Flood Epics and Rosh Chodesh

[Native]

It appears likely that both the creation and flood narratives were taken from a lengthy Babylonian narrative that preceded the writing of Genesis by about 1000 years and reworked to teach basic Jewish values.

The Flood Myth is told in many cultural Myths of Creation all over the World, simply because they all are describing the very same celestial imagery of the MIlky Way River.

 

[metis]

The Flood Myth is told in many cultural Myths of Creation all over the World, simply because they all are describing the very same celestial imagery of the MIlky Way River.

In the Babylonian case, much more likely from the periodic flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates. About 2/3 of all societies had flood myths, and the vast majority of these experienced periodic flooding themselves.

 

[Native]

In the Babylonian case, much more likely from the periodic flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates. About 2/3 of all societies had flood myths, and the vast majority of these experienced periodic flooding themselves.

Of course all cultures have had some local and annual floods.

But we are talking of a mythical/biblical flood which "covered the entire Earth" until Mount Ararat became visible again".

This is of course nonsense to believe this flood once covered the entire Earth and it is a misconception of the ancient Myths of Creation and the description of the Milky Way.

The Milky Way River or Flood runs OVER the Earth up in the Sky and all around the Earth. There NEVER was "a biblical flood of divine revenge".

Link - http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/milky_way.html

 

[fallingblood]

"The flood was just a flood"? A flood that covered the entire Earth until the top of Mount Ararat reappered again? Not very likely.

No my friend. You have to know of the Milky Way Mythology and its many mytho-cosmological names, amongst which the Milky Way is mentioned as "the heavenly river in the Sky" in several cultures. Read more here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way_(mythology)

This river/flood can be observed running in the Sky all around the Earth and not ON the Earth as scholars interpret this because they´ve forgotten the mytho-cosmological connections in the creation stories.

The Milky Way may be referred to as "the heavenly river in the Sky," however, that really doesn't mean much when not taken into context. And just because it is referred to in one manner in one culture, that doesn't mean it is referred to as such in all cultures.

If we look at Mesopotamian mythology, which this particular flood story is located (and the flood story from the Bible has its origins), the Milky Way was seen as something created from Tiamat's tail. So you have to look at the actual mythology of the area, instead of just combining all mythology together, as different cultures saw things differently.

More so, there was a differentiation between the Milky Way, a cosmological feature, and rivers on Earth. Just because the river is mentioned, one can't assume it is talking about the Milky Way, unless some other context suggests such. That is not the situation in these flood stories.

And the flood stories, in these cases, were nothing more than flood stories. Were they historically correct? Did the flood cover the entire world? No. Its exaggerations, as we would see in an epic. That's largely what we would expect in an epic, an exaggeration.

And scholars haven't forgotten mytho-cosmological connections. They just don't ascribe them to every piece.

 

[Native]

If we look at Mesopotamian mythology, which this particular flood story is located (and the flood story from the Bible has its origins), the Milky Way was seen as something created from Tiamat's tail. So you have to look at the actual mythology of the area, instead of just combining all mythology together, as different cultures saw things differently.

Of course on can combine all mythology together since they all describe the same Milky Way all over the world but of course with both similar (for instants rivers) and different (for instants celestial cows) symbols.
In your case of Tiamat it also makes sense to describe this Milky Way figure as a Dragon in the Sky.

 

[fallingblood]

Of course on can combine all mythology together since they all describe the same Milky Way all over the world but of course with both similar (for instants rivers) and different (for instants celestial cows) symbols.
In your case of Tiamat it also makes sense to describe this Milky Way figure as a Dragon in the Sky.

No, you can't combine all mythology together. I can't say that early Native American believed in Tiamat just because it is part of mythology in general. I can't look at Mesopotamia, and claim that the mythology surrounding corn has anything to do with them, as it simply didn't exist in that area. Mythology is largely dependent on that culture, so one can't just group it all together and pretend that one culture believed something because a different one did.

And no, it wouldn't make sense to describe the Milky Way as a Dragon in Mesopotamian mythology. The reason is simple, that's not what is recorded. It was said to be the tail of Tiamat, only a portion of that god.

 

[metis]

Of course all cultures have had some local and annual floods.

But we are talking of a mythical/biblical flood which "covered the entire Earth" until Mount Ararat became visible again".

