For Christians: Where Do the Dinosaurs Fit In?

[Katzpur]

For the LDS involved in this discussion:
"What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?
"We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his ecomony concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temperal existence." (D&C 77:6)

Doesn't this say that the earth, the entire earth not a portion of it, will only be temperal (or mortal, subject to death) for 7000 years? This doesn't allow for any death prior to the beginning of those 7000 years, which began with the fall.

We know that there are two kinds of death -- physical and spiritual. Since no life on earth prior to Adam and Eve had access to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (it being in Eden, which was created specifically for our first parents), I believe that it makes perfect sense to believe that there was no spiritual death prior to their transgression, but that physical death was still entirely possible. After all, the Tree of Life was in Eden, too. No life forms would have been able to eat from it either. Consequently, it would make sense that these life forms (i.e. prehistoric "man" and animals) would not have been able to live forever.

 

[Scott C.]

For the LDS involved in this discussion:
"What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?
"We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his ecomony concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temperal existence." (D&C 77:6)

Doesn't this say that the earth, the entire earth not a portion of it, will only be temperal (or mortal, subject to death) for 7000 years? This doesn't allow for any death prior to the beginning of those 7000 years, which began with the fall.

It seems to say that. I just don't know how to reconcile it all. Maybe I should just stick to my guns that there was no death on earth, period, until 6,000 years ago and wait it out to see how the science all fits together. How about this idea...We know God created the earth from existing materials. Suppose he tore off chunks of planets and put them together to make the earth and suppose these planets previously had life, including dinosaurs, so the bones came along for the ride. Don't laugh at me...I find it far fetched too...but I have heard this theory.

 

[Starfish]

It seems to say that. I just don't know how to reconcile it all. Maybe I should just stick to my guns that there was no death on earth, period, until 6,000 years ago and wait it out to see how the science all fits together. How about this idea...We know God created the earth from existing materials. Suppose he tore off chunks of planets and put them together to make the earth and suppose these planets previously had life, including dinosaurs, so the bones came along for the ride. Don't laugh at me...I find it far fetched too...but I have heard this theory.

I've heard that theory too, and I'm hysterical. (Kidding! No laughter here.)
I think I kind of like my friend's theory (posts 6 & 22) best. But I'm probably biased. I really feel strongly that the scriptures must be our standard and if science doesn't agree, then science has to be re-examined. Not that science is wrong, necessarily, just that something hasn't been considered. I also think that it's standard LDS doctrine that there was no death, physical or spiritual, in the world before the fall. I haven't researched that fact though. If so, the dinosaurs, fossils and all, had to be post-fall.

You guys are great thinkers!

 

[Katzpur]

How about this idea...We know God created the earth from existing materials. Suppose he tore off chunks of planets and put them together to make the earth and suppose these planets previously had life, including dinosaurs, so the bones came along for the ride. Don't laugh at me...I find it far fetched too...but I have heard this theory.

I've heard it, too. Far-fetched doesn't even begin to describe it, in my opinion. So far, my theory is the only one that makes much sense to me. But hey, what do I know? I'm just trying to make sense of it like the rest of you.

 

[Scott C.]

I've heard it, too. Far-fetched doesn't even begin to describe it, in my opinion. So far, my theory is the only one that makes much sense to me. But hey, what do I know? I'm just trying to make sense of it like the rest of you.

I have an Eric Dowdle painting depicting Noah gathering animals into the Ark. There is a dinosaur trying to board, but one of Noah's helpers is holding up a stop sign to turn him away. I think this must be doctrinally correct, since it's part of LDS art. :yes:

 

[Sola'lor]

I've heard it, too. Far-fetched doesn't even begin to describe it, in my opinion. So far, my theory is the only one that makes much sense to me. But hey, what do I know? I'm just trying to make sense of it like the rest of you.

And your theory is the only one to really explain why there was a Tree of Life in the first place. I believe Adam and Eve were imortal. But what was the purpose of the Tree of Life. But then if Adam and Eve were immortal why would they need to eat?

I went to the temple yestderday for part of our ward conference. I was contemplating the things of the universe and a thought occured to me. We know that the scriptures only reveal things relating to our salvation here on the Earth. We know very little about things other than what is relevent to us. My thought was what if there was a system of salvation for proto-man. In the other thread we were talking about salvation for animals. I imagine proto-man is somewhere between us and animals. So what if God instituted a 'religion' or way to salvation(not exhaltation) for them. What if they had something similar to an Adam and Eve and a fall. What if they had a sort of gospel that lead them to Jesus Christ. Something much simpler than the law of Moses or anything we have for us.

We know that where much is given much is required. During the time when everything was intellgences those of us who became humans were the most intelligent and were given more responsibilities and the ability to be exhalted and become like God. Those lesser intelligences became animals, plants, etc. So what if there were intellegences greater than animals but less than man. They became proto-man.

Anyway it was just a thought that occured to me. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Izdaari]

I don't take the creation story literally, so it isn't a big issue for me. I believe God created the universe, but I'm not too attached to any particular theory of how He did it. The only things I rule out are Young Earth Creation and non-theistic evolution.

 

[Katzpur]

The only things I rule out are Young Earth Creation and non-theistic evolution.

I'm with you there. I like how you put it, too.

 

[The Great Architect]

See, What I believe is that at some point in time, God did create a man in His own image and called him Adam. He created a woman to be Adam's wife. He placed in them their spirits. They were the first of all God's literal spirit sons and daughters. /quote]

How handy for Adam. I wonder what the story would be if a woman had recorded the story. First the animals- for human use, then man to labor, then the crowning achievement- woman. That is demeaning to men, I am sure.

How are women to feel about being created to be the wife? If that is so, why are they even self aware? Would God be kinder to have them be as beasts, and not be aware of their inequality?

