Flood Epics and Rosh Chodesh

[Onoma]

Well, having partially completed my studies in Mesopotamian languages, I couldn't help but notice that the Sumerian-Akkadian word for " floodwaters " also refers to the New Moon and therefore the synodic month average that was the staple of Mesopotamian luni-solar calendars

Thoughts ?

 

[Onoma]

There is the definition from the ePSD { at the top }

I included the large picture of the symbol for you as well

In the middle is an example of the term used in the Laws of Hammurabi

At the bottom is the Babylonian rendering of the average synodic month

 

[sun rise]

This thread might win an award for being unusual. I'm not sure what to make of it. I know that there are flood stories in many cultures; wikipedia has a good list. Given the widespread nature of the stories of a flood, there has to be some basis of a flood or perhaps multiple floods but that's as far as I can go.

 

[Onoma]

Given the fact that the ancients referred to the skies as " the seas " I don't think it's all that strange

Not in one bit

The phases of the moon were the " floodwaters " rising up and submerging it, then receding again to reveal it

These topics are not that difficult to understand with some study, I think it's just that people have their ideas and they are stuck on them

Me personally ?

I've studied and traced the topic from the earliest Sumerian city-states, using widely available peer-reviewed materials, all the way through Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Egyptians, etc,

Not just the languages and terminology, but the evolution of the specific terms and symbols / logograms / cuneiform used for astronomy

Not just astronomy, but mathematical astronomy handed down SOLELY by oral tradition in most cases, through the priesthoods

Then I learned the modern equations, and did a step-by-step comparison to the ancient methods, to show them as approximately identical

But I'm getting ahead of myself




Allow me to throw another dog leg in the mix

The Sumerian King's List, another object of my studies:

" After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug. In Eridug, Alulim became king; he ruled for 28,800 years. Alaljar ruled for 36,000 years. 2 kings; they ruled for 64,800 years. Then Eridug fell and the kingship was taken to Bad-tibira. In Bad-tibira, En-men-lu-ana ruled for 43,200 years. En-men-gal-ana ruled for 28,800 years. Dumuzid, the shepherd, ruled for 36,000 years. 3 kings; they ruled for 108,000 years. Then Bad-tibira fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Larag. In Larag, En-sipad-zid-ana ruled for 28,800 years. 1 king; he ruled for 28,800 years. Then Larag fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Zimbir. In Zimbir, En-men-dur-ana became king; he ruled for 21,000 years. 1 king; he ruled for 21,000 years. Then Zimbir fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Curuppag. In Curuppag, Ubara-Tutu became king; he ruled for 18,600 years. 1 king; he ruled for 18,600 years. In 5 cities 8 kings; they ruled for 241,200 years. Then the flood swept over' "



A " year " was counted as a " sar "

A " sar " as a number = 3600

This is the same as the Babylonian " saru ", which lends it's name to the Saros eclipse cycle { Borrowed by Greek mathematical astronomers - they had no notations of their own and used Babylonian et al }

sar = 3600 = saru

The " saru " { 3600 } is simply a term used in the synodic month average, something the Babylonians knew quite well

The length of the average synodic month, above, is the " molad " period of the Jewish calendar

" Molad " is a Hebrew term meaning " pregnancy " or " birth " that is applied to Rosh Chodesh, ie, New Moon

New Moon is when the moon disappears hence the Sumerian Akkadian term bubbulu

" disappearance of the moon "


So, I don't find it strange

What I find strange is that people don't bother studying anymore, and because of that, they have come up with some incredibly bizarre ideas about things like worldwide floods

 

[Native]

Hello Onoma,

What I find strange is that people don't bother studying anymore, and because of that, they have come up with some incredibly bizarre ideas about things like worldwide floods

I agree in this. It is my firm conviction that ancient Myths of Creation contains real cosmological knowledge.

Regarding your translation of "floodwaters" and "moon", I would like the full context of what you are referring to in order to analyze the cosmological meaning.

 

[Onoma]

Hello Native, thanks for the interest

The context , ...the context

Well, I see you are looking for some sort of cosmological significance here ?

My own studies are specifically in the history of the mathematics and terminologies used for astronomy in the ruling priesthoods

I'd like to clarify something though, regarding the word " bubbulu "

It's not " my translation ", as you worded it, it is the de-facto translation offered by the ePSD { as explained in the opening post } and the book I quoted is by M.E.J. Richardson

====> ePSD LINK <=======

Are you asking me to break down the compound word in my opening post for you ?

