Fooling atheists

[Bob the Unbeliever]

All I’m saying is if God exists and didn’t leave evidence,
Sherlock Holmes might come to the wrong conclusion and conclude God doesn’t exist!
So in this example, the universe has fooled Sherlock Holmes.
I’m not sure if God intended to fool Sherlock Holmes......
God isn’t obligated to leave evidence, if he exists.
I think the problem lies with Sherlock Holmes......
It’s in his nature to look for evidence.

Incorrect: IF this god absolutely DEMANDS special consideration from people.

If this god does not care one whit about humans? Then sure-- no evidence is fine.

But such an apathetic and indifferent god may as well not exist in the first place, for all that it would matter.

Much better for our collective mental health, if nobody pushes a god-agenda, and then gets all bent on killing anyone who disagrees.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I am fascinated by the demand for physical evidence of non-physical phenomena.

If there is any other kind of evidence than physical, the theist is free to introduce that as well. If there is no evidence that isn't physical, then the skeptic can dismiss the claim that gods exist, since the claimant would have no way of knowing that there are gods even if that were the case.

 

[David T]

Has the universe fooled atheists into thinking there is no God?
Or can’t atheists be fooled?

What do you mean by God exactly? Try answering that without a book or religion.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Has the universe fooled atheists into thinking there is no God?
Or can’t atheists be fooled?

Have theists fooled themselves into thinking that a god(s) exists? Clearly at least some of them can be fooled, because they can't all be right. Why can't it be all of them who are fooling themselves?

 

[Cockadoodledoo]

What do you mean by God exactly? Try answering that without a book or religion.

I am assuming God may be a being, who, amongst other things, may be responsible for the existence of the Universe.

Edit: To clarify

 

[Cockadoodledoo]

Have theists fooled themselves into thinking that a god(s) exists? Clearly at least some of them can be fooled, because they can't all be right. Why can't it be all of them who are fooling themselves?

I agree.......the theists could be the ones fooling themselves.
No one has evidence for God,
So it could go either way.
And we may never be any wiser.

 

[Cockadoodledoo]

Let’s say something miraculous happens to you....
How do you know it’s not
1. A coincidence
2. Mental illness
3. A natural functioning of the brain, something out of the ordinary
4. A highly advanced alien race doing something to you
5. God or one of his angels
6. Another human in the present or future playing with your mind, maybe with technology

So, certainty in either God or no God is, in my opinion, not possible

Even if you die and get to the pearly gates,
How do you know they weren’t created by
1. God
2. Aliens
3. Humans in the future
4. A product of the dying brain

Will we have to rely on the explanation of others who have passed over?
This may be ok if all have reached a common consensus that’s believable.
But we’ll probably have to wait for that when the time comes.
In the meantime, we can
1. Continue scientific investigation and hope to reap the rewards when we die, ie immortality
2. Depend on the aliens who hopefully will share their scientific abilities
3. Not even try which may result in no possibility of an afterlife

 

[Subduction Zone]

Let’s say something miraculous happens to you....
How do you know it’s not
1. A coincidence
2. Mental illness
3. A natural functioning of the brain, something out of the ordinary
4. A highly advanced alien race doing something to you
5. God or one of his angels
6. Another human in the present or future playing with your mind, maybe with technology

So, certainty in either God or no God is, in my opinion, not possible

Even if you die and get to the pearly gates,
How do you know they weren’t created by
1. God
2. Aliens
3. Humans in the future
4. A product of the dying brain

Will we have to rely on the explanation of others who have passed over?
This may be ok if all have reached a common consensus that’s believable.
But we’ll probably have to wait for that when the time comes.
In the meantime, we can
1. Continue scientific investigation and hope to reap the rewards when we die, ie immortality
2. Depend on the aliens who hopefully will share their scientific abilities
3. Not even try which may result in no possibility of an afterlife

The only correct answer to such a vague question is:

I don't know.

 

[David T]

I am assuming God is he who is responsible for the existence of the Universe.

