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For LDS only...some tricky questions

Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
Reading critical sites, they say that JS made many false prophecies. I'm not actually sure on this as I don't know if they were indeed prophecies or just an opinion of his.

Prophecies include:

Jesus return in 56 years
A temple being built within Smiths generation
All nations would be involved in Civil War
The earth will tremble and the sun will be hidden
Isaiah 11 would soon be fulfilled

Thanks guys :)
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
Reading critical sites, they say that JS made many false prophecies. I'm not actually sure on this as I don't know if they were indeed prophecies or just an opinion of his.

Did he directly say that they were a prophecy? If it was not directly said, then it wasn't an official prophecy. Also, it could still be coming, "soon" is a very relative word (Christians have been waiting 2000 years for Christ to return "soon").

Also, just as a general pointer: going to critical sites will tell you what something is not (the empty space), but will never tell you what something IS (the filled space). If you want to know what Mormonism IS, I recommend different websites.
 

Michael G. Reed

New Member
Truth_Faith13 said, "The Temple having masonic symbols on the outside

Great question. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and others believed that the Church restored freemasonry, which is why the endowment was occasionally called "celestial masonry" by early members. Whether they restored it or not, I think it is important to understand that what was produced was more in line with thoughts/ideas that were being circulated in the Masonic {re}Christianization movement of the day. This movement met fierce resistance among opposing factions withing the fraternity (many of whom insisted that a more universalist/deist rite should prevail). So... although some Church critics may be quick to insist that masonic elements are proof of Paganism or even Satanism... that is quite contrary to the evidence. Mormonism produced (restored?) a more (not less) Christian version of masonic ritual. The symbols (which were adopted from FM) were placed in distinctly Christian contexts. The pentagrams (which many masons believed alluded to the five wounds of Christ), for example, are surrounded by stonework of truncated crosses. A rather brilliant combination of symbols, if you ask me... together representing the atonement of Jesus Christ, as well as a certain part of the endowment that has to do with "five-points" and wounds of Christ (can't be specific here, sry). The use of the cross may come as a surprise to some here, as it is generally assumed that the early LDS never embraced the symbol, but this is not the case. Discomfort over the symbol was actually a late development in LDS culture, emerging at the grass roots around the turn of the 20th century, but wasn't institutionalized until the 1950s--at which time, the cross taboo emerged/was institutionalized, fundamentally, in order to differentiate the LDS CHurch from Catholicism. My book traces the development of attitudes toward the cross in Mormon history/culture, and also includes a brief chapter on freemasonry and the LDS Temple. Google search "Banishing the Cross" and my name, and you will find several newspaper articles, blog posts, podcast interviews, my book on amazon, and even a Youtube video of a presentation I gave a few years ago.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Reading critical sites, they say that JS made many false prophecies. I'm not actually sure on this as I don't know if they were indeed prophecies or just an opinion of his.
I'm not sure if you're looking for a general explanation or for responses to these specific "prophecies." I'll respond the the first two and then wait for your answer before delving in deeper. Before I do, though, I'd just like to say that I agree with Jane's post #62, at least to the extent that I would suggest you not spend so much time trying to disprove Mormonism and a little bit more time studying its doctrines and teachings. You will always be able to find issues for which there seems to be no good answers, but I really think that this would be true regardless of which religion you're studying. I've been a Mormon my entire life, and I can still find reasons to doubt. I'm not saying that you should just ignore your doubts, just that you should put them into perspective. For every reason I can find to disbelieve Mormonism, I can find ten to believe it. I can let the one reason consume me or I can embrace the ten.

Don't get me wrong. I think the pendulum can (and often does) swing too far the other direction. I know of two women in my ward, both about my age, who have said to me, in essence, "I don't know. I've never really given it very much though -- I mean about whether the Church is true or not. My parents always told me it was. And I figure if it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me." It was all I could do not to lay into these women and ask them what on earth they were using their brains for, other than to decide what to fix for dinner. There are far too many Mormons who take that position, just as there are far too many non-Mormons who will stop at nothing to prove that Joseph Smith was a fraud and that Mormonism is a religion designed for idiots. Nobody should ever belong to a religion because their parents did.
Having said that, here are my answers to the first two "propheces" that supposedly "failed":

Jesus return in 56 years
Critics of the Church have mentioned that Joseph Smith "prophesied" that "God had revealed to him that the coming of Christ would be within 56 years." Interestingly, we have no actual transcript of any sermon containing such a prophecy. There are references to a sermon in which Joseph was said to have mentioned "the coming of the Lord, which was nigh -- even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." Remember that we're getting this information second- and third-hand from several individuals whose recollections of the sermon have been combined into a single narrative and not from any original document.

