For atheists

[thau]

What I asked was not a hypothetical. Your god purposely creates a world were great suffering exists and is supposed to be considered a hero after he stops the suffering he caused to happen in the first place? That's who you think is morally suited to pass judgment on others? That makes as much sense as making an arsonist the fire chief and congratulating him on all the fires he puts out after he started them? Next you'll argue that whatever suffering I perceive in the world is not gods fault but my own as well as the rest of humanity, which is utter garbage. A human parent not being held liable for a bad decision one of their children made is logical. A creator god that created everything, not being held liable for the bad decisions of its creations whose very nature it purposely created down to the tiniest bit of our DNA is not logical. The Christian god is so laughably flawed and ridiculous that I could never entertain its existence.

I did not say your comments were hypothetical, I said my question to you was, which you chose not answer.

Yes, I understand your logic or your position on this. Fine if you think that either disproves the God of the Bible's existence or if it justifies you to reject His word. For myself, I see far too much evidence to pretend otherwise.

I will leave you with this (from an earlier thread) which may not do much for you, but I think it has merit.

A marriage is arranged between you and the most adorable girl, one who is kind and delightful beyond all measure. But she is forced to be your bride, she is given no choice in the matter. Similarly, in a second scenario, this same girl by chance finds you along the path of life and instead of being obliged to be your bride, instead falls in love with you and desires you for herself. She makes many efforts to please you and willfully suffers for you, fails often but seeks forgiveness. Which of these two would give you the greater joy? Perhaps when God said He created us in His own image that is partially what He was referring to? He, too, prefers one who chooses to love Him and sacrifice for Him and take risks, as opposed to creating a being incapable of making free will choices to want to love Him. As given in Scripture, Our Lord says man is higher than the angels for this very reason of free will. Our earthly trials merit these greater virtues and are more pleasing to God.

Life is a trial, a test, a means to an end. There is no honor if it requires no effort and no faith on our part. If that were the case, God may as well have just bypassed humanity and earth and made us all like angels incapable of sinning but also no valor in our beings. God allows suffering and evil to bring out a greater good in us. Another saint explained God also allows the suffering of the innocents to atone for the souls of great sinners. It will only be revealed how it all worked together in the hereafter. We are called upon to carry our cross and share in the sufferings Jesus bore for us.

 

[JustWondering]

A marriage is arranged between you and the most adorable girl, one who is kind and delightful beyond all measure. But she is forced to be your bride, she is given no choice in the matter. Similarly, in a second scenario, this same girl by chance finds you along the path of life and instead of being obliged to be your bride, instead falls in love with you and desires you for herself. She makes many efforts to please you and willfully suffers for you, fails often but seeks forgiveness. Which of these two would give you the greater joy? Perhaps when God said He created us in His own image that is partially what He was referring to? He, too, prefers one who chooses to love Him and sacrifice for Him and take risks, as opposed to creating a being incapable of making free will choices to want to love Him. As given in Scripture, Our Lord says man is higher than the angels for this very reason of free will. Our earthly trials merit these greater virtues and are more pleasing to God.

The first problem with your little analogy is that god is not a physically existing person with whom I can interact with. Kind of hard to have any relationship with an imaginary character. Second problem is that the god of the bible is going to throw those who don't please him into a fiery hell to be tortured. You failed to include the torture part into your analogy. Third, there is no reference to free will being considered a virtuous trait in the bible. There are many references that show mindless obedience to be a highly virtuous trait and even examples of god taking peoples "free will" away from them. Fourth, using pain to get the desired behavior out of someone sounds more like the training of a pet then a companion or friend. What lowly creatures the angels must be then, huh?

It will only be revealed how it all worked together in the hereafter.

How convenient.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I really liked the video. I also can say it works the other way around. You have the athiest: 1 that believes in evolution 2 a convert 3 awaken to his non belief 4 critize religion 5 abrahamic obessivist. 6 spiritual atheist All arguing among each other about the Abrahamic deity and science while one theist (human?) says "hey now wait a minute. There is only One truth." And she is right there is one . (2 and 2) Why do we "all" make it so contradictory who knows.

