Flood Evidences — revised

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If God made the ark to protect Noah, his family and all those animals, direct protection from God would make the ark superfluous. God could do anything God wants to and could have removed Noah et. al on an entire chunk of the Earth and set them in space to ride out the flood well away from it.

God should ask Jean Grey how she protected a plane from a flood in X2.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

What do you think would happen to the higher-latitude ground when it flooded from waters falling down and waters rising from below, and saturated it?

When my car has an icy windshield, how come I can use ambient temperature water to melt it?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

No one has ever satisfactorily explained how the Beresovka mammoth and other animals found frozen in the subarctic could have been frozen before being consumed by predators of the time

An animal died because it was cold and you are wondering why it wasn’t eaten? In the freezing weather that killed anyone there?

 

[rational experiences]

Humans prove memory tells true stories.

We call it psychic.

Humans said they witnessed human men building the ark.

Men of science state God told me how to build it. To save life.

Why was life not safe?

Flooding would arrive as men built the ark.

Measure is involved. Science applies measures.

You know you built science temples. You know the pyramid was used in conjunction with temples in nuclear sun themes. Theories thesis.

You quote the sun god was what rich men who used design and built revered.

Men talk about Ark of covenant. Stone laws. Breaking them.

Also said we saw water pouring out of the stone

Man's sin of science sink holes

Holy gods spirit body stone was not sacrificed held in tomb as theme dead. Meant not alight burning as the light of life was. Science had returned it's form above from its dead entombed state.

Sin holes. In sink holes you see water.

Men said water was once a very long time ago over the whole face of earth. It had receded. It was fresh.

It had receded as volcano erupted releasing chemical salts into sea. Salting it. Waters separated fresh from sea.

As human theists are human and theists. The same today as you were before. Always making your own stories as theists to be cult accepted human hierarchy.

All scientific terms.

So you not only have to advise natural stories about earths histories. You recant human theories technology causes.

Neither of which is about natural human life.

Hence if humans build a stone ark the pyramid with the boarding structure....didn't water be pumped up and around and flooded over the ark

To keep the human nuclear occult satanic star beast reactions safe inside their science building?

Yes. It was a taught thesis. Flooding was involved in the nuclear technology knowing earth stone pressures they applied were not true to earths base Rock natural dust pressures..

Knew.

So wood started to ignite burn proven by Russia's falling star hit!

Voices unnaturally heard AI speaking was involved as temples were using heavenly transmitters. Then temples blew ...
stone melted.

Meanwhile natural heavenly flooding began to counteract fallout caused.

Cloud images of human and animal ground life sacrificed emerged above mountain tip hit. Ararat. Ark eye UFO hit stone melt.

Clouds covered over scorched burnt face rock melting from gold technology...sin AI proof. Mountains began to disappear into dust disintegration piles.

Dust to dust caused by occult sciences whose pyramid casement ark blew off.

Was the teaching.

How you interpreted the legal summation of humans only prove you did not understand the assessment.

Mountains in many nations fell as the angels above in images in clouds were burnt.

Life was saved in all countries by flooding and new cloud amassing was the teaching. Human life nucleated lived mutated

Was the teaching.

Egypt's water shifted as science began in Egypt so they were the last place saved. Why humanity in that vicinity were the worst sacrificed.

Just as it said.

Stated the legal documentation.

 

[rational experiences]

Normally in Australia we get flooded once every ten years in various places or a hundred years.

This year the same place flooded three times. Is not natural.

Humans have been waiting for calamity from biblical terms. Humans own the scientific summations.

Men knew the human mind was changed by star falls return. After Russias hit suddenly nuclear themes were accepted again. It was your human pre warning.

Written so you would be advanced advised to argue why nuclear isn't acceptable. Which you ignored as you no longer read the legal version.

Dark ages star fall mind was our proof. The behaviour of human choice abomniable. The proof was not to believe how it was being retaught.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Formations like this do not refute the Flood....only Young Earth geology.

(If anything, the Flood helped “clean it up”, ie., remove the debris.)

These rock formations formed by meandering rivers, take eons... water cutting through rock is obviously a very slow process....so these structures began forming possibly millions of years before the Flood.

Debunking Young Earth geology concepts is not hard to do; that’s why deniers attempt to link the Flood with YEC ideas.

But they’re not related, at all.

 

[ppp]

View attachment 65379

Formations like this do not refute the Flood....only Young Earth geology.

(If anything, the Flood helped “clean it up”, ie., remove the debris.)

These rock formations formed by meandering rivers, take eons... water cutting through rock is obviously a very slow process....so these structures began forming possibly millions of years before the Flood.