The foundation of the mathematical astronomy in possession of the priesthoods itself is a body of knowledge handed down from " somebody " directly to the Sumerians, but unfortunately it is a little math heavy for the likes of this forum, so I will refrain from posting it

I can tell you that it was part of a mathematical proof of the existence of God and that it was considered sacred for good reason

I can tell you that it had to do with a lineage of priestly rulers that held the supposed " bloodline of the gods ", all of which is easily traceable with some light study in languages, math and history

If there is any cosmological significance, it is to be found in the mathematics

 

[rosends]

This thread might win an award for being unusual. I'm not sure what to make of it. I know that there are flood stories in many cultures; wikipedia has a good list. Given the widespread nature of the stories of a flood, there has to be some basis of a flood or perhaps multiple floods but that's as far as I can go.

I feel it is simpler. The new moon was a time of higher tides. It is a simple observational correlation. So the term for the New Moon moment would have to do with the waters flooding the shoreline -- not some cataclysmic flood. Descriptive language, that's all.

 

[Native]

@Onoma,

The Sumerian King's List, another object of my studies:

" After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug. In Eridug, Alulim became king; he ruled for 28,800 years. Alaljar ruled for 36,000 years. 2 kings; they ruled for 64,800 years. Then Eridug fell and the kingship was taken to Bad-tibira. In Bad-tibira, En-men-lu-ana ruled for 43,200 years. En-men-gal-ana ruled for 28,800 years. Dumuzid, the shepherd, ruled for 36,000 years. 3 kings; they ruled for 108,000 years. Then Bad-tibira fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Larag. In Larag, En-sipad-zid-ana ruled for 28,800 years. 1 king; he ruled for 28,800 years. Then Larag fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Zimbir. In Zimbir, En-men-dur-ana became king; he ruled for 21,000 years. 1 king; he ruled for 21,000 years. Then Zimbir fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Curuppag. In Curuppag, Ubara-Tutu became king; he ruled for 18,600 years. 1 king; he ruled for 18,600 years. In 5 cities 8 kings; they ruled for 241,200 years. Then the flood swept over' "

I mean, one cannot take these informations literary for real kings on the Earth with those long periods of time.

And the sentence "After the kingship descended from heaven" refers to the Story of Creation and thus a cosmological sentence.

 

[Onoma]

" after the kingship descended from heaven "

So are you suggesting some alternates for the diĝir ?

I would find that most interesting in light of the roles of the priestly stations " en-lil " and " en-ki " in the garden of the " gods ", as read alternately says " garden of the stars "

..a translation that makes much more sense considering the priestly stations included acting as the astronomer

" en-ki " as the " master astronomer " works much better as the " master gardener "

 

[Onoma]

As far as the King's List, there is " some " connection to Sumerian music theory, but again, a topic I fear is too much for this forum

 

[Aštra’el]

If you feel you have any significant esoteric insights regarding the Enûma Eliš, I think it would be awesome if you'd create a topic about it.

 

[Native]

Then the flood swept over'

" after the kingship descended from heaven "

So are you suggesting some alternates for the diĝir ?

I would find that most interesting in light of the roles of the priestly stations " en-lil " and " en-ki " in the garden of the " gods ", as read alternately says " garden of the stars "

..a translation that makes much more sense considering the priestly stations included acting as the astronomer

" en-ki " as the " master astronomer " works much better as the " master gardener "

I agree in your approach here. En-Lil and En-Ki represents to mee the creative forces and celestial symbols on both of the Earth hemispheres. That is. They primary and specifically represents the Milky Way contours which participates in the factual Story of Creation.

In this way they are both master-gardeners in the "Garden of Eden" and master astronomers.

Read more here from my personal Mytho-Cosmological site - http://www.native-science.net/MilkyWay.Mythology.Keys.htm

 

[Native]

@Onoma,
Regarding the "Flood Epics" part in your topic title, I would suggest you to concentrate on the MIlky Way Mythology, where the Milky Way contours, amongst other, is mentioned as "the Heavenly River" in several cultures.

The biblical Flood Myth is completely misunderstood as "a flood which once was running all over the Earth as a divine revenge over humans", but in fact it runs all around the Earth up in the Sky and it is just an ancient description of the nocturnal observation of the Milky Way contours.

Such interpretative mistakes takes place everywhere the ancient myths is taken literary or as blind beliefs and not as real cosmological informations.