This is of course nonsense to believe this flood once covered the entire Earth and it is a misconception of the ancient Myths of Creation and the description of the Milky Way.

The Milky Way River or Flood runs OVER the Earth up in the Sky and all around the Earth. There NEVER was "a biblical flood of divine revenge".

Link - http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/milky_way.html

Whom are you arguing against?

BTW, not all cultures had a problem with flooding, including eretz Israel-- unless one wants to go back over 10,000 years.

 

[Native]

No, you can't combine all mythology together. I can't say that early Native American believed in Tiamat just because it is part of mythology in general. I can't look at Mesopotamia, and claim that the mythology surrounding corn has anything to do with them, as it simply didn't exist in that area. Mythology is largely dependent on that culture, so one can't just group it all together and pretend that one culture believed something because a different one did.

And no, it wouldn't make sense to describe the Milky Way as a Dragon in Mesopotamian mythology. The reason is simple, that's not what is recorded. It was said to be the tail of Tiamat, only a portion of that god.

You seem to forget that ancient myths can becataloged by the method of Comparative Mythology. You also seems to ignore that the ancient Myths of Creation deals with real cosmological knowledge and astronomical observations and not mumble jumble hearsayings.

No you can´t say that "early Native American believed in Tiamat" but they certainly believed in the same observation of the Milky Way to which they gave their special name and symbolism which computes to the Mesopotamian Tiamat.

Regarding the "Dragon Tiamat tail": How would you otherwise describe a god with a tail?

Quote from - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat
“It is suggested that there are two parts to the Tiamat mythos, the first in which Tiamat is a creator goddess, through a "Sacred marriage" between salt and fresh water, peacefully creating the cosmos through successive generations.

In the second "Chaoskampf" Tiamat is considered the monstrous embodiment of primordial chaos. Some sources identify her with images of a sea serpent or dragon”.

Just like in the Norse Mythology and it´s Midgaard Serpent, Tiamat represents the Milky Way contours, which encircle the entire Earth.

These myths are really talking of cosmological and astronomical facts and even facts of the creation of the Milky Way itself. And these are of course facts for all humans all over the world.

 

[Native]

Whom are you arguing against?

I´m aguing against those who interpret the biblical (and global) Flood Myth as a real flood which once supposedly should have covered the Earth by a divine revenge.

This is a dualistic interpretation which derives from the lack of knowledge of the Milky Way Mythology.

 

[metis]

I´m aguing against those who interpret the biblical (and global) Flood Myth as a real flood which once supposedly should have covered the Earth by a divine revenge.

This is a dualistic interpretation which derives from the lack of knowledge of the Milky Way Mythology.

Thanks for the clarification. Also, the Milky Way Mythology is one facet of at least some of the flood narratives, but I'm certainly not discounting its impact on numerous cultures. We know that even Neanderthals looked up into the sky to trace certain celestial patterns.

 

[fallingblood]

You seem to forget that ancient myths can becataloged by the method of Comparative Mythology. You also seems to ignore that the ancient Myths of Creation deals with real cosmological knowledge and astronomical observations and not mumble jumble hearsayings.

Oh, I don't forget anything. Just kidding. But in this case, I'm not ignoring the context of the myths in question, particularly of those in Mesopotamia, as the OP set out. There is cosmological knowledge and astronomical observations in the creation stories among the myths in Mesopotamia; however, the flood story doesn't fit into the creation myth. The flood story happens afterwards, after creation. Its a separate myth, and can't be combined with earlier mythology.

And one can compare various mythology, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are 100% the same, or even comparable. There is a danger in comparative studies because often one wants to merge the two objects into one. You can't do that.

No you can´t say that "early Native American believed in Tiamat" but they certainly believed in the same observation of the Milky Way to which they gave their special name and symbolism which computes to the Mesopotamian Tiamat.

Did they though? Nope. There is some similarity, of course, since we are talking about something that is observable around the world. But the ideas surrounding the Milky Way, or Moon, or sun, etc are quite different. To try to smash it all together doesn't work as it means one has to ignore the actual details of either mythology.

Regarding the "Dragon Tiamat tail": How would you otherwise describe a god with a tail?

Monkey, birds, reptiles, etc. There are many things with a tail. Also, the tail itself would not constitute a dragon. I can't look at a monkey's tail and declare that it is a monkey.