But let's look at the events which led Joseph to make a statement that apparently was taken by at least some members of the Church to be a prophecy. Joseph had previously prayed to God, asking when the Second Coming of Christ would be. In his own words, we read: "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: 'Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.'" He continued, "I was left to draw my own conclusion concerning this and I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live till that time, He would make His appearance." Roughly a month later, he stated, "Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that he would come."

It is entirely possible that Joseph believed that "56 years should wind up the scene." But, when analyzed with his other statements in mind, I don't believe he was making a prophecy at all. If I have invited company to come for dinner at 6:00, at 5:45, I might say to my husband, "Dave and Carol should be here in fifteen minutes." That would be my best guess, based on what time I told them to arrive and what I know about their punctuality. But if they didn't show up until 6:15, both my husband and I would just conclude that they were late.

A temple being built within Smiths generation
In The Doctrine and Covenants (Section 84) we read, "For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built until the Lord...." I'm assuming that's the "prophecy" you're thinking of. I can't help but wonder what the same individuals who call this a "false prophecy" have to say about Jesus Christ's words as recorded in Matthew 24:34. One of His disciples had asked Him what the signs of His return and of the end of the world would be. Jesus mentioned a number of signs. In fact, much of the chapter includes His enumeration of what they would be. Then, finally, He says, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." :eek: Whoa! Did Jesus Christ falsely prophesy of His Second Coming? If so, then Joseph Smith's not in bad company, is he, when he said that a temple would be built in "this generation."

I think of Section 84 of the D&C as being more of a commandment than a prophesy. As things turned out, the Latter-day Saints were forcibly driven from their homes before a temple was built. In D&C 124, the Lord says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings."

I believe the Lord would have been very pleased had a temple been completed earlier than it was, and that He wanted the Saints to show their devotion to Him by proceeding as if they fully intended to build it. But I don't see the fact that they were unable to as a "failed prophecy."

Just as a final note, if you'd like me to, I can point out some "false prophecies" by a couple of Old Testament prophets, too. :(
 
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Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if you're looking for a general explanation or for responses to these specific "prophecies." I'll respond the the first two and then wait for your answer before delving in deeper. Before I do, though, I'd just like to say that I agree with Jane's post #62, at least to the extent that I would suggest you not spend so much time trying to disprove Mormonism and a little bit more time studying its doctrines and teachings. You will always be able to find issues for which there seems to be no good answers, but I really think that this would be true regardless of which religion you're studying. I've been a Mormon my entire life, and I can still find reasons to doubt. I'm not saying that you should just ignore your doubts, just that you should put them into perspective. For every reason I can find to disbelieve Mormonism, I can find ten to believe it. I can let the one reason consume me or I can embrace the ten.

Don't get me wrong. I think the pendulum can (and often does) swing too far the other direction. I know of two women in my ward, both about my age, who have said to me, in essence, "I don't know. I've never really given it very much though -- I mean about whether the Church is true or not. My parents always told me it was. And I figure if it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me." It was all I could do not to lay into these women and ask them what on earth they were using their brains for, other than to decide what to fix for dinner. There are far too many Mormons who take that position, just as there are far too many non-Mormons who will stop at nothing to prove that Joseph Smith was a fraud and that Mormonism is a religion designed for idiots. Nobody should ever belong to a religion because their parents did.
Having said that, here are my answers to the first two "propheces" that supposedly "failed":

Critics of the Church have mentioned that Joseph Smith "prophesied" that "God had revealed to him that the coming of Christ would be within 56 years." Interestingly, we have no actual transcript of any sermon containing such a prophecy. There are references to a sermon in which Joseph was said to have mentioned "the coming of the Lord, which was nigh -- even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." Remember that we're getting this information second- and third-hand from several individuals whose recollections of the sermon have been combined into a single narrative and not from any original document.

But let's look at the events which led Joseph to make a statement that apparently was taken by at least some members of the Church to be a prophecy. Joseph had previously prayed to God, asking when the Second Coming of Christ would be. In his own words, we read: "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: 'Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.'" He continued, "I was left to draw my own conclusion concerning this and I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live till that time, He would make His appearance." Roughly a month later, he stated, "Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that he would come."

It is entirely possible that Joseph believed that "56 years should wind up the scene." But, when analyzed with his other statements in mind, I don't believe he was making a prophecy at all. If I have invited company to come for dinner at 6:00, at 5:45, I might say to my husband, "Dave and Carol should be here in fifteen minutes." That would be my best guess, based on what time I told them to arrive and what I know about their punctuality. But if they didn't show up until 6:15, both my husband and I would just conclude that they were late.