Read here - http://www.native-science.net/Milky_Way_Flood.htm

 

[Onoma]

My interest is mainly in Sumerian and Akkadian, and not mythology, but mathematical astronomy

I really have no interest in mythology, it's something born on the tail end of pure mathematics in Sumeria, it belongs in the same box as astrolatry and astrology

 

[Onoma]

I guess if we want to examine this in a different light we could take a route of looking at the supposed " decrees of En-lil "

They were the supposed duties / attributes { although poorly understood } of the ruling priestly kings in Sumeria, which the later Abrahamic religions borrowed

Let's take note of # 22, the flood

1. ENship
2. Godship
3. The exalted and enduring crown
4. The throne of kingship
5. The exalted sceptre
6. The royal insignia
7. The exalted shrine
8. Shepherdship
9. Kingship
10. Lasting ladyship
11. "Divine lady" (a priestly office)
12. Ishib (a priestly office)
13. Lumah (a priestly office)
14. Guda (a priestly office)
15. Truth
16. Descent into the nether world
17. Ascent from the nether world
18. Kurgarra (a eunuch, or, possibly, ancient equivalent to modern concepts of androgyne or transsexual [6])
19. Girbadara (a eunuch)
20. Sagursag (a eunuch, entertainers related to the cult of Inanna [7])
21. The battle-standard
22. The flood
23. Weapons (?)
24. Sexual intercourse
25. Prostitution
26. Law (?)
27. Libel (?)
28. Art
29. The cult chamber
30. "hierodule of heaven"
31. Guslim (a musical instrument)
32. Music
33. Eldership
34. Heroship
35. Power
36. Enmity
37. Straightforwardness
38. The destruction of cities
39. Lamentation
40. Rejoicing of the heart
41. Falsehood
42. Art of metalworking
43. Scribeship
44. Craft of the smith
45. Craft of the leatherworker
46. Craft of the builder
47. Craft of the basket weaver
48. Wisdom
49. Attention
50. Holy purification
51. Fear
52. Terror
53. Strife
54. Peace
55. Weariness
56. Victory
57. Counsel
58. The troubled heart
59. Judgment
60. Decision
61. Lilis (a musical instrument)
62. Ub (a musical instrument)
63. Mesi (a musical instrument)
64. Ala (a musical instrument)

-----------------------

Granted, the mes are poorly understood

Nobody really knows what exactly they referred to, but we can reasonably assume that " the flood " is not talking about an actual flood

I will see if I can dig through my notes and find some more abut the mes in the next few days

 

[Native]

My interest is mainly in Sumerian and Akkadian, and not mythology, but mathematical astronomy

I really have no interest in mythology, it's something born on the tail end of pure mathematics in Sumeria, it belongs in the same box as astrolatry and astrology

Fair enough We all have our personal approaches and in this way we all can supplement each other . And I certainly could learn a lot from matemathics since my personal approach mostly is mythical, symbolical, cosmological, intuitive and visionary.

For instants, I would like to know if one could calculate the formation of our Solar System by taking the annual 15.6 cm increasing distance between the Earth and the Sun and see back in time when these two celestial bodies supposedly were one. And do the same calculation for the Moon and Earth with the annual increasing distance of 3.8 cm.

It is my firm conviction that "myths" is conrete and empirical cosmological knowledge of our ancestors, but we´ve forgotten the mythical connections to the celestial meanings and objects.

Take the numerous cultural Myths of Creation. These are mostly interpreted to deal with the creation of the entire Universe, but they "just" speak of the creation of the ancient known part of the Universe, namely of our Milky Way and the Solar System.

That is: In order to descipher the ancient myths of creation, we have to connect these myths to the pre-creation (chaos) and factual creation of the Milky Way galaxy (cosmos) and thus to the very outlooks of the Milky Way contours in the night Sky on both of the Earth hemispheres (En-Ki and En-Lil) and the division of the Earth and Sky which gives us the mytho-cosmological terms of The Overworld and Underworld)

And from here we can work analythical with your 64 mytho-cosmological/ psychological paragraphs you´ve noted

--------------
As a Danish Comparative Mythologist for some 35 years, you´ve just teached me a new term, "Astrolatry" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolatry

Astrolatry is the worship of stars and other heavenly bodies as deities, or the association of deities with heavenly bodies. The most common instances of this are sun gods and moon gods in polytheistic systems worldwide. Also notable is the association of the planets with deities in Babylonian, and hence in Greco-Roman religion, viz. Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.

The definition here lack the notice of the Milky Way and the emphasis is just of the Solar System but this is an integrated part of the Milky Way rotation and formation which was specifically known by our ancestors via both physical and spiritual observations.

