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Flogging the adulterer - Sura of Light

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
One of the considerations for Baha'is is we must become thoroughly acquainted with the character of our potential spouse. In my experience, many enter into an intense physical relationsip with their partner before really getting to know them. Ever heard the phrase, 'love is blind'?

I am a staunch proponent of the notion that there is no substitute for good character. Religions, ideologies, worldviews -- none of those things in my experience can replace what is simplistically called "good character". So I quite agree with you that you should come to know someone's character before you marry them.

One thing I've seen again and again in America -- usually among Evangelicals -- is that they are raised with unrealistic expectations in at least two ways. First, they are taught that finding a "good or devout Christian" for a spouse will insure them against such things as spousal abuse or infidelity. But in practice, that is simply not true. Time and again, devout spouses turn into abusers and/or adulterers. Not even religion is a substitute for character.

Second, many young Evangelicals (and sometimes others) expect to stay abstinent until marriage. Some do, but the vast majority don't. Time and again, I have known people to have sex before marriage, then marry because they had sex. The thinking seems to be that you must marry the first person you have sex with. Ten or so years later, they're divorced. Yet so little is spoken about how the pressure to marry the first person you have sex with leads to weak, unstable marriages.

All too often when young people marry the first person they have sex with, they are marrying someone on no more solid a foundation than mutual lust.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
@Vouthon

Muslims regard the gospels as corrupted and suprceded by the Quran.

Good grief!

In another thread I wrote (to you): ‘The Qur’an does not ‘supersede the Gospels’, as you claim. It merely corrects errors that have distorted the message given to Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām).’

You replied:

‘If you say the Quran corrects the Gospels you are saying in essence one supersedes the other………If you say the Quran is the Word of God and the Gospels are corrupted, you are saying the Quran supercedes the Gospels.’

No!

You are misunderstanding the meaning of the word ‘supersede’. To supersede means to take the place of….or to supplant.

The verb ‘(to) correct’ means ‘to make true’; ‘to make accurate’; ‘to remove errors or faults’.

A pupil writes: ‘The Norman invasion of England took place at Brighton, in 1166.’

When his teacher replaces ‘Brighton’ with ‘Hastings’ and ‘1166’ with ‘1066’ she is not supplanting (superseding…..abrogating) his statement, she is correcting it (removing its errors) so as to make it true.

We can discuss this on our original thread. Wait for my next post there…...pleeeeease!

Have a nice day! :D
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Society is complex and varied, and how people view marriage is no exception. Some see it as more of a civil contract, and others see it as bound for eternity, and continuing into heaven, with God. So we can't apply any singular religious idea to the whole of humanity, as life isn't that simple. In almost all societies, though, adultery is considered immoral, and frowned upon, mainly because of the emotional pain it causes the other person, when done secretively. Open marriages are another matter altogether. So the punishment is the loss of respect. I have a close friend who was cheated on. She married a guy who couldn't keep it in his pants, and now he's on at least his third spouse, maybe higher. He has 'sets' of kids all around. I've seen him once or twice, but I don't speak to him. (Or he doesn't speak to me) I don't think he gets it yet, as the behaviour continues. There are more innocents in line to be hurt.

As for marriage itself, I've always been of the opinion that it is just as much about when you marry, as who you marry. In other words, mature people combine to make mature marriages. Mature people are prepared for all the unexpected challenges, and are up for it. I most certainly don't believe in this soul mate idea.

I also don't get this 'inspect your potential spouse' idea, so much. Simultaneously, it should be 'inspect myself'. That part is far less selfish. The question should be just as much ."Am I ready for marriage?" as "Is this person okay?"

In traditional Hindu culture it was arranged marriages. I know a ton of people who have such very successful marriages, because their more mature parents delved deep into finding the match. Both sides did their suitable investigating. Today love marriage is far more common, but there is a lot of dating, and getting to know each other beforehand. It doesn't always work out, but at least it's a much stronger attempt than lust alone.
 
Good grief!

In another thread I wrote (to you): ‘The Qur’an does not ‘supersede the Gospels’, as you claim. It merely corrects errors that have distorted the message given to Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām).’

You replied:

‘If you say the Quran corrects the Gospels you are saying in essence one supersedes the other………If you say the Quran is the Word of God and the Gospels are corrupted, you are saying the Quran supercedes the Gospels.’

No!

