For Fellow Christians only: Today's modern Pharisees..

[aaglaas]

Unless you are the Rev. William H. Carey, it might be nice to give proper attribution to your source.

Done! However, that doesn't change the truth of what I shared with you above.

 

[sojourner]

Someone who does not accept the Bible "not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God"

The bible is not some magical document dropped out of the sky. It was written by human beings, through the lens of their particular understanding.

likely will mistake God's love for permissiveness, and mistake God's impartiality for acceptance of behavior he clearly condemns.

God doesn't condemn people for who they are. Unfortunately for you, who mistake the bible for some magical document that cannot ever be wrong, the people who wrote "what God thought" were mistaken about the nature of homosexual activity and human sexuality.

I believe Jehovah has clearly made his views of homosexuality known, both by his clear commands and warning examples.

Here's the crux of your statement: I believe. What you believe has nothing to do with what is reality. Reality = there's nothing abnormal or wrong about homosexuality. That's established, scientific fact. Your belief = God hates people who act on sexual confusion.

 

[rusra02]

The bible is not some magical document dropped out of the sky. It was written by human beings, through the lens of their particular understanding.

God doesn't condemn people for who they are. Unfortunately for you, who mistake the bible for some magical document that cannot ever be wrong, the people who wrote "what God thought" were mistaken about the nature of homosexual activity and human sexuality.

Here's the crux of your statement: I believe. What you believe has nothing to do with what is reality. Reality = there's nothing abnormal or wrong about homosexuality. That's established, scientific fact. Your belief = God hates people who act on sexual confusion.

I understand you want to discredit the Bible to avoid the truth that homosexuality is clearly condemned by God, as are other sexual sins. Nevertheless, I believe the Bible is God's communication to all mankind, and "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)
Please don't presume to tell me what I believe. Some early Christians practiced homosexuality before becoming Christians, but stopped the practice once they understood it displeased God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) God shows love for homosexuals and other wrongdoers, not by condoning their sins, but by helping them make the needed changes to please him. (2 Peter 3:9) IMO, those who claim God will accept us regardless of what we do without repenting, are misleading others and the truth is not in them. (1 John 1:6)

 

[sojourner]

I understand you want to discredit the Bible to avoid the truth that homosexuality is clearly condemned by God, as are other sexual sins. Nevertheless, the Bible is God's communication to all mankind, and "

I don't want to "discredit the bible." I want to expose the truth of the bible. It's patently not "God's communication to all mankind." It is "the written collection of written and oral Tradition of God's people."

 

[aaglaas]

I understand you want to discredit the Bible to avoid the truth that homosexuality is clearly condemned by God, as are other sexual sins. Nevertheless, I believe the Bible is God's communication to all mankind, and "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)
Please don't presume to tell me what I believe. Some early Christians practiced homosexuality before becoming Christians, but stopped the practice once they understood it displeased God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) God shows love for homosexuals and other wrongdoers, not by condoning their sins, but by helping them make the needed changes to please him. (2 Peter 3:9) IMO, those who claim God will accept us regardless of what we do without repenting, are misleading others and the truth is not in them. (1 John 1:6)

No, that's not true. The only homosexual acts condemned are within pagan, prostitution, or abusive settings... the joining of two homosexuals in monogamous union and love is something to be blessed and thankful for.

The Apostle Paul did not write general prohibitions against homosexual activity, but against abuses in homosexual activity-specifically pederasty. Paul was not against homosexuality per se but against homosexual abuse, or perhaps better—homosexual sins related to abuse of the body and comparable to heterosexual sins such as adultery and fornication. Paul’s discussion of homosexuality is like Paul’s allowance for temperance in drinking without requiring abstinence (cf. 1 Tim 5:23).

One should not assume uncritically that there is in the Corinthian passage a proof-text against all homosexuality or even all homosexual acts. Of course, homosexual behavior can be perverted and sinful and exploitative just as heterosexual activity can be—or any kind of activity can be—but this is not the same as rejecting either sexual orientation or specific acts as sinful as such. Pederasty, the same-sex male relations between an adult and a child (or teenager), is the type of abuse Paul had in mind in his vice-list of 1 Corinthians 6:9.