The Astrolatry definition speaks of the Sun as the only known light source, but our ancestors also knew of the central Milky Way light of creation. And the definition speaks of "moon gods", but our ancestors marked the Milky Way looks as a crescent figure in the night Sky, seemingly revolving around the celestial poles on both hemispheres and thus adding Milky Way deities to the entire story. (When reffering to "deities" I personally prefere the terms "celestial objects, forces and motions).

In this way, Milky Way concerns (deities and forces) becomes interpreted as Solar and Lunar issues, which of course distorts the entire mythical and cosmological meanings of the stories of creation.

- By not having any knowledge or notice of the Milky Way Mythology, scholars misinterpret the entire myto-cosmological heritage which really supercedes the understanding of modern cosmology.

Granted, the mes are poorly understood

Nobody really knows what exactly they referred to, but we can reasonably assume that " the flood " is not talking about an actual flood

I will see if I can dig through my notes and find some more abut the mes in the next few days

It´s my opinion that it is possible to decipher the ancient knowledge as described above. I´m looking very much forward to your further notes and to your answer to this reply.

 

[Native]

Onoma,
As an interpretative example of your:

Descent into the nether world

From - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kur
In Sumerian mythology, Kur is considered the first dragon[citation needed], and usually referred to the Zagros mountains to the east of Sumer. The cuneiform for "kur" was written ideographically with the cuneiform sign , a pictograph of a mountain.[1] It can also mean "foreign land".

My comment: Kur = Dragon refers to the white/grey Milky Way band which encircles the entire Earth on the night Sky. In Norse Mythology, we have the Midgaard Serpent which encircles the Midgaard, the land of the humans = The Earth.

This Serpent also surrounds the Milky Way center which mythologically is described as "a Mound", as for instants with the Hindu Moun(d)t Meru "around which the entire solar System orbits as one unit" as it is described here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Meru

Kur, as in the "nether world", represent the very Milky Way center which is positioned on the Earth southern hemisphere, i.e. under the northern hemisphere = "The Underworld" from our perspective. It is from the center of Kur (In the Star Constellation of Sagittarius) everything in our Milky Way is created and to where everything returns because it is a circuit of life - and an electromagnetically one.

My interpretation and explanation fits very well to the further description here:

"Although the word for earth was Ki, Kur came to also mean land, and Sumer itself, was called "Kur-gal" or "Great Land". "Kur-gal" also means "Great Mountain" and is a metonym for both Nippur and Enlil who rules from that city.[2] Ekur, "mountain house" was the temple of Enlil at Nippur. A second, popular meaning of Kur was "underworld", or the world under the earth.[3]

Kur was sometimes the home of the dead,[4] it is possible that the flames on escaping gas plumes in parts of the Zagros mountains would have given those mountains a meaning not entirely consistent with the primary meaning of mountains and an abode of a god. The eastern mountains as an abode of the god with the farther East as the origin of all gods was popular in Ancient Near Eastern mythology".

 

[fallingblood]

I think you're reading too much into this. The flood was just a flood. We can trace back the history, and see that around that same general time frame, there was a flood in Mesopotamia, that roughly matches up to the time of this writing.

We can also just look at the writing in general and see that it is written as an epic. That should tell us the nature of the story, and that it was intended as something that happened right here on earth, and that the flood was in fact a flood. Combining that with known history, we can be certain that the flood story was based on an actual flood that happened in recent memory.

The biggest flaw though, I believe, is that you're assuming that since words are similar, they must then relate. That's not really true. Translations are hardly ever that easy.

 

[metis]

It appears likely that both the creation and flood narratives were taken from a lengthy Babylonian narrative that preceded the writing of Genesis by about 1000 years and reworked to teach basic Jewish values.

 

[Native]

I think you're reading too much into this. The flood was just a flood. We can trace back the history, and see that around that same general time frame, there was a flood in Mesopotamia, that roughly matches up to the time of this writing.

We can also just look at the writing in general and see that it is written as an epic. That should tell us the nature of the story, and that it was intended as something that happened right here on earth, and that the flood was in fact a flood. Combining that with known history, we can be certain that the flood story was based on an actual flood that happened in recent memory.

The biggest flaw though, I believe, is that you're assuming that since words are similar, they must then relate. That's not really true. Translations are hardly ever that easy.

"The flood was just a flood"? A flood that covered the entire Earth until the top of Mount Ararat reappered again? Not very likely.

No my friend. You have to know of the Milky Way Mythology and its many mytho-cosmological names, amongst which the Milky Way is mentioned as "the heavenly river in the Sky" in several cultures. Read more here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way_(mythology)

This river/flood can be observed running in the Sky all around the Earth and not ON the Earth as scholars interpret this because they´ve forgotten the mytho-cosmological connections in the creation stories.