I believe in God, but I also recognize that we, believers, sometimes can be really stupid.

This video is brilliant and I wanted to share it mostly with atheists but also with believers so we can all see our own reflection and think about our own behavior.

 

[thau]

The first problem with your little analogy is that god is not a physically existing person with whom I can interact with. Kind of hard to have any relationship with an imaginary character. Second problem is that the god of the bible is going to throw those who don't please him into a fiery hell to be tortured. You failed to include the torture part into your analogy. Third, there is no reference to free will being considered a virtuous trait in the bible. There are many references that show mindless obedience to be a highly virtuous trait and even examples of god taking peoples "free will" away from them. Fourth, using pain to get the desired behavior out of someone sounds more like the training of a pet then a companion or friend. What lowly creatures the angels must be then, huh?



How convenient.

The first problem with your little analogy is that god is not a physically existing person with whom I can interact with. Kind of hard to have any relationship with an imaginary character.

First, I do not see that as a problem in the least. Second, if you are going to not let the existence of God be a premise for delving further into the faith and claims then you are rendering any exchange as pointless.


Second problem is that the god of the bible is going to throw those who don't please him into a fiery hell to be tortured. You failed to include the torture part into your analogy.

Here is one your problems. You are filled with ideas and information you have no way of knowing is true. Is this why you reject the obvious supernatural manifestations that your ways of trying to explain them away look sadly desperate?... because you don’t like the “hell thing?” Who is in hell? Who goes to hell? You have no idea whatsoever and yet you hold that against God. Here is a tip: Quit listening to protestant voices on the internet and maybe you won’t be lead so far astray. Never once has the Catholic Church ever said any one person is in hell, and nor has it ever said what it takes to end up there.


Third, there is no reference to free will being considered a virtuous trait in the bible. There are many references that show mindless obedience to be a highly virtuous trait and even examples of god taking peoples "free will" away from them.

This sounds utterly inane to me. How many strawmen can you concoct in one paragraph? Did God take away your free will? Or is it in heaven it is taken away? Again, who is convincing you of that?


Fourth, using pain to get the desired behavior out of someone sounds more like the training of a pet then a companion or friend. What lowly creatures the angels must be then, huh?

The Virgin Mary told an Ecuadorian visionary these words: “Pride is the cancer of the soul.” Take it to heart. You think you are on level plane matching wits with God. You demand God reveal everything to you before you will concede anything to Him. What do you or I really know about angels? How brazen of you to tell us how worthless they are because they have not been given what God has given to man. This is the clutter one has to bear in trying to have a reasonable exchange on theology. And of course, you and so many others demand God explain Himself in absolute terms how He can allow suffering! And if He does not… then damn be to you God. All because of man’s foolish pride.


"You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because, in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." — Walker Percy (1916-1990), American Catholic convert and author of “Lost in the Cosmos.”

 

[JustWondering]

First, I do not see that as a problem in the least. Second, if you are going to not let the existence of God be a premise for delving further into the faith and claims then you are rendering any exchange as pointless.

Of course you don't see it as a problem because you have already bought into your religion. You're a true believer. I on the other hand am not a believer. You will need more than unsubstantiated claims to sell me on your beliefs. Try using well reasoned arguments and evidence.

Here is one your problems. You are filled with ideas and information you have no way of knowing is true. Is this why you reject the obvious supernatural manifestations that your ways of trying to explain them away look sadly desperate?... because you don’t like the “hell thing?” Who is in hell? Who goes to hell? You have no idea whatsoever and yet you hold that against God. Here is a tip: Quit listening to protestant voices on the internet and maybe you won’t be lead so far astray. Never once has the Catholic Church ever said any one person is in hell, and nor has it ever said what it takes to end up there.

Um...the hell thing is in the bible. Jesus taught about hell. Maybe you should try reading your holy book sometime.

This sounds utterly inane to me. How many strawmen can you concoct in one paragraph? Did God take away your free will? Or is it in heaven it is taken away? Again, who is convincing you of that?

Again, it's all in the bible, your holy book. Perhaps you should read it sometime.