In its most general expression, the significant terms in 1 Corinthians 6:9 are descriptive of male prostitution. Then in a more detailed manner, the specific terms are focused on to describe pederastic men, arsenokotoi, (ἀρσενοκοῖται )who bought the services of the malakoi (μαλακοὶ )… or “call boys.”

9-11: Catalogues of vices and virtues are known from Jewish and Greek writers, especially the Stoic philosophers. 9: Male prostitutes (Ck

"malakoi," lit., "soft men") were boys and men sodomized by other males for money, while sodomites (Ck "arsenokoitai,a word first found here and based on LXX Lev 18.22; 20.13) were men who exercised the dominant role with the male prostitutes or sex-slave, pederasts.



‘arsenokitai’, variously and inaccurately described in the following Bibles as:



"men who practice homosexuality," (ESV);



"those who participate in homosexuality," (Amplified);



"abusers of themselves with men," (KJV);



"practicing homosexuals," (NET Bible). This translation would refer only to persons with a homosexual or bisexual orientation who is sexually active with persons of the same sex. It would not include persons who are sexually attracted to persons of the same sex, but who are celibate.



"homosexuals," (NASB, CSB, NKJ, NLT, The Great Book: The New Testament in Plain English);



"homosexual perversion," (NEB);



"homosexual offenders," (NIV);



"liers with mankind," (Rhiems); and



"homosexual perverts." (TEV)



"passive homosexual partners." (NET Bible)


Although "homosexual" is a very common translation in English Bibles, it is almost certain to be very inaccurate:



If Paul wanted to refer to homosexual behavior, he would have used the word "paiderasste." That was the standard Greek term at the time for sexual behavior between males.


The second term is "arsenokoitai" in Greek. The exact meaning of this word is lost. It seems to have been a term created by Paul for this verse. "Arsen" means "man" in Greek. So there is no way that "arsenokoitai" could refer to both male and female homosexuals. It seems that the English translators gave in to the temptation to widen Paul's condemnation to include lesbians as well as gay males.


The only certain statement that can be made about the word is that it has changed in its perceived meaning and translation over time.


One translation technique is to look at the root words alone. Arsenokoitai is a combination of two existing words, one meaning “bed” and referring to sex, and another meaning “male.” Thus, some scholars surmise the term has something to do with male sexual expression — perhaps exclusive male sexual expression, since no woman is mentioned.

Unfortunately, this method of translation often leads people astray. For example, imagine a future translator coming across the word “lady-killer” two thousand years from now and wanting to know what it means. It’s clear the phrase is made from two words, lady and killer. So, it must mean a woman who kills, right? Or is it a person who kills ladies? The difficulty in obtaining a good translation is clear — particularly when we know lady-killer was a term used in the 1970s to refer to men whom women supposedly found irresistible.

This example is a good illustration of the troubles inherent in translations based on simple root-word analysis.

A better way to understand what Paul may have meant by arsenokoitai is to look for other instances of the word in the subsequent writings of his time. This approach yields several telling facts. First, two early church writers who dealt with the subject of homosexual behavior extensively, Clement of Alexandria and John Chrysostom, never used the word in their discussions of same-sex behavior. The word shows up in their writing, but only in places where they appear to be quoting the list of sins found in 1 Corinthians 6, not in places where they discuss homosexuality. This suggests they did not believe Paul’s term referred to homosexual behavior in general.

A similar pattern is found in other writings of the time. There are hundreds of Greek writings from this period that refer to homosexual activity using terms other than arsenokoitai. If Paul had intended to refer generally to homosexual sex, or to one of the partners in gay-male sex, he had other commonly-used, well-known words at his disposal. He wouldn’t have had to resort to this ambiguous compound word, which future generations would find difficult to translate. Paul was trying to refer to some more obscure type of behavior than homosexuality in general.