You have a rather small view of the universe and of god!!! Science and religious Reductionism is that reduction to shrink reality the fit the human brains intellectualizing region ..seems like a shared internal.problem.by a particular group of people. Not unlike church btw..

maybe a group hug and.long.walks in nature might be a healthy cure. Although I am sure gunfire would eventually break out.

 

[Cockadoodledoo]

I am assuming God is he who is responsible for the existence of the Universe.

I should of said
I am assuming God may be a being who, amongst other things, may be responsible for the existence of the Universe.

 

[Trailblazer]

But what would be the implications to a human life on Earth at any given moment? Since we cannot discern ANY such implications/differences, can't know for sure what God does do and what He doesn't do, what He had a hand in and what He didn't, I would argue that there is no difference between scenario 1 and scenario 2. That "God exists" becomes entirely irrelevant in scenario 1. The fact that you really only have this one point of difference to make should make one stop and think. And no, the addition of the smiley face does not add to the strength of your position.

What I meant is that we cannot SEE GOD or know what God is DOING, given the Essence of God is hidden.

Nevertheless, we can know a lot about God’s Will for humanity in every age of human history. Baha’is believe that the Manifestations of God (also referred to as Messengers of God or Prophets) reveal the Will of God in every age; so whatever they say/write is identical with the Will of God. Obviously, if this is true, the implications are HUGE.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

There is one huge, fantastic, glaring reason why it very much DOES matter if God is in hiding. And that is that we get no feedback (except the reaction of our fellow humans, or the discomfort of our own feelings of guilt/empathy) when we do something "wrong" or "against the rules." This is huge. If I gave my kids a list of rules to follow, and then when they broke those rules I did nothing, what would you think? And EVEN WORSE - if instead I DID punish them, but never let them know that what I was doing was punishment or even what they were being punished for, how would that look to you? Anything on Earth you can point to as punishment being doled out by God for anything anyone has done cannot truly be directly linked to the crime/sin, because we are never told explicitly that that's what's happening. Not to mention that sometimes the "bad guys" get away with the exact same crimes that others are "punished" for all the time. What would you think of me as a parent if I only ever punished one of my two children, but let the other get away with the SAME broken rules without punishment? This is exactly how people purport that God operates. "God works in mysterious ways" is a load of crap. He operates in completely inadequate, negligent ways. In fact... it's almost like he's not even there.

First, let me say this: There is no way to know IF or HOW God “works” in this world. The ONLY thing we can ever know that God did was send messengers who revealed scriptures. This is the way God intervenes in human affairs. It is possible God does other things, like answer prayers on a case-by-case basis, but there is no way we can possibly ever know if or when.

You raise some excellent points and I wonder about the same things... How do we know that people will be punished adequately? As we know, in this world justice is not always doled out as it should be because the justice system is imperfect. So how do we know if God will reward and punish people appropriately in this world or in the afterlife?

If we are a believer we have faith that God is just and merciful so God will handle these situations appropriately, BETTER than we ever could, since God is All-Knowing and All-Wise whereas no human is either of those.

We do not have the details but it is not completely mysterious since we are given some answers to these questions in the Writings of Baha’u’llah. For one example:

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

Please note that ”those who live in error” does not refer to nonbelievers; they could be believers or nonbelievers. They are people who committed heinous acts.

Nor does that passage indicate that God will be the one who does the punishing. The punishment might simply be realizing what one has done or not done in their life, because that realization will be inescapable in the next life.

We are not going to know the specifics of what will happen to everyone who does evil deeds because only God knows that. Heck, we cannot even be sure what our own end will be. All we can do is live life to the best of our ability and I think the most important thing is how we treat other people. Jesus said to treat your brother as yourself, but Baha’u’llah raised the standard and said to prefer your brother to yourself. He also said that courtesy is the Prince of Virtues; so if we live life this way, whether we are a believer or a nonbeliever that is the best we can do.

Who says God is supposed to be a mystery? Is that a pre-requisite of being a God? That no one can know whether or not you actually exist? Sounds like a good pre-requisite for a "myth."

Yes it is a prerequisite for being God. Only God knows God's Essence. Not even the messengers know that.