Debunking Young Earth geology concepts is not hard to do; that’s why deniers attempt to link the Flood with YEC ideas.

But they’re not related, at all.

Not enough water molecules on the planet.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

View attachment 65379

Formations like this do not refute the Flood....only Young Earth geology.

(If anything, the Flood helped “clean it up”, ie., remove the debris.)

These rock formations formed by meandering rivers, take eons... water cutting through rock is obviously a very slow process....so these structures began forming possibly millions of years before the Flood.

Debunking Young Earth geology concepts is not hard to do; that’s why deniers attempt to link the Flood with YEC ideas.

But they’re not related, at all.

There is no evidence that the world was under a flood consistent with the descriptions in Genesis 4,000 years ago or any time in the last 20 million years. That you have to try and force obscure, dubious references about death festivals and fields of frozen carcasses as evidence should tell you something. The evidence for such a massive, global event should be like dandelions. Just about everywhere and obvious. No forcing required.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

There is no evidence that the world was under a flood consistent with the descriptions in Genesis 4,000 years ago or any time in the last 20 million years.

“Consistent with the descriptions in Genesis“? As opposed to other descriptions? What does that even mean?

That you have to try and force obscure, dubious references about death festivals and fields of frozen carcasses as evidence should tell you something.

I don’t “force” anything. You think such worldwide evidences including similarities between Flood legends, are just massive coincidences, I guess. And where science can’t explain other evidence including those “frozen carcasses” within the Permafrost — not in fields (as if they’re on top somewhere) — you just brush it off.

The evidence for such a massive, global event should be like dandelions. Just about everywhere and obvious. No forcing required.

Like what, for instance? Water didn’t cover the Earth for decades… it’s coverage only lasted less than a year.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

“Consistent with the descriptions in Genesis“? As opposed to other descriptions? What does that even mean?

If you do not understand, I doubt I can help you. It is pretty straight forward.

I don’t “force” anything. You think such worldwide evidences including similarities between Flood legends, are just massive coincidences, I guess. And where science can’t explain other evidence including those “frozen carcasses” within the Permafrost — not in fields (as if they’re on top somewhere) — you just brush it off.

Not all cultures have flood legends. Not all flood legends are the same. Where they are the same, there is clear evidence of cultural contamination or the same source for the stories.

Who says that science cannot explain finding remains of ancient fauna of different dates in an area where those animals were established to have existed in life? Trying to force this as flood evidence falls apart on even trivial examination.

Like what, for instance? Water didn’t cover the Earth for decades… it’s coverage only lasted less than a year.

A global flood layer that doesn't exist. A population bottleneck for all living things that dates to the same origin time. The lack of available water. The fact that 40 days of rain to that extent would cook the planet. The evidence of different parts of the world that don't show the presence of standing water, flooding or even rainfall for thousands of years. And on and on and on and on.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Who says that science cannot explain finding remains of ancient fauna of different dates in an area where those animals were established to have existed in life?

Well? I’m waiting for that answer……

(If science had an answer for those very unique discoveries, you’d have provided it.)

A global flood layer that doesn't exist.

Just what materials would it comprise? There’s no uniformity of soils worldwide. But the Grand Canyon, Horseshoe Bend, and other rocky structures, are free of the debris you’d expect to see. Like they’ve been cleaned up. Amazing!

The lack of available water.

.
I’ve dealt with this issue, many times. You don’t remember?

The fact that 40 days of rain to that extent would cook the planet.

“to that extent”? What extent? Much (most?) of the water came from “vast springs.”
Words with no references, are words with no meaning.
The vast atmosphere would dissipate any such “heat”.

The evidence of different parts of the world that don't show the presence of standing water, flooding or even rainfall for thousands of years.

Please identify those areas.

A population bottleneck for all living things that dates to the same origin time.

Finally, you present an argument that I can’t answer.

Is it a valid argument?

Do we understand all the facets of DNA? Definitely not.

One possible explanation, is, those animals in the Ark, that God brought to Noah from all parts of the Earth, may be species that went extinct afterwards, and their progeny that exist today, are different genetically, to a degree that would misalign test results?

I don’t know…but I’m gonna try to find an answer that fits.