This conclusion is reinforced by a survey of the actual uses of arsenokoitai in Greek literature. Scholars have identified only 73 times this term is used in the six centuries after Paul. ((There are no known instances before Paul.) In virtually every instance the term appears in a list of sins (like Paul’s) without any story line or other context to shed light on its meaning. There are, however, a few helpful exceptions. In one instance, a Greek author uses the term when cataloguing the sins of the Greek gods. In this context, the term is probably intended to refer to the time Zeus abducted and raped a young boy, Ganymede. Arsenokoitai is also used in an ancient legend in which the snake in the Garden of Eden is said to have become a Satanic figure named Naas. Naas uses a variety of means (including sleeping with both Adam and Eve) to gain power over and destroy them. In this story, Naas is said to have gone to Adam and had him like a boy. Naas’ sin is called arsenokoitai. These examples highly suggest that arsenokoitai refers to instances when one male uses his superior power or position to take sexual advantage of another.

-Excerpt from Ralph Blair, 'An Evangelical Look at Homosexuality'.(New York: Evangelicals Concerned, 1977)

 

[rusra02]

The Bible is consistent throughout in it's condemnation of homosexual conduct.
Sodom and Gommorah have already been mentioned as being condemned because they "also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires; they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire." (Jude 7)
The Law God gave Moses specifically forbade homosexual acts. (Leviticus 20:13) Then we have the plain statement at 1 Corinthians 6:9,10. I think the evidence is clear, and trying to modify or weaken the Bibles prohibition of homosexual conduct will not succeed.

 

[aaglaas]

Sodom and Gommorah have already been mentioned as being condemned because they "also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires; they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire." (Jude 7)
.

Nope. Ancient Jewish commentaries on Sodom (in the Mishnah) all agree that Sodom and the other cities were destroyed because of their cruelty to strangers and their failure to help the poor. None of them suggests anything in regard to homosexual activity. There is no record throughout 'all' of history of any person being put to death in Judaism for homosexuality because the translations and teachings you follow on this are completely false.

 

[aaglaas]

The false translations you follow on this subject were originally put into effect by the same Church Fathers who, through their puppet emperors they had raised and indoctrinated since infancy, and whose word was law, declared the death penalty for all who disagreed with them.

Besides murdering homosexuals merely for being who they are and how God created them, all these new laws were passed with approval of the Church, which behaved just as ISIS does now by murdering everyone who did not wish to become Christian, but instead wished to remain faithful to their ancient religion. Under advice from their bishop Ambrose, Christian emperors Valentinian II, Theodosius I and Arcadius declared homosexual sex to be illegal and those who were found guilty of it were condemned to be burned alive in front of the public on August 6th, 390 CE.


“We command that all those proved to be devoting themselves to sacrificing or worshiping images be subject to the penalty of death.”– Codex Theodosianus, XVI.10.6


“It is decreed that in all places and all cities the [pagan] temples should be closed at once, and after a general warning, the opportunity of sinning be taken from the wicked. We decree also that we shall cease from making sacrifices. And if anyone has committed such a crime, let him be stricken with the avenging sword. And we decree that the property of the one executed shall be claimed by the city, and that rulers of the provinces be punished in the same way, if they neglect to punish such crimes.”– Codex Theodosianus, XVI.10.4.


“No one shall consult a soothsayer, astrologer or diviner. The perverse pronouncements of augurs and seers must fall silent. … The universal curiosity about divination must be silent forever. Whosoever refuses obedience to this command shall suffer the penalty of death and be laid low by the avenging sword.”— Codex Theodosianus, IX.16.4


“All persons who have the shameful custom of condemning a man’s body, acting the part of a woman’s to the sufferance of alien sex (for they appear not to be different from women), shall expiate a crime of this kind by being burned to death in the public sight of the people.”
-Codex Theodosius IX. Vii. 6


“Black robed Christian fanatics hasten to attack the temples with sticks and stones and bars of iron, and in some cases, disdaining these, with hands and feet. Then utter desolation follows, with the stripping of roofs, demolition of walls, the tearing down of statues and the overthrow of altars, and the priests must either keep quiet or die. After demolishing one, they scurry to another, and to a third, and trophy is piled on trophy, in contravention of the law. Such outrages occur even in the cities, but they are most common in the countryside …”
– Letter from Libanius pleading for restoration of civil order to Emperor Theodosius I, 386 C.E.