You are misunderstanding the meaning of the word ‘supersede’. To supersede means to take the place of….or to supplant.

The verb ‘(to) correct’ means ‘to make true’; ‘to make accurate’; ‘to remove errors or faults’.

A pupil writes: ‘The Norman invasion of England took place at Brighton, in 1166.’

When his teacher replaces ‘Brighton’ with ‘Hastings’ and ‘1166’ with ‘1066’ she is not supplanting (superseding…..abrogating) his statement, she is correcting it (removing its errors) so as to make it true.

We can discuss this on our original thread. Wait for my next post there…...pleeeeease!

Have a nice day! :D


The problem with this line of argument is that there is not 'uncorrupted' Gospel to go back to. As such those seeking 'true' spiritual guidance need to rely on the Quran. Thus it is correct to say that the Quran supersedes the Gospels as a source of Divine guidance, even if it is purportedly correcting them back to their 'true' state.

Also given that one cannot be a Muslim without repeating the shahada which acknowledges Muhammad as a prophet, it is correct to say it is a supersessionist religion.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Adultery is seen as immoral in the Baha'i Faith. There are no penalties set at this stage and any penalties in the future would most likely be a civil matter.
How can the action of adultery be a civil matter? Does the Aqdas refer to such actions?

Even sex outside wedlock will result in a Bahai fine, I believe?

Now how many people will accept laws like that?

This begs the question about what would happen to LGBT folks if they should make love.

This thread could backfire on you, methinks. :shrug:
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
The problem with this line of argument is that there is not 'uncorrupted' Gospel to go back to. As such those seeking 'true' spiritual guidance need to rely on the Quran. Thus it is correct to say that the Quran supersedes the Gospels as a source of Divine guidance, even if it is purportedly correcting them back to their 'true' state.

Also given that one cannot be a Muslim without repeating the shahada which acknowledges Muhammad as a prophet, it is correct to say it is a supersessionist religion.

Thank you for your comments.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) created human beings as equals, who are to be distinguished from each other only on the basis of their faith and piety. He tells us: ‘People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know one another. In Allāh’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: Allāh is all knowing, all aware.’ (Al-Hujurat: 13).

Not only are human beings created as equals, they are given different paths to follow:

‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

The message is clear: Whatever path we happen to be on – whatever law we happen to follow – we are each of us called to do good.

People are free to choose whatever religion they wish (or to have no religion at all):

‘There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allāh has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. Allāh is all hearing and all knowing. Allāh is the ally of those who believe: He brings them out of the depths of darkness and into the light.’ (Al-Baqara: 256-257).

Professor Muhammad Abdel Haleem writes: ‘This verse begins with the phrase lā ikrāha fī’l-dīn (there is no compulsion in religion). It is introduced by ‘lā’, the particle of absolute negation in Arabic, which negates absolutely the notion of compulsion in religion. Religion in the Qur’an is based on choice, and true choice is based on knowledge and making matters clear for people to choose. The rest of the ‘there is no compulsion in religion’ verse gives reasons justifying and explaining this.’ (‘Exploring the Qur'an: Context and Impact’).

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says this: ‘For the (Muslim) believers, the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians – those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ (Al-Ma’ida 69).

Puritans (a minority group in Islam) claim that this verse has been abrogated by the following:

‘If anyone seeks a religion other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’ (Al‘Imran: 85).

The words ‘complete devotion’ are a rendition of ‘islam’; a word that is never capitalised in Arabic. This word can also be rendered ‘submission’.

Puritans take the word ‘religion’, and then capitalise ‘islam’; giving the impression that the verse refers to that particular Faith alone. They argue that Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). At the same time, they claim (correctly) that Islam is not merely a ‘religion’, but a way of life. But so are Christianity and Judaism (and all other religions, too, of course). And the best ‘way of life’ is one spent in complete devotion to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).

Al‘Imran: 85 can safely be rendered: ‘If anyone seeks a way of life other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’

Consider this:

‘….those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ This is Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s solemn promise. It has not been abrogated, since He does not renege on His promises.

All people, regardless of their religion – or none – are required to spread justice and compassion on earth.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says this: ‘Spend in Allāh’s cause: do not contribute to your destruction with your own hands, but do good, for Allāh loves those who do good.’ (Al-Baqara: 195); and this: ‘Allāh loves those who keep their pledges and are mindful of Him……who give, both in prosperity and adversity, who restrain their anger and pardon people – Allāh loves those who do good…….. so pardon them and ask forgiveness for them. Consult with them about matters, then, when you have decided on a course of action, put your trust in Allāh: Allāh loves those who put their trust in Him.’ (Al‘Imran: 76; 134; 159): and this: ‘Allāh loves those who seek to purify themselves.’ (Al-Tawba: 108).