God created women as his daughters. He gave them a great gift in being able to co- create life, along with all the other gifts humans in general received. Men have exercised unrighteous dominion through out history- claiming God commanded it. Funny, Christ didn't act that way...

One of the things I first noticed when I picked up the New Testament, was the huge paradigm shift, compared to the Old Testament. The language is different, the approach is different, the mindset is different; everything is turned on its head. I liked it!:bounce:clap2:

 

[Te Deum]

In case it has not already been said, Genesis 1-3 can be seen as theologically important rather than the source of information concerning the literal creation of the world. Genesis is the source of theological information - not of scientific information and a drastic, literal retelling of Creation. For example, the Catholic Church is in agreement with this position.

If I may quote a past article of mine for further information...

First, we as Catholics know that the universe was created out of nothingness (CCC 317-318). Some scientists claim that the universe was randomly created in what they call the Big Bang. Most people don't realize that the theory of the Big Bang was first conceived by a Belgian priest named Georges-Henri Lemaître although he did not give it the name "Big Bang".

At Vatican I, the Church infallibly stated that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5). So, we do not believe the world was created in a random order without God's role. To believe that we would believe a lie.

The Church does not have a position on whether or not the stars and planets were created at the same time as the universe. However, when they were created they were also done so under the guidance of God. "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6). The Church has also infallibly stated that the universe is finite - it did not always exist. God alone is the only one that has always existed.

With biological evolution, the Church does not have a firm position on the matter, but again, the creation of all creatures is again attributed to God. No animal or plant lifeform developed without God's active guidance. He is the Creator.

Concerning human evolution, the Church is much more clear on its position. We must believe as an absolute truth that the human soul has never evolved and is never passed on from our parents. Our soul is unique to us, and the soul has never evolved. Also, it is an absolute truth that we have descended from one person - Adam, from whom Orginal Sin has been passed down to us. This must be believed.

Pope Pius XII wrote, "The Church does not forbid that...research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter." (Encyclical Humani Generis)

The Church has neither accepted nor rejected the idea of some form of biological "evolution". But above all, if this theory is true, it is true only because God has willed it to be so. God is our Master and Our Creator. The world has come into being through Him, and that is the firm truth. We can learn about God from the created world. I personally do not believe in the theory because of inconsistencies.

In Encyclical Pascendi, Pope St. Pius X in 1907 condemned Modernism, which is based on Evolution. He called it the the "synthesis of all heresies". St. Pius X also condemned the idea that the Faith must be subject to current views of Science and History.

Ludwig Ott in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma stated the following points concerning science. These are all infallibly defined and consequently are true and must be believed by Catholics.

• All that exists outside God was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God.
• God was moved by His Goodness to create the world.
• The world was created for the Glorification of God.
• The Three Divine Persons are one single, common Principle of the Creation.
• God created the world free from exterior compulsion and inner necessity.
• God has created a good world.
• The world had a beginning in time.
• God alone created the world.
• God keeps all created things in existence.
• God, through His Providence, protects and guides all that He has created.

"The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers" (CCC 283).
Overall, the Church permits belief in special creation (the literal belief from the Book of Genesis) or in developmental creation, where God created us but we did evolve with the exceptions already mentioned above. The Church condemns belief in atheistic evolution, which claims God had no role in our creation. Atheistic evolution is a lie.
We above all can learn of God through the created world (Romans 1:20-23). If evolution is true, it is only true because God has willed it to be the method He used in the creation of the world.

Bibliography:

Catholic Answers
Wikipedia: Evolution and the Roman Catholic Church
Where is Evolution in Catholic teaching?

 

[Starfish]

In case it has not already been said, Genesis 1-3 can be seen as theologically important rather than the source of information concerning the literal creation of the world. Genesis is the source of theological information - not of scientific information and a drastic, literal retelling of Creation. For example, the Catholic Church is in agreement with this position.

If I may quote a past article of mine for further information...

Thanks Te Deum. But what about the dinosaurs? We know they were here. How does the Catholic Church fit them in with Adam and Eve? Thanks again.

 

[Te Deum]

Thanks Te Deum. But what about the dinosaurs? We know they were here. How does the Catholic Church fit them in with Adam and Eve? Thanks again.

To answer your question, I would like to quote an article on Catholic Answers (dinosaurs.. - Catholic Answers Forums

I leave the issue of how old the earth is to scientists, who have frequently revised their estimates within my lifetime. The people whom God inspired to write the books of the Bible may not have known about dinosaurs. Did the Emperor Marcus Aurelius, who died in 180 A.D., know about them? All the books of the Bible were written by that date, with the Book of Genesis finalized almost 700 years earlier.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word dinosaur entered the English language only in 1841. You ask were do dinosaurs fall within creation. Who are we to dictate to God about such things?

It is important that we accept the Bible for what it is (the self-revelation of God) and not complain that it is not something else (an encyclopedia of all knowledge). Even encyclopedias need to be updated as our knowledge grows!

The opposition between religion and science is really a false opposition because a single God stands behind both of them. At times, some religious people have claimed too much (the sun moves around the earth because the Bible presumes that). At other times, a few scientists have claimed too much (scientific research is not subject to moral limits).

For some additional good information (which answers your question by stating that Genesis does not actually concern itself with literally presenting the story of Creation), please see these articles:

Catholic Answers Forums - View Single Post - How do dinosaurs fit into the Bible?

Again, I do hope this helps answer your question.

 

[Scott C.]

A common belief in Christianity is that there was not death on earth until the Fall of Adam and Eve, which occurred about 6,000 years ago. Do Catholics teach this? If so, how do we explain dinosaurs coming and going millions of years ago?