 

[Sheldon]

Global Flood evidence:

***1.Vast herds of grazing animals, perhaps millions of them, discovered within the permafrost (called muck fields by some, due to the mud mixed in from previous melting), in the Alaskan and Yukon regions. In the Siberian permafrost, a few have been discovered upright, with food (some which only grows in temperate climates) discovered still unchewed in their mouths, like the Berezovka Mammoth. (They died instantly, not from a slow-moving ice age!)

http://www.amendez.com/Noahs Ark Articles/NAS Worldwide Mammal Massacre.pdf

The question is raised — and properly so: “How could a Global Flood cause such freezing temperatures?” Keep in mind, some of the water (not most...most were from the “vast springs” underneath the ground) came from above, from the atmosphere....the troposphere?...the mesosphere?...the stratosphere? The Bible doesn’t say, it is silent. (Maybe from all five.) But the waters existing above the Earth prior to the Flood, resulted in mild temperatures, and pleasantly warm.... similar to a greenhouse effect, worldwide. (That’s why Adam & Eve could go naked, and be very comfortable.) Yes, the Bible indicates there were seasons, but apparently mild ones.

All of that drastically changed, with the break in this vapor(?) / ice (?) canopy! Temperatures would drop suddenly!

***2.This project, completed by physics students of the University of Leicester, provides an interesting conclusion:
‘Noah’s Ark would have floated’.

And this one:
Could Noah’s Ark Float? In Theory, Yes | Science | Smithsonian

Further information:
Noah’s Ark was the focus of a major 1993 scientific study headed by Dr. Seon Hong at the world-class ship research center KRISO, based in Daejeon, South Korea. Dr. Hong’s team compared twelve hulls of different proportions to discover which design was most practical. No hull shape was found to significantly outperform the 4,300-year-old biblical design. In fact, the Ark’s careful balance is easily lost if the proportions are modified, rendering the vessel either unstable, prone to fracture, or dangerously uncomfortable.
The research team found that the proportions of Noah’s Ark carefully balanced the conflicting demands of stability (resistance to capsizing), comfort (“seakeeping”), and strength. In fact, the Ark has the same proportions as a modern cargo ship.


The study also confirmed that the Ark could handle waves as high as 100 ft (30 m). Dr. Hong is now director general of the facility and claims “life came from the sea,” obviously not the words of a creationist on a mission to promote the worldwide Flood. Endorsing the seaworthiness of Noah’s Ark obviously did not damage Dr. Hong’s credibility.

Dr. Seon Won Hong was principal research scientist when he headed up the Noah’s Ark investigation. In May 2005 Dr. Hong was appointed director general of MOERI (formerly KRISO). Dr. Hong earned a B.S. degree in naval architecture from Seoul National University and a Ph.D. degree in applied mechanics from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.

Thinking Outside the Box: Size and Shape of the Ark

***3.Coupled with that, the dimensions of the Ark, a 6-to-1 ratio of length to width, and 10-to-1 ratio of length to height, are exactly what is needed for a non-powered vessel of that size to maintain stability! Only in the last 2 centuries have ship builders recognized that these proportions are perfect for non-powered barge-like ships to be seaworthy. This is powerful evidence supporting a literal interpretation: How could Moses have known, in recording the event, that Noah was given such ideal dimensions? Fortunate guessing?

***4.The numerous Flood legends (exceeding 250, one anthropologist says near 1,000), that share many similarities, some strikingly so, that indicates a common source.



***5.Furthermore, the Bible indicates, in Psalms 104, that the Flood was the cause of Earth’s mountains reaching such great heights. (With the underground waters spewing upward, the land would, by necessity, settle downward.) This would mean the high mountainous ranges we have today, like the Alps, the Himalayas, the Andes, and others, did not exist before the Flood; they are relatively young in formation. Some were even underwater prior to the Flood — see #6. (Not that the rocks are young, but that the features they form, are new, geologically speaking. What do we see? We observe crisp, well-defined features! If these mountains were millions of years old, we would see weathered, rounded features, due to the extreme wind and other erosion forces that they constantly endure. But we don’t! (This evidence is the easiest of all the geological facts to see...yet to me the most overlooked.)

***6.[related to #5]The marine creatures discovered on the tops of many mountain ranges, even on Mt. Everest — gigantic clams, some measuring 5 feet or more across, found in the closed position, indicating (again) that these creatures experienced a catastrophic event, leading to their quick death. (Clams in natural death, die w/ their shells open.) All remain exposed....if they’re millions of years old, why aren’t they eroded, also? Because these particular ones died at the Flood!!

***7.Where did all the water go? Apparently, it’s still here, at the Earth. If we again take into account what Psalms 104 reveals — that it was the Flood that caused our current topography, the very high mountains and low valleys, then the Earth’s terrain was somewhat smoother than now. (And Genesis tells us, the highest mountain was covered by around 22 ft. of the water.) It’s been determined that if the Earth was smoothed out like a billiard ball, the present water in all the ocean and lake basins would cover the planet to a depth of 2.5 miles! More than enough.....yet, scientists have discovered even more water in the Earth’s mantle, estimated to be almost 10 times as much as exists on our surface! So, that presents no obstacle!

