to be historical from what is less likely. It should be noted that methods used to investigate the historical Jesus are not unique to that topic. The historical Jesus is a matter of history like any other, and the discipline of history has developed methods of investigation since Herodotus.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
In addition to the above I think it is important (perhaps because this is my area of study, and I have a bias for it) to add what I see as an emerging way to judge the historicity of our sources. It has been recognized for over a century that the gospels are based (directly or indirectly) on oral traditions. In other words, in the early christian communities, independent sayings, teachings, parables, and stories of jesus were passed around. Thanks mainly to Bultmann, even while his form-critical approach has either largely died out or been very much modified, the effects of his model of orality linger on. A great many scholars simply take for granted that "oral tradition" means freely, uncontrolled, and informal passing along of information about Jesus.

However, an increasing number of scholars have not only challenged Bultmann's model of orality, but the consequences it had.

So with respect to your question, a "newer" way to assess what is more likely to have come from Jesus is to attempt to construct as realistically as possible the model of oral transmission in the Jesus sect (i.e. how information about Jesus was passed along by early christians). This has been done first by looking at other oral cultures, both in general and in particular cultures similar to the one in which Jesus lived, and examining the model of orality in those cultures. Once these models are examined, the christian texts (both in and out of the NT) are examined to see if a similar model can be supported for the Jesus sect.

For example, Kenneth Bailey is not only a scholar, but has also worked extensively as a missionary in remote parts of the middle east, where the culture has remained remarkably unchanged for many years, and is almost completely illiterate. He noticed that different types of information were passed along differently. For example, rumors spread quickly and without any sort of control or reliability (a phenomenon which cross-cultural anthropological research has discovered to be fairly universal). Important information, however, was retained in a particular way. For example, when Bailey would give a sermon, upon completion one of the elders in the community would stand up and say something to the effect of "did you just hear what he said? he said..." and the elder would procede to "package" Bailey's serman in a form which could be easily retained orally. These communities also had their own methods for retaining "Historical" stories about the community. During communal events, a person might ask a question or somehow trigger the recitation of a past event. Not just anyone, however, could tell the story. Certain people were considered "authorities" and were the only ones "allowed" to repeat the story. Additionally, upon recitation, mistakes were corrected by the community. Bailey called this process of transmission "informal and controlled" and theorized that it might be similar to the process of transmission in the Jesus sect.


That is just one, and rather unidimensional, model. I would say most research into oral models of the Jesus sect look at all sorts of models, before seeing if and to what extent they might apply to the Jesus sect.

In any event, by establishing a model of transmission for the Jesus sect, it becomes easier to decide what is a priori more likely to be reliably represented in the gospels. For example, my studies (built so far by looking at anthropological research, rabbinic circles, graeco-roman teacher/disciple communities, and transmission of Islamic ahadith) lead me to believe the following:

1. Jesus' teachings (what he spoke) are by their very nature more likely to be accurately recorded then events which occured during his ministry. Cross-culturally, teachers in oral cultures use repitition and mnemonic devices so students can memorize at least the essentials of their teachings. Jesus (as with all such teachers) almost certainly said the same thing many, many times, probably always or almost always in slightly different ways. Events, on the other hand, only happen once, and are therefore by nature less likely to be accurately recalled.
2. Jesus uses a number of different genres, and each one was probably remembered slightly differently. For example, I short aphorism might be transmitted verbatim. In a longer parable, however, certain details would not be very important. What is important is getting the essentials (sort of like a long joke, where details can change, but if they change too much the punchline doesn't work).
3. If investigations into oral models of teacher/disciple communities and sects (from the Greeks to the early muslims) are any indication, such communities almost NEVER allow anyone to contribute anything to the tradition. Rather, particular people are seen as authoritative, and it is there job to instruct others. In the Jesus sect, there are numerous indications in our texts that such authorities DID exist, and began with the eyewitnesses, particularly those of the twelve who remained with the sect after Jesus death. Luke begins his gospel with the importance of traditions handed down from eyewitnesses. Paul uses particular verbs to refer to "receiving" and "passing on" oral tradition. In addition, Paul spent 15 days "inquiring into" Peter, the head of the Jerusalem community. Papias tells us that he wasn't satisfied with hearing about Jesus from anyone, but first and foremost from eyewitnesses, and next from the disciples of eyewitnesses. John tells us that his source is an unnamed "beloved disciple" indicating again the importance of an eyewitness. Given comparisons with known models of orality and internal evidence, we can plausibly deduce that the Jesus tradition was handled with some care.