Quote from - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat
“It is suggested that there are two parts to the Tiamat mythos, the first in which Tiamat is a creator goddess, through a "Sacred marriage" between salt and fresh water, peacefully creating the cosmos through successive generations.

In the second "Chaoskampf" Tiamat is considered the monstrous embodiment of primordial chaos. Some sources identify her with images of a sea serpent or dragon”.

Some sources. That's key. Not all sources. A sea serpent and dragon are also different. She has also been identified as a regular, human goddess, and often time, isn't identified in any form. None of that matters though as I was specifically talking about the tail, and only the tail. The tail itself does not depict a dragon, and the depiction in the particular myth swings neither way.

Just like in the Norse Mythology and it´s Midgaard Serpent, Tiamat represents the Milky Way contours, which encircle the entire Earth.

But Tiamat doesn't represent the Milky Way. Her tail does. There is a difference.

These myths are really talking of cosmological and astronomical facts and even facts of the creation of the Milky Way itself. And these are of course facts for all humans all over the world.

We are talking about a flood story, not creation. The flood stories happen long after the creation. So to jumble every myth together, as you are doing here, doesn't make sense, as they are referring to very different things.

Also, the cosmological and astronomical facts you are talking about don't exist in all of these mythological stories. The creation is often very different depending on which myth you look at. Some don't even talk about the Milky Way at all, and when they do, its creation is different. In order to get to your conclusion, one must ignore the differences, and only look at the similarities, while combining a random assortment of myths together, which doesn't work.

 

[Native]

Oh, I don't forget anything. Just kidding. But in this case, I'm not ignoring the context of the myths in question, particularly of those in Mesopotamia, as the OP set out. There is cosmological knowledge and astronomical observations in the creation stories among the myths in Mesopotamia; however, the flood story doesn't fit into the creation myth. The flood story happens afterwards, after creation. Its a separate myth, and can't be combined with earlier mythology.

And one can compare various mythology, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are 100% the same, or even comparable. There is a danger in comparative studies because often one wants to merge the two objects into one. You can't do that.

OK, at least we agree that ancient myths contains concrete cosmological and astronomical knowledge.

We all live on the same planet Earth, in the same Solar System, in the same Milky Way galaxy and in the same local part of the observable Universe. This is our common story of creation and it is told all over the world.

It is my firm conviction that the numerous cultural ancient Myths of Creation speaks of this creation of the Milky Way and NOT of the entire Universe. The most detailed myths of creation even speaks of the pre-conditions of this creation where "cosmic rivers of gaseous and particle matters" flows together in a center where it is heated up until it ignites to the central light of the Milky Way.

From this center different spheres of gas and dust (stars and planets) are assembled and spread out in the galactic arms which are called "galactic rivers" by our ancestors.

The galactic arms on both of the Earth hemispheres (the division of heaven and Earth) are imagined and symbolized by our ancestors all over the world with both human and animal figures of "archetypical/primeval creatures of creation".

On the southern hemisphere, where the galactic center of creation is located in the Sagittarius constellation, our ancestors imagined a female figure of creation, i.e Tiamat in our case, and it is from "her womb" (not tale) the Milky Way is formed.

That is: The southern hemisphere (the Underworld) shows the prime galactic female deity (The Mother Goddess) and the northern hemisphere shows the prime galactic male deity. (The Father God) And together, the assembled Milky Way contour is mentioned in several cultures as "The Cosmic Serpent" as well as "The Heavenly River" and even as "The Heavenly Ship" with referate to the Noah Ark telling.

This is my general approach and method when I interpret the cultural Stories of Creation and there is no comparative danger in this method since it is founded in the same cosmological conditions as described above.

It is just a question of connecting the mythical telling to the correct celestial object and motion.

Some links from my personal Mytho-Cosmological site to ponder over:
Great Mother Goddess -
http://www.native-science.net/MilkyWay.MotherGoddess.htm
Great Father God -
http://www.native-science.net/MilkyWay.GreatestGod.htm
Milky Way Myth Keys -
http://www.native-science.net/MilkyWay.Mythology.Keys.htm

 

[Desert Snake]

Well, having partially completed my studies in Mesopotamian languages, I couldn't help but notice that the Sumerian-Akkadian word for " floodwaters " also refers to the New Moon and therefore the synodic month average that was the staple of Mesopotamian luni-solar calendars

Thoughts ?