***8.The Chinese character for "boat" comprises three radically different symbols: 'vessel', 'mouth' (representing a person), and the number ''8”. Why is this significant? Because there were 8 people who survived the Flood in the Ark. Some ancient Semitic person thought the Flood Event was worthy enough, to incorporate it into their language, helping others to remember the Chinese word for boat. They didn't have a Bible to get the idea from, and I doubt Moses knew any Chinese people, to get his writing from!

Are you of the mindset that, when reading about God causing a global Flood, you don’t think He’d use His power throughout other aspects of the event? Or afterwards? Let’s see what the Genesis account reveals: He brought the waters above and below to Earth’s surface....He gave Noah instructions on building the Ark, providing those ideal proportions....He brought the animals to Noah (No, Noah didn’t have to go get them, as some dishonestly purport.)....and He closed the door. Only those w/ closed minds would assume (want to, maybe?) that God’s power stopped there. Is He somehow incapable of protecting the occupants in the Ark, or the plant life underneath the waters? Does Jehovah God have to reveal / explain every aspect involved? If He brought the animal to Noah, is it too much of a stretch to believe that Jehovah redistributed them to their former locations after the Flood?

Jehovah God is not required to explain anything more to us....what we do know, the evidence, is enough to build faith in the account.

Another indirect line of evidence, as to why God would cause such a catastrophe, are the Greek, Roman, Hindu, Norse, etc., myths describing “gods” interacting w/ humans, having relations w/ women, and producing offspring. (Since most all myths have some kernel of truth, this common narrative between them, of gods having sex w/ human females & bearing children, must be it.) It parallels Genesis 6:1-4, and explains to some extent why Jehovah had to step in, to thwart the eventual subjugation of the human race into sex slavery. But these “myths” created after the event, have kept it living in the collective mind of the human race.

The geological record demonstrates irrefutably, that no global flood has ever occurred.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Well? I’m waiting for that answer……

(If science had an answer for those very unique discoveries, you’d have provided it.)



Just what materials would it comprise? There’s no uniformity of soils worldwide. But the Grand Canyon, Horseshoe Bend, and other rocky structures, are free of the debris you’d expect to see. Like they’ve been cleaned up. Amazing!

.
I’ve dealt with this issue, many times. You don’t remember?


“to that extent”? What extent? Much (most?) of the water came from “vast springs.”
Words with no references, are words with no meaning.
The vast atmosphere would dissipate any such “heat”.

Please identify those areas.


Finally, you present an argument that I can’t answer.

Is it a valid argument?

Do we understand all the facets of DNA? Definitely not.

One possible explanation, is, those animals in the Ark, that God brought to Noah from all parts of the Earth, may be species that went extinct afterwards, and their progeny that exist today, are different genetically, to a degree that would misalign test results?

I don’t know…but I’m gonna try to find an answer that fits.

I had formulated an initial response, but I am foregoing that for the following.

I understand that you believe or want to believe that the stories in Genesis are literal retelling of events that took place. That is all well and good. It is your right and I support that.

But you are here to tell us that this is a controversy in science and a global flood occurred as described in Genesis. It is then, your responsibility in that case to explain your evidence and address scientific alternatives. Your speculation is not a fact. Your demand to shift the burden of proof is not a supporting position. Forcing obscure, dubious details does not support the claim of a global flood. That you believe and that others believe is not evidence leading to accept the conclusion that the flood occurred.

There is no controversy about the global flood in science. The controversy only exists with those that believe and wish to destroy positions based on evidence and theory. I have never seen this achieved. The best that can be done is to exploit the pro-Flood position on the uncertainty that exists in our understanding. It is a form of the "God of the gaps" argument. Uncertainty of the gaps. Because science does not work in absolutes, flood claims can remain alive on that uncertainty, at least for the believer.

I do not consider the flood described in Genesis to be an event that occurred as it is described. There is no evidence for a global flood and much that has not been properly addressed that says such a flood could not occur. Most of these issues have been raised in this and other threads and been ignored or waved off.

If you want to demonstrate that it did occur as described, you need more than speculation, dubious or obscure evidence that requires more speculation or logical fallacies like shifting the burden of proof. All that you have presented drags your claims and arguments down into the flood of irrationality and does not lift them up to a position where all can see and agree.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

God should ask Jean Grey how she protected a plane from a flood in X2.

To fall back to an answer with no support as the answer to a position that cannot be supported is apparently obvious to all except those doing just that.

Jean Grey! What a Marvel.

 

[F1fan]

I don’t “force” anything. You think such worldwide evidences including similarities between Flood legends, are just massive coincidences, I guess.