“It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.”

-Eusebius of Nicomedia (Christian emperor Constantine’s overseer of church doctrine and history, 342)

“In the person whose mind is sound there is no need to learn letters.” -St Anthony

“It should be enough for you to know that there is a good shepherd who gave his soul for his sheep … How big God is, what His limits are, and of what essence … such questions are dangerous … they shall be taken care of with silence.” – St Basil

“Let us Christians prefer the simplicity of our faith to the demonstrations of human reason … For to spend much time on research about the essence of things would not serve the edification of the Church.” – St Basil.

 

[sojourner]

The Bible is consistent throughout in it's condemnation of homosexual conduct.
Sodom and Gommorah have already been mentioned as being condemned because they "also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires; they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire." (Jude 7)
The Law God gave Moses specifically forbade homosexual acts. (Leviticus 20:13) Then we have the plain statement at 1 Corinthians 6:9,10. I think the evidence is clear, and trying to modify or weaken the Bibles prohibition of homosexual conduct will not succeed.

The bible also consistently makes its claims through the cultural understandings of its writers.

 

[rusra02]

The bible also consistently makes its claims through the cultural understandings of its writers.

I and millions of others accept the Holy Scriptures, "not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God." ( 1 Thessalonians 2:13) I believe, as the Bible teaches, that "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16) Obviously, you do not. So be it.

 

[sojourner]

I and millions of others accept the Holy Scriptures, "not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God."

Bully for you. And when your "acceptance" runs afoul of scientific evidence, you shrug your shoulders at the evidence and spout some platitude about how it "must be wrong." Tell you what: Next time a spacecraft moves out of the atmosphere into deep space and doesn't crash against the rigid dome of the sky (as per Genesis 1), We'll send y'all up there to fetch it back, because, if the bible is "right," the spacecraft should plummet back to each after such a crash, on its own, without having to send "believers" out after it. Why? Because the Bible. Is. Wrong on that point. The sky is not a rigid dome, leaving spacecraft free to move.

 

[rusra02]

Bully for you. And when your "acceptance" runs afoul of scientific evidence, you shrug your shoulders at the evidence and spout some platitude about how it "must be wrong." Tell you what: Next time a spacecraft moves out of the atmosphere into deep space and doesn't crash against the rigid dome of the sky (as per Genesis 1), We'll send y'all up there to fetch it back, because, if the bible is "right," the spacecraft should plummet back to each after such a crash, on its own, without having to send "believers" out after it.

I think you are misrepresenting what the Bible says, but I doubt I can convince you of that.

 

[CMike]

Many Christians today are guilty of being just like the Pharisees, using scripture as a weapon to persecute and reject others over how God created them and who they love, while ignoring every teaching and command that is inconvenient for them to follow. The following teachings that they ignore every day while thinking they are condemning those who disagree or who question their actions to hell, highlights their moral hypocrisy quite well.

Matthew 5:43-48

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you only love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Romans 13:9

For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

James 2:14-17

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

1 Corinthians 13:1-2

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not show love to others, I am merely a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not show love to others, I am nothing.…

Matthew 22:36-40

“Teacher, what is the most important commandment in the Law?” He replied, “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your being, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second most important commandment is like it: You must love your neighbor as you love yourself. All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commands.”

Matthew 23-4

“They (the Pharisees both ancient and modern) crush other people with unbearable religious demands and yet themselves never lift a finger to ease the burden.”

Matthew 18:21-22

“Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven!”