Anyone who behaves in the manner described in these verses is loved by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). Anyone at all.

There is no reason why a Christian (or a Jew) should read the Qur’an (apart from a desire for knowledge). The writings and teachings of their respective Faiths are more than enough.

By the way, a Muslim man may marry a Christian (or Jewish) woman. She is under no obligation to convert to Islam, and has every right to continue practising her Faith. My wife, for example, is a Catholic. And no…she has never read the Qur’an!
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
How can the action of adultery be a civil matter? Does the Aqdas refer to such actions?

Even sex outside wedlock will result in a Bahai fine, I believe?

Now how many people will accept laws like that?

This begs the question about what would happen to LGBT folks if they should make love.

This thread could backfire on you, methinks. :shrug:

What is the Baha'i punishment for gay Baha'is who indulge? (Assuming there is such a thing as a gay Baha'i)
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Good grief!

In another thread I wrote (to you): ‘The Qur’an does not ‘supersede the Gospels’, as you claim. It merely corrects errors that have distorted the message given to Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām).’

You replied:

‘If you say the Quran corrects the Gospels you are saying in essence one supersedes the other………If you say the Quran is the Word of God and the Gospels are corrupted, you are saying the Quran supercedes the Gospels.’

No!

You are misunderstanding the meaning of the word ‘supersede’. To supersede means to take the place of….or to supplant.

The verb ‘(to) correct’ means ‘to make true’; ‘to make accurate’; ‘to remove errors or faults’.

Can we use Abrogate and everyone may be happy. :) Allah can Abrogate.

The Message of the Quran brought a New Heaven and a New Earth and abrogated the Message of Jesus the Christ. Thus all of Christianity should have embraced Allah and the Message of Muhammad given in the Quran.

They missed a whole Judgement Day.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
So in these modern tiimes, should adultery still be considered a crime and if so what of should be the punishment?

How can the action of adultery be a civil matter? Does the Aqdas refer to such actions?

Even sex outside wedlock will result in a Bahai fine, I believe?

Now how many people will accept laws like that?

This begs the question about what would happen to LGBT folks if they should make love.

This thread could backfire on you, methinks. :shrug:

What is the Baha'i punishment for gay Baha'is who indulge? (Assuming there is such a thing as a gay Baha'i)

The question Adrian posted is quoted above.

The Baha'i Faith does have laws and many of these laws are not yet implimented. The right to determine these matters in the future for the Baha'i has been given to the Universal House of Justice. Until then we abide by the law of the land providing it does not conflict with a Baha'i law that has been implemented.

Adultery - Bahai9

Regards Tony
 
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Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
Can we use Abrogate and everyone may be happy. :) Allah can Abrogate.

The Message of the Quran brought a New Heaven and a New Earth and abrogated the Message of Jesus the Christ. Thus all of Christianity should have embraced Allah and the Message of Muhammad given in the Quran.

They missed a whole Judgement Day.

Regards Tony

No....it did not. And no.....they need not. That is why my wife - a Christian - is free to practise her Faith, and may NOT be compelled to change it...to embrace Islam.

Your claim is a Baha'i fiction, Tony. You will find no support for it in the Qur'an.

Allow me to repeat:

We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

When will He make clear the matters we differ about? At the Day of Judgement....when all will return to Him. Until then, we are free to follow our religion of choice (or to choose no religion at all).

Very best regards.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The question Adrian posted is quoted above.

The Baha'i Faith does have laws and many of these laws are not yet implimented. The right to determine these matters in the future for the Baha'i has been given to the Universal House of Justice. Until then we abide by the law of the land providing it does not conflict with a Baha'i law that has been implemented.

Adultery - Bahai9

Regards Tony
So there are no laws right now?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I am a staunch proponent of the notion that there is no substitute for good character. Religions, ideologies, worldviews -- none of those things in my experience can replace what is simplistically called "good character". So I quite agree with you that you should come to know someone's character before you marry them.