Floods are a common experience historically. Many settlements were set up next to rivers for the water, so at times these rivers flooded causing serious problems. Heck, my mom's house has suffered flooding over the years. Guess who had to help clean it up? So yeah I might complain about floods, just like ancient people did.

And where science can’t explain other evidence including those “frozen carcasses” within the Permafrost — not in fields (as if they’re on top somewhere) — you just brush it off.

There is no evidence of a global flood. And frozen carcasses don't suggest a global flood either.

Like what, for instance? Water didn’t cover the Earth for decades… it’s coverage only lasted less than a year.

According to a poor interpretation of a myth, not due to facts. The Genesis stories were written at a time when embellishment was common, but you ignore that? The Genesis myth was surely a retelling of Gilgamesh, and that was likely based on a real experience of an actual local flood. It might have been a farmer whose land flooded and he, his family, and few goats and chickens escaped on a raft, but then that was embellished to be a global flood because that sounds better. Yet modern people who have access to science still interpret literally? Even the Jews don't interpret it literally, and it's their book.

 

[Subduction Zone]

View attachment 65379

Formations like this do not refute the Flood....only Young Earth geology.

(If anything, the Flood helped “clean it up”, ie., remove the debris.)

These rock formations formed by meandering rivers, take eons... water cutting through rock is obviously a very slow process....so these structures began forming possibly millions of years before the Flood.

Debunking Young Earth geology concepts is not hard to do; that’s why deniers attempt to link the Flood with YEC ideas.

But they’re not related, at all.

Nope, your magic flood left no evidence. When it comes to erosion such a massive recent flood would have left massive evidence. When you admit those landforms are older than you flood you end up admitting that your flood did not happen.

And you are essentially a YEC. You have to deny the age of mountains, which can be dated in various ways. But since old mountains make your flood untenable. you have to deny their age, and that is a YEC belief.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well? I’m waiting for that answer……

(If science had an answer for those very unique discoveries, you’d have provided it.)

Nope, it does not work that way. You have no answers for anything, only unsupported hand waving. You cannot demand that others exceed your weak failures. Now something may not be understood. That is not evidence for a flood.. that only means that we do not understand something.

Just what materials would it comprise? There’s no uniformity of soils worldwide. But the Grand Canyon, Horseshoe Bend, and other rocky structures, are free of the debris you’d expect to see. Like they’ve been cleaned up. Amazing!

The flood predicts one single thin layer of fossils, of all sorts, mixed together. We do not see that. We do not see any worldwide fossil beds dating to the time of your magic boat.

.
I’ve dealt with this issue, many times. You don’t remember?

I can't say that I have. You never have come up with a rational evidence supported explanation, I know that. You have no evidence for any of your beliefs, it appears that we all know that as well.

“to that extent”? What extent? Much (most?) of the water came from “vast springs.”
Words with no references, are words with no meaning.
The vast atmosphere would dissipate any such “heat”.

And there you go claiming that there was no flood again. There are no such springs. There is no reason for their existence. And there is not enough groundwater in the crust to flood the Earth.

Please identify those areas.

The Antarctic for one In case you forgot, ice floats.

Finally, you present an argument that I can’t answer.

Is it a valid argument?

Do we understand all the facets of DNA? Definitely not.

One possible explanation, is, those animals in the Ark, that God brought to Noah from all parts of the Earth, may be species that went extinct afterwards, and their progeny that exist today, are different genetically, to a degree that would misalign test results?

I don’t know…but I’m gonna try to find an answer that fits.

Yes, it is a valid argument. Your extremely weak counter argument is akin to saying "We don't know everything about flight. Who is to say that if we slap a pair of wings on an elephant that it could not fly?" His argument was valid. Your counter argument is not.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The trigger was the fallen angels who mingled with the human women and thus begat giants called Nephilim. These giants were very violent….

I agree with this!
This event is where the ancient people, as descendants of Noah through his sons & their wives and spread out over all the Earth, got their common idea of ‘the gods sleeping with human women’, and fathering offspring like Heracles, Perseus, Asclepius, etc.

These offspring, referred to in the Bible as the Nephillim, were not “good guys” as usually portrayed in the Myths, though: Nephillim mean “fellers [of men]”.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Nephillim mean “fellers [of men]”.

It must wonderful be so gifted with certainty and yet willing to share such insights with all.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It must wonderful be so gifted with certainty and yet willing to share such insights with all.

Yes, it is wonderful! Thank you for those kind words.
(And I must say, You always display such an advanced level of sarcasm; did you earn a degree, or have you just gotten a lot of practice?)