In The Doctrine and Covenants (Section 84) we read, "For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built until the Lord...." I'm assuming that's the "prophecy" you're thinking of. I can't help but wonder what the same individuals who call this a "false prophecy" have to say about Jesus Christ's words as recorded in Matthew 24:34. One of His disciples had asked Him what the signs of His return and of the end of the world would be. Jesus mentioned a number of signs. In fact, much of the chapter includes His enumeration of what they would be. Then, finally, He says, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." :eek: Whoa! Did Jesus Christ falsely prophesy of His Second Coming? If so, then Joseph Smith's not in bad company, is he, when he said that a temple would be built in "this generation."

I think of Section 84 of the D&C as being more of a commandment than a prophesy. As things turned out, the Latter-day Saints were forcibly driven from their homes before a temple was built. In D&C 124, the Lord says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings."

I believe the Lord would have been very pleased had a temple been completed earlier than it was, and that He wanted the Saints to show their devotion to Him by proceeding as if they fully intended to build it. But I don't see the fact that they were unable to as a "failed prophecy."

Just as a final note, if you'd like me to, I can point out some "false prophecies" by a couple of Old Testament prophets, too. :(

Thanks Katz! I was asking to see if LDS do see them as prophecies or not. Some of them are quoted from the D&C and I couldn't remember if that was all Prophecy?

It's not that I am trying to disprove Mormonism more that I believe that if something is true, it will stand firm against criticism. It's also so that I don't come across any surprises if I did rejoin the church. It's also just how I research something or look for the truth. I find the criticisms and then go to the faithful to find out the truth about what they believe (as opposed to what critics think they believe best example is protestants thinking Catholics worship Mary, they don't)
 

Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if you're looking for a general explanation or for responses to these specific "prophecies." I'll respond the the first two and then wait for your answer before delving in deeper. Before I do, though, I'd just like to say that I agree with Jane's post #62, at least to the extent that I would suggest you not spend so much time trying to disprove Mormonism and a little bit more time studying its doctrines and teachings. You will always be able to find issues for which there seems to be no good answers, but I really think that this would be true regardless of which religion you're studying. I've been a Mormon my entire life, and I can still find reasons to doubt. I'm not saying that you should just ignore your doubts, just that you should put them into perspective. For every reason I can find to disbelieve Mormonism, I can find ten to believe it. I can let the one reason consume me or I can embrace the ten.

Don't get me wrong. I think the pendulum can (and often does) swing too far the other direction. I know of two women in my ward, both about my age, who have said to me, in essence, "I don't know. I've never really given it very much though -- I mean about whether the Church is true or not. My parents always told me it was. And I figure if it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me." It was all I could do not to lay into these women and ask them what on earth they were using their brains for, other than to decide what to fix for dinner. There are far too many Mormons who take that position, just as there are far too many non-Mormons who will stop at nothing to prove that Joseph Smith was a fraud and that Mormonism is a religion designed for idiots. Nobody should ever belong to a religion because their parents did.
Having said that, here are my answers to the first two "propheces" that supposedly "failed":

Critics of the Church have mentioned that Joseph Smith "prophesied" that "God had revealed to him that the coming of Christ would be within 56 years." Interestingly, we have no actual transcript of any sermon containing such a prophecy. There are references to a sermon in which Joseph was said to have mentioned "the coming of the Lord, which was nigh -- even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." Remember that we're getting this information second- and third-hand from several individuals whose recollections of the sermon have been combined into a single narrative and not from any original document.

But let's look at the events which led Joseph to make a statement that apparently was taken by at least some members of the Church to be a prophecy. Joseph had previously prayed to God, asking when the Second Coming of Christ would be. In his own words, we read: "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: 'Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.'" He continued, "I was left to draw my own conclusion concerning this and I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live till that time, He would make His appearance." Roughly a month later, he stated, "Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that he would come."

It is entirely possible that Joseph believed that "56 years should wind up the scene." But, when analyzed with his other statements in mind, I don't believe he was making a prophecy at all. If I have invited company to come for dinner at 6:00, at 5:45, I might say to my husband, "Dave and Carol should be here in fifteen minutes." That would be my best guess, based on what time I told them to arrive and what I know about their punctuality. But if they didn't show up until 6:15, both my husband and I would just conclude that they were late.