One thing I've seen again and again in America -- usually among Evangelicals -- is that they are raised with unrealistic expectations in at least two ways. First, they are taught that finding a "good or devout Christian" for a spouse will insure them against such things as spousal abuse or infidelity. But in practice, that is simply not true. Time and again, devout spouses turn into abusers and/or adulterers. Not even religion is a substitute for character.

Second, many young Evangelicals (and sometimes others) expect to stay abstinent until marriage. Some do, but the vast majority don't. Time and again, I have known people to have sex before marriage, then marry because they had sex. The thinking seems to be that you must marry the first person you have sex with. Ten or so years later, they're divorced. Yet so little is spoken about how the pressure to marry the first person you have sex with leads to weak, unstable marriages.

All too often when young people marry the first person they have sex with, they are marrying someone on no more solid a foundation than mutual lust.

It all comes down to good character and what promotes it rather than corrupts it. Fundamentalist Christianity and Islam all too often results in the opposite of what genuine religion should do. In such circumstances it is better to have no religion than the wrong religion. When religionists start concerning themselves more with the behaviour of others than themselves, the slippery slope begins.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
No....it did not. And no.....they need not.

Your claim is a Baha'i fiction, Tony. You will find no support for it in the Qur'an.

Allow me to repeat:

We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

When will He make clear the matters we differ about? At the Day of Judgement....when all will return to Him. Until then, we are free to follow our religion of choice (or to choose no religion at all).

Very best regards.

I see we are in that Judgement day.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
‘There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allāh has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. Allāh is all hearing and all knowing. Allāh is the ally of those who believe: He brings them out of the depths of darkness and into the light.’ (Al-Baqara: 256-257).

I couldn't agree more. The problem for Islam is the concept of apostasy and apostasy laws. One is free to become a Muslim but in some places in the world, particularly those countries with majority Islam populations where Islamic law is applied deprived of the right to convert to another religion. That sounds like compulsion to me.

Until the late 19th century, the vast majority of Sunni and Shia jurists held that for adult men, apostasy from Islam was a crime as well as a sin, an act of treason punishable with the death penalty, typically after a waiting period to allow the apostate time to repent and to return to Islam.

Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
No....it did not. And no.....they need not. That is why my wife - a Christian - is free to practise her Faith, and may NOT be compelled to change it...to embrace Islam.

Your claim is a Baha'i fiction, Tony. You will find no support for it in the Qur'an.

Allow me to repeat:

We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

When will He make clear the matters we differ about? At the Day of Judgement....when all will return to Him. Until then, we are free to follow our religion of choice (or to choose no religion at all).

Very best regards.

The problem is Muslims see Muhammad as the final prophet and the Quran God's final and perfect revelation. That understanding is based on the Quran, though a misunderstanding IMHO.

In regards Islam abrogating all other religions many Muslims and scholars are clear:

Islam abrogates all the previous religions, Christianity and Judaism included. And hence if the Jews and Christians do not accept Islam, they are the losers. Whatever good deeds they have will be scattered like dust on the Day of Judgement. We will only quote the Islamic position is on this issue. In The Reliance Of The Traveller, a book of Islamic jurisprudence, we read:


Previously revealed religions were valid in their own eras, as is attested by many verses of the Holy Koran, but were abrogated by the universal message of Islam, as is equally attested to by many verses of the Koran. Both points are worthy of attention for English-speaking Muslims, who are occasionally exposed to erroneous theories advanced by some teachers and Koran translators affirming these religions' validity but denying not mentioning their abrogatoin, or that is unbelief (kufr) to hold that the remnant cults now bearing the names of formerly valid religions, such as "Christianity" or "Judaism", are acceptable to Allah Most High after He sent the final Messenger (Allah bless him give him peace) to the entire world. This is a matter over which there is no disagreement among Islamic scholars....[1]



Please note that there is no disagreement among the Islamic scholars concerning the abrogation of previous religions like Judiasm and Christian and that believing in their validity is a form of kufr.


Abrogation Of Judiasm & Christianity By Islam
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
So if somebody commits adultery and gets reported by the LSA, they send a fine to the UHJ, and that's it?

There is no penalty set as yet.

As I am not on an LSA that has faced this situation, I can not comment on how they might address this situation.

Most likely they would encourage the offender to study what Baha'u'llah has offered on this subject. Bahá’u’lláh says adultery retards the progress of the soul in the afterlife, so grievous is it and not to so much as approach it.

We can see how clear our teachings are on these subjects.

Regards Tony
 
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