Matthew 23:13

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either.”

Matthew 23: 15

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are!”

1 Timothy 4:1-4

“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.” For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude.

We can see that happening today from people whose consciences have been totally seared away, and who have no care or feeling whatsoever as to the spiritual and emotional pain and torment they cause gay people with their prejudice and rejection, many times to the point of suicide, or the teachings they spread that today are being used as justification to beat, imprison, and murder gay people in Uganda and many other places around the world. We can see such people today with unholy zeal attempting to forbid marriage to gay people as well, just as was prophesied while they reject instead of receiving with gratitude the unique way that God created gay people.

It is truly horrific and goes against all teachings of Christ to Love and accept one another as God created us, but the demons are surely delighted by so much hatred, persecution, and murder engendered through their false and hateful teachings.

I proudly am like that Pharisee of old.

Je Suis Pharisee

 

[CMike]

Such as?

Such as people who think they have divine power and try to turn Jews away from their G-D and religion.

 

[CMike]

The word "arsenokoitai" in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy:


"Arsenokoitai" is a Greek word that appears to have been uniquely created by Paul when he was writing 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. No record remains of any writer having using the term before Paul. It has been translated as "abusers of themselves with mankind" in the King James Version (KJV):


"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."


The KJV was finished 1611 CE when there was no single word in the English language that referred to homosexuals or homosexuality. The translators were forced to use this awkward phrase. The term "homosexual" was only created in the late 19th century.


More recent versions of the Bible translate arsenokoitai here as:


• "homosexuals," (NASB);
• "homosexual perversion," (NEB);
• "homosexual offenders," (NIV).


In doing this, they appear to have little respect or attention to the actual meaning of the original Greek verse. By using the term "homosexual" the translators changed the scope of the verse. The original Greek refers to men only; the English translation refers to both males and females; i.e. to gays and lesbians. We suspect that the temptation to attack lesbians overcame the translators' desire to be accurate.


The author of 1 Timothy also used "arsenokoitai." The KJV translated it similarly:


"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine."


Christian theologians generally agree that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians circa 55 CE. However, they differ on the authorship and date of the three Pastoral Epistles -- 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus.


• Some scholars believe that Paul wrote the Pastoral epistles during the interval 62 to 64 CE just before his death.


• Many other scholars believe that they were written up to 85 years after Paul's execution, circa 100 to 150 CE by an unknown person who pretended to be Paul.


What does "arsenokoitai" really mean?


"Arsenokoitai" is made up of two parts: "arsen" means "man"; "koitai" means "beds."


Although the word in English Bibles is interpreted as referring to homosexuals, we can be fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, he would have used the word "paiderasste." That was the standard Greek term at the time for sexual activity between males. We can conclude that he probably meant something different than people who engaged in male-male adult sexual behavior.


Many sources have speculated about the meaning of "arsenokoitai:"


• "Homosexual offenders:" The NIV contains this phrase. Suppose for the moment that Paul had attacked "heterosexual offenders" or "heterosexual sexual offenders." We would not interpret this today as a general condemnation of heterosexuality. It would be seen as an attack only on those heterosexuals who commit sexual offences. Perhaps the appropriate interpretation of this verse is that it does not condemn all homosexuals. Rather it condemns only those homosexuals who engage in sexual offences (e.g. child sexual abuse, rape, unsafe sex, manipulative sex, coercive sex, etc).


• Male prostitutes in Pagan temples: One source states that the Septuagint (an ancient, pre-Christian translation of the Old Testament into Greek made between the 3rd and 1st centuryBCE) translated the Hebrew "quadesh" in I Kings 14:24, 15:12 and 22:46 into a Greek word somewhat similar to "arsenokoitai." This passage referred to "male temple prostitutes" -- people who engaged in ritual sex in Pagan temples. Some leaders in the early Christian church also thought 1 Corinthians was referring to temple prostitutes. Some authorities believe that it simply means male prostitutes with female customers - a practice which appears to have been a common practice in the Roman empire.