The Virgin Mary told an Ecuadorian visionary these words: “Pride is the cancer of the soul.” Take it to heart.

You demand that I mindlessly except your unsubstantiated claims about your religion and I am prideful?!

You think you are on level plane matching wits with God. You demand God reveal everything to you before you will concede anything to Him.

Since I don't believe your god concept exists than your god concept would have to reveal its existence to me in order for me to believe it exists. I'm an atheist, remember?

What do you or I really know about angels? How brazen of you to tell us how worthless they are because they have not been given what God has given to man.

If it makes you feel any better I think an angel is worth at least two leprechauns.

This is the clutter one has to bear in trying to have a reasonable exchange on theology. And of course, you and so many others demand God explain Himself in absolute terms how He can allow suffering! And if He does not… then damn be to you God. All because of man’s foolish pride.

I'm sorry your unable to see the disconnect your beliefs have with reason and reality.

 

[JustWondering]

Never once has the Catholic Church ever said any one person is in hell, and nor has it ever said what it takes to end up there.

Has hell frozen over? | USCatholic.org

The Hell There Is! | Catholic Answers

Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in life everlasting

 

[thau]

Has hell frozen over? | USCatholic.org

The Hell There Is! | Catholic Answers

Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in life everlasting

FYI.

If there is some key passages in those links you cited for me that speaks where the Catholic Church has said a certain individual is in hell or are saying they should be sent to hell, could you extract that for me? The fact is, I fell and cracked a rib this morning (I'm not that old) and am so incapacitated I cannot sit at the computer in my home hardly at all. I only say that just in case you might think I am cowering away from a challenge.

 

[JustWondering]

FYI.

If there is some key passages in those links you cited for me that speaks where the Catholic Church has said a certain individual is in hell or are saying they should be sent to hell, could you extract that for me? The fact is, I fell and cracked a rib this morning (I'm not that old) and am so incapacitated I cannot sit at the computer in my home hardly at all. I only say that just in case you might think I am cowering away from a challenge.

Just examples showing the catholic church has used hell to scare people into line. As for the catholic church officially proclaiming that certain people have gone to hell, I'm not aware of that. Regardless of what the catholic church claims, the bible is clear on the subject of hell. My confusion is with most modern Christians perception of god being good, loving, and forgiving conflicting with the god of the bible sending people to a fiery torture realm for all eternity. The god most Christians seem to worship doesn't seem to be the one described in the bible. You know, the one who likes mass murder and torture?

 

[thau]

Just examples showing the catholic church has used hell to scare people into line.

What do you mean "has used it?" The Church is merely teaching what Jesus instructed us to teach. We are not "using" hell's reality for ulterior motives. Yes, hell is real. So is the final judgment. Mathew 25:31-46 addresses that in spades. A good parent teaches their children of the bad in the world and the consequences of bad judgments as well. They do not shield them for fear of upsetting their delicate psyches.

As for the catholic church officially proclaiming that certain people have gone to hell, I'm not aware of that.

Well for me that is a most crucial point, imo. Too many pagans and too many protestants telling anyone who will listen who goes to hell, who is in hell, or what it takes to get there. They are all committing egregious acts of usurping God's judgment. The fact is, they do not know! And as you can see, it has emboldened your disgust with the Christian faith and has emboldened the braggart Christian to bring scandal upon himself. I could supply with passages from the New Testament that supports my charges against all those, and also quotes from the Catholic Church councils that do the same.

Regardless of what the catholic church claims, the bible is clear on the subject of hell. My confusion is with most modern Christians perception of god being good, loving, and forgiving conflicting with the god of the bible sending people to a fiery torture realm for all eternity. The god most Christians seem to worship doesn't seem to be the one described in the bible. You know, the one who likes mass murder and torture?

Yes, I hear you. Which is why I make the charge against those of such ilk that they are not being genuine in declaring there is no sound evidence for the Judeo-Christian G-d. The miracles I have documented are swept away with the most flimsiest of counter explanations. It is borderline dishonest because I cannot believe some of these people actually believe what they are saying, such as how Fatima could have been a solar flare or mass hallucination. (sigh)

I lead with that statement to make this one: Too many atheists and heathens of intelligent mark will not concede what is apparent to the reality of God. Instead they demand satisfactory answers to how can there be a hell or why does God allow suffering before they will acknowledge that which has been revealed.

No man can tell you why there has to be a hell, but I did make a recent post about why C.S. Lewis said there had to be a hell, and then I followed up with a challenge to the denier as to what would he choose? The question also asks if God gives you such an "out" would He still be unfair in your mind? The only poster to answer that question is Nulliusinverba, but I link it to you here just to give my answer why I can accept a hell, even if I am not sure of its nature.

With suffering and hell, how can God be thought of as fair or kind. | ReligiousForums.com

 

[JustWondering]

What do you mean "has used it?" The Church is merely teaching what Jesus instructed us to teach. We are not "using" hell's reality for ulterior motives. Yes, hell is real. So is the final judgment. Mathew 25:31-46 addresses that in spades. A good parent teaches their children of the bad in the world and the consequences of bad judgments as well. They do not shield them for fear of upsetting their delicate psyches.

Well for me that is a most crucial point, imo. Too many pagans and too many protestants telling anyone who will listen who goes to hell, who is in hell, or what it takes to get there. They are all committing egregious acts of usurping God's judgment. The fact is, they do not know! And as you can see, it has emboldened your disgust with the Christian faith and has emboldened the braggart Christian to bring scandal upon himself. I could supply with passages from the New Testament that supports my charges against all those, and also quotes from the Catholic Church councils that do the same.

Yes, I hear you. Which is why I make the charge against those of such ilk that they are not being genuine in declaring there is no sound evidence for the Judeo-Christian G-d. The miracles I have documented are swept away with the most flimsiest of counter explanations. It is borderline dishonest because I cannot believe some of these people actually believe what they are saying, such as how Fatima could have been a solar flare or mass hallucination. (sigh)

I lead with that statement to make this one: Too many atheists and heathens of intelligent mark will not concede what is apparent to the reality of God. Instead they demand satisfactory answers to how can there be a hell or why does God allow suffering before they will acknowledge that which has been revealed.

No man can tell you why there has to be a hell, but I did make a recent post about why C.S. Lewis said there had to be a hell, and then I followed up with a challenge to the denier as to what would he choose? The question also asks if God gives you such an "out" would He still be unfair in your mind? The only poster to answer that question is Nulliusinverba, but I link it to you here just to give my answer why I can accept a hell, even if I am not sure of its nature.

With suffering and hell, how can God be thought of as fair or kind. | ReligiousForums.com

Wondering about our origins and if death truly is the end is natural. These questions have led to the creation and belief in multiple supernatural beings and forces over the centuries. The Christian faith is just ONE of these supernatural belief systems. When I compare the claims of the Christian faith against reality, the Christian faith doesn't mesh with reality or stand up when logically scrutinized. Also, the existence of anything supernatural has never been shown to exist in any way. I do not deny the Christian god because of hell because neither the Christian god or hell has been proven to exist or even convincingly argued to exist. The god you worship is something superstitious men created thousands of years ago. I feel no more compelled to believe in your gods existence than the existence of any other gods worshipped thousands of years ago. Your insistence on hell being real holds as much weight as any Hindu saying reincarnation has to be real. I'm sure you would insist on some form of evidence before even entertaining the notion of reincarnation. I'd wager any and all Hindu "miracles" and evidence would be swept away by you with the flimsiest of counter explanations. I'd wager that as a true believer you are even more biased, closed minded, and resistant to considering the ideas and claims or other religions than ANY atheist. Yet, when atheist's don't eagerly buy into what you are trying to sell we're deemed stubborn and dense. I used to be a Christian once but my mind isn't wired to mindlessly accept whatever someone tries to spoon feed it. I read the bible for myself without someone whispering apologetics into my ear while I did so and came to the conclusion that the Christian faith is just another man made belief system founded in superstition and wishful thinking. I'm going to take a look at your link now. I'll let you know if I find anything new or interesting in it.