“I am moved to testify that Thy court of holiness and glory is immeasurably exalted above the knowledge of all else besides Thee, and the mystery of Thy Presence is inscrutable to every mind except Thine own. No one except Thyself can unravel the secret of Thy nature, and naught else but Thy transcendental Essence can grasp the reality of Thy unsearchable being. How vast the number of those heavenly and all-glorious beings who, in the wilderness of their separation from Thee, have wandered all the days of their lives, and failed in the end to find Thee! How great the multitude of the sanctified and immortal souls who were lost and bewildered while seeking in the desert of search to behold Thy face!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 64

But just because we cannot know the Essence of God (God’s intrinsic nature) does not mean we cannot know that God exists. Not ALL of God is a mystery; only God’s Essence is a Mystery. We can KNOW God’s Attributes and God’s Will through what the Messengers of God reflect and reveal about God.

Also - what about God "revealing" himself to people of times past? Why do we not all get the same chance? Did he "love" those people more? How can the case be made otherwise? I know how you would feel if your father had multiple children, and only ever interacted with your siblings but NEVER ONCE with you, personally. Is that "love?" Nope... that's garbage.

God did reveal Himself in this age, to Baha’u’llah. God does not reveal Himself to anyone except His chosen Messengers and through them we can know (a) everything we need to know and (b) everything we are capable of understanding about God. This has been God’s Method of revealing Himself from the dawn of human history.

Your next question might be WHY God does not reveal Himself to everyone, why just to one messenger? Well, there are other reasons I won’t mention right now, but one reason is that no ordinary human being is capable of receiving direct communication from God. A messenger of God is not an ordinary human being. He is a subtle, mysterious and ethereal Being that has been assigned by God a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. His body is human but His Soul was not conceived at conception like ours, but was rather pre-existent. In that preexistence His Soul was given the capacity to receive direct revelations from God. Although the Messenger had to translate that Revelation into a form we could understand, His Words are endowed with an invisible spiritual force.

Funny how God would inspire people to write that God is a mystery, and transcends what we can know, or should know, etc. Isn't that so very convenient? Convenient for those who inform you what you should believe, but know they can't back it up with verifiable reasons WHY you should believe it.

There are a lot of reasons WHY we should believe it but we all have to search out those reasons and verify them for ourselves. The first principle inculcated by Baha’u’llah was independent investigation of truth.

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

 

[Trailblazer]

Have theists fooled themselves into thinking that a god(s) exists? Clearly at least some of them can be fooled, because they can't all be right.

Why can't we all be right?

Why can't it be all of them who are fooling themselves?

That is also a possibility, since nobody can prove that God exists.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why can't we all be right?

Since they contradict each other. Law of the excluded middle if you want the logical law that tells us that.

That is also a possibility, since nobody can prove that God exists.

Yep. As the saying goes "They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong."

 

[Trailblazer]

But meanwhile perhaps this is the test: if God has objective existence, then God can be shown to us, a satisfactory demonstration whether in person or by TV or by scientific instruments.

This would so quickly get rid of so much unbelief that really, it's extremely odd that no one has done it, isn't doing it every day.

An omnipotent God could do that but God does not do that because God does not want to do that....
An omnipotent God only does what it wants to do, not what we want it to do.

One reason God does not do that is because God does not need anyone's belief:

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

The other reason God does not do that is because God wants us to use our own innate powers of reasoning to determine if He exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

Since they contradict each other. Law of the excluded middle if you want the logical law that tells us that.

Not all people can be right regarding their conceptions of God, but they can all be right that God EXISTS.

Yep. As the saying goes "They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong."

True, either theists or atheists can all be wrong.
Only God knows, if God exists.

BTW, I changed my shade of red so it is not as flashy... thanks for the tip.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not all people can be right regarding their conceptions of God, but they can all be right that God EXISTS.

But that is not what they believe. They believe that a specific God exists.

True, either theists or atheists can all be wrong.
Only God knows, if God exists.

BTW, I changed my shade of red so it is not as flashy... thanks for the tip.