4. Number (3) above does not mean that the gospels are highly accurate and perfectly reliable by any stretch of the imagination. For one thing, as has been recognized even before Bultmann, the "story" itself in the gospels (the narrative as a whole) is artificial. The oral tradition was not like a oral gospel, in which a single story was repeated and memorized. Rather, various sayings and short narratives and so forth existed independently of each other. Mark was the first we know of to take many of these pieces and weave them into a narrative. This means that the chronology and context of much of what is said and done in Mark is superficially imposed (which is, by the way, the opposite of myth, where the general story is constant, and the details always change). Additionally, when I contend that the gospels (or at least the synoptics) generally record Jesus' teachings reliably, this does not mean verbatim (although it is possible in some instances). Rather, and again like a joke, the essence of a teaching was important, and details could be changed.
5. Another issue against reliability is authorial redaction. By this I mean the tendency for those "handling" the tradition to alter it to suit their own purposes. Although I think it is likely that this happened to some degree during the oral stage, I don't think it happened to a great extent. As I said, the best model for orality posits a fairly controlled and even at times formal transmission of the tradition. Also, when you are trying to teach someone "Jesus said such and such" there isn't as much need to tailor the saying. This is why, for example, despite the fact that we KNOW circumcision was a very big issue in the early church, NO saying concerning cirmcumcision are placed on Jesus' lips. Beginning with Mark, however, the disperate pieces of tradition were weaved into a narrative (very badly, in Mark's case; his style and greek are really pretty bad). Once this happened, what was a bunch of sayings and stories has to be fitted into one story. Two things happen as a result: one, as already mentioned, is fitting sayings into contexts by having Jesus say them to a particular person in a particular place. The other is the great ability of the author to present Jesus' teachings to make his/her own point. The gospel authors were telling a complete and integrated version of what was really lots of pieces of tradition. In doing so they could put it together to put a particular "spin" on it. They could place a particular saying in a context which would add meaning. They could more easily alter a saying to fit into a context, theme, or theology. They could leave things out that didn't fit their purposes well enough. Or the could add caveats. It is often difficult, then, to sort out where the evangalist ends and Jesus begins, even allowing that the teachings are largely Jesus' own.

6. Very early on in the Jesus sect, and to an increasing degree, the desire to no more about Jesu grew. The "eyewitnesses" after all, were only witnesses to the mission at the end of Jesus' life. And even in the mission there were blank spots (for example, it was easy enough for followers to find out that Jesus was taken to Pilate, but next to impossible to find out what was said). As time went on, we can see an increasing desire to fill in the blank spots. For example, Mark has no birth narrative. But both Matthew and Luke do. And this tendency grows, as with an infancy gospel in which Jesus' childhood is covered.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Whether drawing upon oral tradition or upon gospels drawing upon oral tradition, there is no assurance that what we see is not simply the conflation of sayings typical to a particular milieu and conveniently (and falsely) attributed to character that increasingly became the personification of a religious movement. To suggest that these sayings serve as compelling evidence for a historical Jesus is simply wishful thinking.

Thank you, that rather succinctly sums up the point I was about to make.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Thank you, that rather succinctly sums up the point I was about to make.

How about this?
It's the most adolescent of skepticisms. As I've noted previously, for those not driven by dogma, Josephus and Acts are more than adequate to demand the provisional acceptance of historicity.

Even if we accept the extreme skepticism of Bultmann concerning our ability or inability to trace various sayings or events in the gospels back to the historical Jesus, that is hardly needed in order to say that Jesus was historical.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
There may very well have been an historical Jesus behind a Jesus movement, or a Galilean ministry considering some of the preaching we find within Q, but the epistle writers should not be confused with that ministry or movement. The Christ of Paul's and the other epistle writers is a sky god, and Paul may be harking back to a Jesus type figure that was crucified several generations before his time as suggested by Jewish literature, or it could be as Doherty suggests, no earthly figure at all as far as the epistle writers are concerned.
 
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Oberon

Well-Known Member
Paul's, and the other epistle writer's Christ is a sky god
So you've said (and I'm sure there plenty of websites which agree). Yet even if we ignore the gospels AND josephus, and focus just on Paul, your "sky god" theory is remarkably flawed:

1. Paul specifically states that Jesus was descended from david according to the flesh. What kind of "sky god" is descended from ANYONE according to the flesh, let alone a member of the Israelite davidic lineage?

2. Paul states that Jesus has a meal prior to his death. So are we imagining the sky god came down for chow prior to death?

3. Speaking of death, this sky god was crucified, according to Paul. Now, although the "dying and resurrecting" gods like Mithras weren't around until after all the gospels, there were gods that died. But these deaths were not at all similar the death of Jesus as described by Paul. And the gods that died weren't "sky gods."

4. Dogsgod has frequently claimed that Peter and the other apostles in his letters are like him: self-appointed (or claiming to be appointed by a risen christ). If this were true, then there are two points in Paul's letters that make NO sense whatsoever.