• Pimp: Another source refers to other writings, written later than 1 Corinthians, which contains the word "arsenokoitai:" This includes the Sibylline Oracles 2.70-77, Acts of John, and Theophilus of Antioch's Ad Autolycum. The source suggests that the term refers "to some kind of economic exploitation by means of sex (but not necessarily homosexual sex)." Probably "pimp" or "man living off of the avails of prostitution" would be the closest English translations. It is worth noting that "Much Greek homosexual erotic literature has survived, none of it contains the word arsenokoitai."


• Masturbators. At the time of Martin Luther, "arsenokoitai" was universally interpreted as masturbator. But by the 20th century, masturbation had become a more generally accepted behavior. So, new translations abandoned references to masturbators and switched the attack to homosexuals. The last religious writing in English that interpreted 1 Corinthians 6:9 as referring to masturbation is believed to be the [Roman] Catholic Encyclopedia of 1967.


• Abusive pedophiles: Many would consider "malakoi" -- the word preceding "arsenokoitai," in 1 Corinthians -- to refer to a catamite: a boy or young male who engaged in sexual activities with men. Such boys were often slaves, owned by rich men as sex partners. The second term might then refer to the men who engaged in sex with the catamites. That is, they were abusive pedophiles or hebephiles. The New American Bible contains a footnote which reads:


"The Greek word translated as 'boy prostitutes' [in 1 Cor. 6:9] designated catamites, i.e. boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world....The term translated 'practicing homosexuals' refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys."


In their footnote, the translators recognize that the term refers to abusive male pedophiles, but apparently cannot resist the temptation to attack all homosexuals -- both gays and lesbians, non-abusive and abusive.


Harper's Bible Commentary (1998) states that the passage refers to:


"... both the effeminate male prostitute and his partner who hires him to satisfy sexual needs. The two terms used here for homosexuality... specify a special form of pederasty that was generally disapproved of in Greco-Roman and Jewish Literature."


Many religious scholars agree that the center portion of 6:9 might be accurately translated as: "male child abusers and the boys that they sexually abuse." i.e. the two behaviors probably relate to male pedophiles who are also child rapists, and the male children that they victimize. The verse would then refer to the crime of child sexual abuse and has no relation to homosexuality in the normal sense of the term: i.e. to consensual sexual relations between adults of the same gender.


Male prostitutes: An analysis of 1 Corinthians shows a pattern in verse 9 and 10. They are composed up of pairs or triads of related groups of people:


The lawless & disobedient: two near synonyms


The ungodly & sinners: also two near synonyms


The unholy & profane: two synonyms


The murderers of fathers & murderers of mothers & manslayers: three kinds of murderers


Whoremongers & "arsenokoitai" & menstealers


Liars & perjurers etc.: again, two near synonyms.


From the repeated pairs or triads made up of synonyms or near synonyms, one might expect that whoremongers, "malakoi arsenokoitai," and menstealers are interconnected with a common theme -- just like the other pairs and triads in the list.


In the original Greek, the first of the three words is "pornov." An online Greek lexicon notes that this is Strong's Number 4205, and was derived from the Greek word "pernemi" which means to sell. Its meanings are:


A man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire.


A male prostitute.


A man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator.


The second term is "arsenokoitai" which has not been given a Strong Number because it is a made-up word that is almost never found in the Greek language other than in 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians.


The last of the three words is "andrapodistes," the stem of the word andrapodistai. It is Strong's Number 405 which means:


A slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer -- one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery or who steals the slaves of others and sells them.


If we assume that the three words refer to a common theme, as the other five groups are, then we have to look for some sense which the words have in common:


"pornoi" refers to an enslaved male prostitute.


"arsenokoitai" refers to a man who forces sex on an enslaved male prostitute


"andrapodistes" refers to a person who kidnaps and enslaves people.

S

Fortunately I don't need a translation. I understand Hebrew.