I think that the Hebraic flood narrative is meant as literal. I think that, the flood, although world wide, did not cover everything at once, and hence, not all animals were annihilated. The Ark was built, and regional animals, were taken aboard.

 

[Native]

Well, having partially completed my studies in Mesopotamian languages, I couldn't help but notice that the Sumerian-Akkadian word for " floodwaters " also refers to the New Moon and therefore the synodic month average that was the staple of Mesopotamian luni-solar calendars

I would like to read the definition and mythical sentense where "floodwaters" supposedly should refer to the "New Moon" because lots of mythical scholars confuses the crescent figure of the Milky Way with the lunar crescent.

 

[Native]

I think that the Hebraic flood narrative is meant as literal. I think that, the flood, although world wide, did not cover everything at once, and hence, not all animals were annihilated. The Ark was built, and regional animals, were taken aboard.

Just think about the food for humans and animals for 40 days - and what happend to all the water?

 

[Onoma]

Native, perhaps if you just spent the time to study some language, you might get your answers

I'm going to be honest here, I'm not going to waste a lot of time posting my material on this website as I have my own forum to maintain

I'll post a few more things about this topic and then I go back to preparing my own website for publication


First of all, native, if you learn some Sumerian the below terms will make sense { I won't explain it to you }

They will make sense because you will understand the later Babylonian rendering of the Synodic month

You will be familiar with the average synodic length as the product of the Babylonian Zig Zag function { a precursor to Fourier analysis }

Because you will be familiar with the spoken language as well as the written text { Like me }

Then when you study all that together, you can go and learn math, like me, and study their mathematics and notations

Now I could give you example after example, from sources like Sumerian / Akkadian magic texts, or a slew of other material, but would you try to grasp it ?

smh

Well, back to preparing my website and the articles contained therein

 

[Native]

Well, back to preparing my website and the articles contained therein

Thanks for your reply. Where can we find your forum/website?

 

[Native]

THE ALLEGORICAL, LEGENDARY AND FACTUAL FLOOD MYTH

Quote from - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_flood_narrative

“The Genesis flood narrative makes up chapters 6–9 in the Book of Genesis, in the Bible. As one of many flood myths found in human cultures, the narrative recounts God's intent to return the Earth to its pre-creation state of watery chaos by flooding the Earth because of humanity's misdeeds and then remake it using the microcosm of Noah's ark. Thus, the flood was a reversal of creation.

The narrative discusses the evil of mankind that moved God to destroy the world by the way of the flood, the preparation of the ark for certain animals, Noah, and his family, and God's guarantee (the Noahic Covenant) for the continued existence of life under the promise that he would never send another such flood.

Although many religious groups consider the story to be largely allegorical, there are still many groups and individuals who believe the story to be literally true. Since at least the 19th century, scholarly consensus and evidence from scientific investigation have shown that the story cannot be literally true, and among scholars it is categorized along with other flood myths as a legend”.

Comment: A “legend” can be “a tale” which contents just are forgotten by modern humans. The Flood Myth is specifically connected to the numerous Stories of Creation from all over the World and it logically must be consciously connected to the factual creation in which we humans live on the Earth, in our Solar System and in our Milky Way galaxy. (And NOT to the entire creation of the Universe as it usually is understood)

Thinking of the Flood Myth as “a divine revenge from the creative powers/deities” is pure dualistic nonsense. Why would a supreme and all knowing creator destroy his/hers/its own creation? This perception derives from the interpreters lack of mytho-cosmological knowledge and its connected celestial symbols.

Our ancestors described this creation “in their own images” giving human, animal and elementary symbols to everything they observed in the Sky. A river on the Earth gave for instants name to the celestial river in the Sky, the Milky Way contours and so on.

The Milky Way River can be observed running all around the Earth in the night Sky on a favorable seasonal period of the year. This celestial river is interpreted by scholars in modern times to “once have been running all over the Earth and ON the Earth”.

This huge confusion of course distorts both the ancient Flood Myth as well as its cosmological and astronomical meanings. And the often connected “ship” in the Flood Myths is also specifically connected to the Milky Way crescent contours on both hemispheres of the Earth.

Some illustrative links:

Milky Way Contours - http://www.native-science.net/MilkyWay.Contours.htm
The Divine Ship - http://www.native-science.net/Ship.Mythical.htm
List of flood myths - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths