For Chrisitans Only: Matthew 5:38-39

[Colt]

I'm curious. So, was it just the Jews who had Jesus put to death, or other Jews who just didn't agree with the Hebrew scripture interpretation of Jesus and his disciples?

The Sanhedrin found Jesus guilty by majority vote. At the time it would require at least 23 Judges in the Sanhedrin to find guilt for the death penalty. Then we had Pilate hoping the mob would spare Jesus but there was that strange hatred for Jesus in the crowd that chose to free Barabas instead. So it is true, "he went to his own but his own did not receive him. Going forward Christianity was a tiny cult inside Jerusalem for a long time. Judaism thoroughly rejected Jesus. As predicted the light went West to a more receptive audience.

 

[metis]

Do you think He intended the formation of a 'new' religion, or was the intent to renew His own?

I think the latter, namely to reform Judaism along his lines.

 

[metis]

The Jews who had Jesus put to death for his religion disagree with you.

See my post above.

 

[metis]

The Jews who had Jesus put to death for his religion disagree with you.

His religion was clearly Judaism, so what we see in the Gospels is basically a "family feud", and they can all so often be the worst. The main issue at stake was dealing with Jewish Law: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ) .

 

[MixedMartialArts]

This thread is for Christians only. What exactly is meant by Matthew 5:38-39?



click here: Matthew 5:38-39 NIV - Eye for Eye - “You have heard that it - Bible Gateway

It simply means don’t be so fast at retaliation.
It doesn’t mean don’t defend yourself, as evidence in another verse that says “by all means “try” to live peaceably among men”

It probably just means a temperate patient, godly person can control their temper and actions. And that is no easy task.

The goal is to find peace.

but as someone once said:

“always aim for peace, but when peace isn’t possible aim between the eyes”

 

[BilliardsBall]

I see. Well, I'm curious about something. As one who calls himself a Messianic Jewish Christian, could you explain to me what would be your objections to @Ehav4Ever's POV concerning his interpretation of the Torah and the eye for an eye laws? Along with any other objections?

I didn't say I object to it.

Most scholars I've seen on the issue understand the "lex talionis" as a limiter or maximum--eye for an eye rather than a vendetta "I'll wipe away your family!"

 

[metis]

Most scholars I've seen on the issue understand the "lex talionis" as a limiter or maximum--eye for an eye rather than a vendetta "I'll wipe away your family!"

I concur.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well, what made me curious about these verses was based upon my reaction to a video by @Ehav4Ever in post #258 in another thread where it seems like the meaning that Jesus is giving to the eye for an eye verse is different from what the Jewish meaning of it is. Therefore, trying to figure why Jesus conveyed the meaning of that verse as being about vengeance and is giving the readers the wrong impression about that verse.

Equal justice was the Jewish meaning: Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Jews who had Jesus put to death for his religion disagree with you.

Those un-faithful Jews had Jesus put to death on the grounds of: sedition, treason, injured majesty.
They used the Romans to do their dirty work.
Jesus was exposing those false religious leaders so they used the political to do their dirty work . Matthew chapter 23

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I agree. The Twelve are sent only to Israel. This saying may reflect an original Jewish Christian refusal of the mission to the Gentiles, but for Matthew it expresses rather the limitation that Jesus himself observed during his ministry. Mt10:5-6
He said in reply, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 15:24

Yes, the Jews were given the first opportunity - Luke 4:43
But please notice what Jesus later said at Acts of the Apostles 1:8.
That is in harmony with Jesus' words found at Matthew 28:19.
Plus, in harmony with Jesus' international instructions found at Matthew 24:14

 

[URAVIP2ME]

........................A tree can live for a long time, but then it has to be replaced by a seed. No system can do better than that...so far.

.... and in the Bible I find the promised 'seed' proves to be Jesus.
Jesus also as the coming ' stone ' of God's Kingdom, Jesus being King of God's Kingdom government bringing an end to all government against him - Daniel 2:44-45 - this is the coming system that will do not only better but do best.
- 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Perhaps Jesus meant that his disciples were to understand that the forgiveness principle would be a natural consequence of their becoming closer to God, and that their present less spiritually evolved state that innately sees an eye for eye type revenge as just would be transcended.

Under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law an 'eye for an eye' was Not revenge but stood for equal justice.
Jesus and his followers understood that law. It is modern-day people who have taken it out of context.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law an 'eye for an eye' was Not revenge but stood for equal justice.
Jesus and his followers understood that law. It is modern-day people who have taken it out of context.

I was using the word revenge in that context, a retribution/retaliation equal to the injury.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I was using the word revenge in that context, a retribution/retaliation equal to the injury.

Thank you for your reply.
Just a side thought: because under the Law there were Cities of Refuge set up for accidental deaths because there was the Avenger of Blood and Not the Revenger.
To me, the word revenge is in a negative sense.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Thank you for your reply.
Just a side thought: because under the Law there were Cities of Refuge set up for accidental deaths because there was the Avenger of Blood and Not the Revenger.
To me, the word revenge is in a negative sense.

True, revenge is commonly used in the sense of a vendetta..

 

[Colt]

His religion was clearly Judaism, so what we see in the Gospels is basically a "family feud", and they can all so often be the worst. The main issue at stake was dealing with Jewish Law: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ) .

While born into the monotheistic religion of Judaism, the conceptually simple, refined religion of Jesus was the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven which he lived, taught and preached for 3+ years before being apprehended by order of the Sanhedrin and put to death for that message. Christianity evolved into a religion about Jesus which was a new gospel that replaced the original.

 

[pearl]

But please notice what Jesus later said at Acts of the Apostles 1:8.

Just as Jerusalem was the city of destiny in the Gospel of Luke (the place where salvation was accomplished), so here at the beginning of Acts, Jerusalem occupies a central position. It is the starting point for the mission of the Christian disciples to “the ends of the earth,” the place where the apostles were situated and the doctrinal focal point in the early days of the community. The ends of the earth: for Luke, this means Rome.
Keep in mind that the Gospels were written well after the Christianity was already established.

 

[metis]

While born into the monotheistic religion of Judaism, the conceptually simple, refined religion of Jesus was the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven which he lived, taught and preached for 3+ years before being apprehended by order of the Sanhedrin and put to death for that message.

No, he was put to death by the Romans with some encouragement by some of the Jewish hierarchy, and we generally know that this was done for mainly political reasons.

Christianity evolved into a religion about Jesus which was a new gospel that replaced the original.

So, Jesus lied when he said he would guide his Church until the end of times?

The Church was and is the actual organization that Christ and the Apostles created, which both Acts and the epistles point out. It was not and is not some sort of loosey-goosey amalgamation of "just do your own thing". Jesus "taught with authority", as did the Apostles and as did and does the Church. It is the organization that selected your canon and evangelized throughout the known world. It is not perfect, but just a reminder that it wasn't perfect under Jesus either as the Gospels show.

 

[Colt]

No, he was put to death by the Romans with some encouragement by some of the Jewish hierarchy, and we generally know that this was done for mainly political reasons.

So, Jesus lied when he said he would guide his Church until the end of times?

The Church was and is the actual organization that Christ and the Apostles created, which both Acts and the epistles point out. It was not and is not some sort of loosey-goosey amalgamation of "just do your own thing". Jesus "taught with authority", as did the Apostles and as did and does the Church. It is the organization that selected your canon and evangelized throughout the known world. It is not perfect, but just a reminder that it wasn't perfect under Jesus either as the Gospels show.

No, the Romans didn't care about Jesus' spiritual teachings. It was the religious authorities of Judaism that constantly followed Jesus around, peppered him with questions and attempts to discredit him.

The Sanhedrin found him guilty of blasphemy.

John 18:28-40

28 Then the Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover. 29 So Pilate came out to them and asked, “What charges are you bringing against this man?”

The jews had to have the Romans put Jesus to death because they weren't allowed to.

Pilate said, “Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.”

“But we have no right to execute anyone,” they objected. 32 This took place to fulfill what Jesus had said about the kind of death he was going to die.

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

34 “Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”

35 “Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”


Pilate had no idea what Jesus had done so he wasn't even being noticed by the Romans for "political" activities!


Yes, Jesus has fostered the church as the best exponent of his life's work but he didn't interfere with how it evolved. Jesus established a spiritual kingdom not an authoritarian institution.

 

[metis]

No, the Romans didn't care about Jesus' spiritual teachings.

Which is what I said.

It was the religious authorities of Judaism that constantly followed Jesus around, peppered him with questions and attempts to discredit him.

The Sanhedrin found him guilty of blasphemy.

The Sanhedrin had no power of execution under Roman control, plus crucifixion was not a Jewish form of execution.

BTW, it was "some of the religious authorities" as the Gospel itself states.

Yes, Jesus has fostered the church as the best exponent of his life's work but he didn't interfere with how it evolved. Jesus established a spiritual kingdom not an authoritarian institution.

Oh, so he sent the Paraclete for nothing? He was more than willing to let his Church just die? Maybe that's what you believe but I certainly don't.

Jesus' Kingdom was and is both spiritual and authoritarian as he clearly meant it to be per the Gospel.