It says a man shall not lie with a man as he does a woman (paraphrase)

 

[sojourner]

I think you are misrepresenting what the Bible says, but I doubt I can convince you of that.

Thankfully, it doesn't matter what you think; it only matters what it says. In Genesis 1, the term translated as "sky" (Gen. 1:6-8) is the Hebrew word raqiya, which means "a hammered-out dome." The ancients believed that the sky was a rigid dome, covering a disc-shaped earth. The sun, moon, stars, etc. were affixed to this dome. IOW: the Bible. Is. Wrong. Why? Because the bible is written from the cultural POV of its writers, not from some mystical, "God-breathed truth."

But, as I opined in my post above, You'll just shrug it off as me being obviously mistaken about what the word means, or about the "fact" that "hammered out dome" is a "metaphor" (even though a literalistic view of the texts, such as yours, excludes a metaphoric understanding).

Don't believe me? See here:
Raqiya (Hebrew) - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

 

[sojourner]

I proudly am like that Pharisee of old.

Je Suis Pharisee

I suppose there's no accounting for taste...

 

[rusra02]

Thankfully, it doesn't matter what you think; it only matters what it says. In Genesis 1, the term translated as "sky" (Gen. 1:6-8) is the Hebrew word raqiya, which means "a hammered-out dome." The ancients believed that the sky was a rigid dome, covering a disc-shaped earth. The sun, moon, stars, etc. were affixed to this dome. IOW: the Bible. Is. Wrong. Why? Because the bible is written from the cultural POV of its writers, not from some mystical, "God-breathed truth."

But, as I opined in my post above, You'll just shrug it off as me being obviously mistaken about what the word means, or about the "fact" that "hammered out dome" is a "metaphor" (even though a literalistic view of the texts, such as yours, excludes a metaphoric understanding).

Don't believe me? See here:
Raqiya (Hebrew) - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

I think this quote from Insight I p. 785 is appropriate; "The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·reʹo·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qiʹaʽ, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the RevisedS tandard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qiʹaʽ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the AmericannStandardnVersionngives “expanse” in its footnote. Other translations support such rendering—“expanse” (Ro;Fn;Yg;An;NW); “expansión” (VM [Spanish]); “étendue [extent or expanse]” (Segond;Ostervald [French]).

Some endeavor to show that the ancient Hebrew concept of the universe included the idea of a solid vault arched over the earth, with sluice holes through which rain could enter and with the stars fixed within this solid vault, diagrams of such concept appearing in Bible dictionaries and some Bible translations. Commenting on this attitude, The International Standard Bible Encyclopædia states: “But this assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O[ld] T[estament].”—Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.
Though the formation of the expanse, or atmosphere, surrounding earth did not involve a ‘beating out’ of something as solid as some metallic substance, yet it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself (in addition to carrying water and innumerable particles of solid materials, such as dust). The weight of all the air surrounding earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. (TheWorldBookEncyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156) Air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm (15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qiʹaʽ is certainly in harmony with the known facts."

 

[CMike]

CMike said: ↑
I proudly am like that Pharisee of old.

Je Suis Pharisee

I suppose there's no accounting for taste...

Thank is very very true. Thank you for demonstrating this.

 

[CMike]

Thankfully, it doesn't matter what you think; it only matters what it says. In Genesis 1, the term translated as "sky" (Gen. 1:6-8) is the Hebrew word raqiya, which means "a hammered-out dome." The ancients believed that the sky was a rigid dome, covering a disc-shaped earth. The sun, moon, stars, etc. were affixed to this dome. IOW: the Bible. Is. Wrong. Why? Because the bible is written from the cultural POV of its writers, not from some mystical, "God-breathed truth."

But, as I opined in my post above, You'll just shrug it off as me being obviously mistaken about what the word means, or about the "fact" that "hammered out dome" is a "metaphor" (even though a literalistic view of the texts, such as yours, excludes a metaphoric understanding).

Don't believe me? See here:
Raqiya (Hebrew) - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

raqiya means an expanse such as widespread.