I don't think that was me that told you to change the color of your red. But nice. And atheists do not as a rule say that god does not exist. They simply do not believe in one due to lack of evidence. There is a very important difference there. People that say "so and so is true" tend to have a vested interest in that statement and will often keep believing it after being shown to be wrong. Atheists say (in general) that they do not believe because there is no reliable evidence are at least keeping the door open. All that you need is reliable evidence if you want to convince most atheists.

 

[Trailblazer]

But that is not what they believe. They believe that a specific God exists.

I know...
They are all wrong about that because we cannot know the specifics.

I don't think that was me that told you to change the color of your red. But nice.

No, you did not tell me to change it, you said something about a flashy red car and then I realized it looked flashy

And atheists do not as a rule say that god does not exist. They simply do not believe in one due to lack of evidence. There is a very important difference there. People that say "so and so is true" tend to have a vested interest in that statement and will often keep believing it after being shown to be wrong. Atheists say (in general) that they do not believe because there is no reliable evidence are at least keeping the door open. All that you need is reliable evidence if you want to convince most atheists.

That is what I told this atheist I have been conversing with for years on some other forums -- that the reason most atheists do not believe in god is because they lack the necessary evidence -- and he got mad at me and said I was making a straw man to argue against. I was not even MAKING an argument... I told him I know that atheists have OTHER reasons for NOT believing in god, such as the suffering they see in the world; but lack of evidence is the primary reason.

He keeps saying I am misrepresenting atheists' positions, but I told him I probably spend more time talking to atheists than he has spent in his entire lifetime. I invited him to come to this forum so he can see what other atheists think but he is kind of stuck in a rut since he has only ever posted on those other forums for many, many years. He is a strange one to figure out because he just seems to want to make everything into an argument, and after all these years I still do not know him personally.

Yet these are three other atheists I have been conversing with regularly on those forums for years and I know all them all personally, even have their e-mails, go figure. They are all cool cat lovers.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I know...
They are all wrong about that because we cannot know the specifics.

No, you did not tell me to change it, you said something about a flashy red car and then I realized it looked flashy

That is what I told this atheist I have been conversing with for years on some other forums -- that the reason most atheists do not believe in god is because they lack the necessary evidence -- and he got mad at me and said I was making a straw man to argue against. I was not even MAKING an argument... I told him I know that atheists have OTHER reasons for NOT believing in god, such as the suffering they see in the world; but lack of evidence is the primary reason.

He keeps saying I am misrepresenting atheists' positions, but I told him I probably spend more time talking to atheists than he has spent in his entire lifetime. I invited him to come to this forum so he can see what other atheists think but he is kind of stuck in a rut since he has only ever posted on those other forums for many, many years. He is a strange one to figure out because he just seems to want to make everything into an argument, and after all these years I still do not know him personally.

Yet these are three other atheists I have been conversing with regularly on those forums for years and I know all them all personally, even have their e-mails, go figure. They are all cool cat lovers.

You can't judge all by one. If that was the case I would have a very low opinion of Christians and Muslims.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can't judge all by one. If that was the case I would have a very low opinion of Christians and Muslims.

No, I do not judge my atheist friend. I consider him a friend even if he does not consider me a friend.
He is just kind of an enigma.

No two atheists are alike any more than any two beleivers are alike. We are all unique and our differences should be appreciated. That is an important Baha'i principle, but I see you figured it out on your own.

BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

 

[blü 2]

An omnipotent God could do that but God does not do that because God does not want to do that....

We have no basis for such a conclusion, do we? Perhaps for the very reason that God (for some deeply obscure reason) conceals [him]self, but more likely, more consistently, for a God said to want us to acknowledge [him], because [he] exists only in the imagination of individual people. We don't even have a satisfactory definition of a real god such that we could tell whether any candidate were a god or not, only a range of 'definitions' of imaginary ones ─ please correct me if that's wrong.

One reason God does not do that is because God does not need anyone's belief:

Does that equate to God not wanting anyone's belief?

The other reason God does not do that is because God wants us to use our own innate powers of reasoning to determine if He exists.

I do, and the more I do, the less [he] does. I'm not a non-believer because I don't want God / a god / gods to exist. I'm a non-believer for a variety of reasons, but foremost because I think the concept of a real god is incoherent without that satisfactory definition.