First, in a letter in which Paul discusses divorce, he mentions this command is from Jesus, not him. Shortly after, he issues another command, only this time he says that it is his own, not Jesus'. Shortly after that, on another issue, he says he has no command from Jesus on this particular issue (this is all in 1 Cor. 7, by the way). If Jesus is no more than a sky-god, known to Paul and the rest of them by "revelation," why on earth does Paul need to distinguish his teachings from those of Jesus? If dogsgod is correct, there WAS no earthly Jesus, and all teachings were "revealed" anyway. It would make no sense for Paul to distinguish his commands from Jesus' because he gets them all from revelation anyway.

Second, Paul acknowledges Peter as a leader of the Jerusalem community. According to dogsgod's theory, however, Peter was simply a "christian" (whatever that meant) before Paul, not a disciple of an earthly Jesus (who never existed). Both Paul and Peter were "appointed" by a spiritual sky-god. Yet, in Galatians, Paul tells us he went to Jerusalem and spent 15 days with Peter, and no one else, "inquiring into" him. The verb (for which there is no exact english equivalent) does not mean a simple conversation or even getting acquainted (as, unfortunately, it is often translated as in order to make for smoother reading). The verb implies a one-sided gathering of information. Paul spent 15 days getting information from Peter, even though Paul also records his contention with peter. If they were both appointed by a sky-god, why would there be any need to spend 15 days getting info from Peter? Paul can just get them straight from Jesus.



5. Last, but certainly not least, if Jesus was a sky-god, we did he have brother? Now, dogsgod continually harps on the fact that paul uses "brothers/brethren" as a metaphor, which is true. However, what he has consistently failed to show every time this has come up is where in all of greek literature the formula X the brother of Y is used to refer to non-literal kin. The genitive (usually a genitive anyway) after a name is an identifier (by father, place of origin, title, husband, etc). Too many people had the same name, and identifiers were essential to understand who someone was talking about. Paul uses "brother of the lord" only of James, and James "the lesser" at that. Price's theory about some group which eventually was known as "the brothers of Jesus" fails because 1. it ignores the syntactical identification construction and 2. there is no evidence anywhere for such a group. Only one brother is named in Paul, and only one more in the gospels. Additionally, Jesus' family is hostile to him in the gospels, and in Paul only one brother is a member of the sect. Even if we completely ignored the identification construction X brothery of Y, Price's theory still fails because there are almost NO positive references to Jesus' family in all of christian literature apart from his mother and James. In fact, the gospels specifically state that his family didn't believe in him. And James, the brother of the lord, is a minor figure even in Paul. He appears to have joined the club after Jesus' death, or in any case is a late-comer. So against the idea of James being literal kin we have the fact that Paul uses the word brother in a different construction elsewhere metaphorically, and we have Price's theory about a symbolic group of brothers who are virtually never mentioned and don't include any of the leaders of the church. For the idea that James IS literal kin, we have the fact that the formula X the brother of Y ALWAYS refers to literal kin, the fact that only James is referred to in this way, the fact that the gospels, independently of Paul, also state that Jesus had a brother named James, and it is even in Josephus. Not really a tough decision.


Paul may be harking back to a Jesus type figure that was crucified several generations before his time as suggested by Jewish literature

1. So Jesus' brother must be well over a hundred years old. Amazing.
2. Where in Jewish literature does it suggest that a figure will be crucified?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
..., or it could be as Doherty suggests, no earthly figure at all as far as the epistle writers are concerned.
And then proceeds to fabricate a complicated Torah-observant Jerusalem sect formed around the "no[n] earthly figure" with whom he must contend? As I've said, this is little more than the most adolescent dogma-driven drivel fabricated out of thin air.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Again, historical people have real names and real recorded events surrounding their personna. Not so the case with our so-called historical Jesus, whose life must be "manufactured" from hearsay much shifted into the future of said life by persons whose testimony is jaded at best, and forged at worst, who really have no detailed information at all about the real man, just "prophesied stories" or impossible miracles.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
And then proceeds to fabricate a complicated Torah-observant Jerusalem sect formed around the "no[n] earthly figure" with whom he must contend? As I've said, this is little more than the most adolescent dogma-driven drivel fabricated out of thin air.
It wasn't the first non earthly fabrication, God is unearthly and fabricated, so why not his Son, who was believed to be a mediator or messenger between man, (by way of apostles), and God? Gospel writers brought him down to earth and years later, gentiles bit.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
attestation
1 a : to affirm to be true or genuine; specifically : to authenticate by signing as a witness b : to authenticate officially
2 : to establish or verify the usage of
3 : to be proof of : manifest <her record attests her integrity>
4 : to put on oath, from merriam webster


Attestation as in 2. To establish or verify the usage of the gospels. There are no known direct attestations to the gospels until Justin Martyr writes in 150CE. The gospels weren't as wide spread and known early on as some today are led to believe.
 
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