In The Doctrine and Covenants (Section 84) we read, "For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built until the Lord...." I'm assuming that's the "prophecy" you're thinking of. I can't help but wonder what the same individuals who call this a "false prophecy" have to say about Jesus Christ's words as recorded in Matthew 24:34. One of His disciples had asked Him what the signs of His return and of the end of the world would be. Jesus mentioned a number of signs. In fact, much of the chapter includes His enumeration of what they would be. Then, finally, He says, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." :eek: Whoa! Did Jesus Christ falsely prophesy of His Second Coming? If so, then Joseph Smith's not in bad company, is he, when he said that a temple would be built in "this generation."

I think of Section 84 of the D&C as being more of a commandment than a prophesy. As things turned out, the Latter-day Saints were forcibly driven from their homes before a temple was built. In D&C 124, the Lord says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings."

I believe the Lord would have been very pleased had a temple been completed earlier than it was, and that He wanted the Saints to show their devotion to Him by proceeding as if they fully intended to build it. But I don't see the fact that they were unable to as a "failed prophecy."

Just as a final note, if you'd like me to, I can point out some "false prophecies" by a couple of Old Testament prophets, too. :(

Thanks Katz! I was asking to see if LDS do see them as prophecies or not. Some of them are quoted from the D&C and I couldn't remember if that was all Prophecy?

It's not that I am trying to disprove Mormonism more that I believe that if something is true, it will stand firm against criticism. It's also so that I don't come across any surprises if I did rejoin the church. It's also just how I research something or look for the truth. I find the criticisms and then go to the faithful to find out the truth about what they believe (as opposed to what critics think they believe best example is protestants thinking Catholics worship Mary, they don't)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It's not that I am trying to disprove Mormonism more that I believe that if something is true, it will stand firm against criticism. It's also so that I don't come across any surprises if I did rejoin the church. It's also just how I research something or look for the truth.
I know. I probably came across as being more critical than I intended to be. You not only have a right to question, you have a responsibility to question. I guess what I was trying to say is that the questions, concerns, issues and doubts will probably never end. It's something you have to be prepared to deal with for as long as you want to keep learning. If you look for dirt, you're going to find dirt. If you look for truth and beauty, you'll find truth a beauty. Let your focus be on understanding the doctrines that are taught and believed (as opposed to the character flaws of either the prophets or the popes, because none of them have ever been perfect).

I find the criticisms and then go to the faithful to find out the truth about what they believe (as opposed to what critics think they believe best example is protestants thinking Catholics worship Mary, they don't)
That's going to be your best avenue for accurate information, regardless of which church you're studying. And yes, I know that there is also a lot of false information out there about Catholicism. It's unfortunate that Christians have to resort to bad-mouthing one another.
 

Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
I know. I probably came across as being more critical than I intended to be. You not only have a right to question, you have a responsibility to question. I guess what I was trying to say is that the questions, concerns, issues and doubts will probably never end. It's something you have to be prepared to deal with for as long as you want to keep learning. If you look for dirt, you're going to find dirt. If you look for truth and beauty, you'll find truth a beauty. Let your focus be on understanding the doctrines that are taught and believed (as opposed to the character flaws of either the prophets or the popes, because none of them have ever been perfect).

That's going to be your best avenue for accurate information, regardless of which church you're studying. And yes, I know that there is also a lot of false information out there about Catholicism. It's unfortunate that Christians have to resort to bad-mouthing one another.

It's OK :) you are right, regardless of religion, there will be something to cause doubt. I always find it strange how certain Christians accuse Mormons of relying too much on faith (or as they say "feelings") when there are plenty of arguments atheists would put forward to Christianity in its entirety which requires Christians to have and rely on faith!
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Connected to prophecies actually is the 14 fundamentals of the prophet

https://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

Number 2 and Number 6 are ones I struggle with. Especially as 6 seems to suggest (especially reading the article) that anything a prophet says can be taken as scripture.
Okay, how do I say this? Let's start, not with #2 or #6, but with #1, which states: "The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything." Well, guess what? Ezra Taft Benson was not even the prophet at that time, meaning that #2 through #14 were not being spoken by the "only man who speaks for the Lord in everything." In President Benson's defense, I'm sure he was speaking on a subject that was near and dear to his heart, and expressing his beliefs on that subject. It was an address given at Brigham Young University, not an address directed to the Church as a whole as a "doctrinal statement." It was not an address that necessarily represented the opinions of the President of the Church, his two counselors or the other eleven members of the Quorum of the Twelve.

As to the two fundamentals that bother you most, let's look at #2, which states, "The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works." I think I know where he's coming from, and I believe this statement is closely tied to #3 ("The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.") The Church, as you know, is founded on the concept that the Lord has not stopped speaking to the members of His Church. Our beliefs are not stagnant. If the Lord chooses to reveal something to us in this day and age, He will do so by communicating His will to the President of the Church. If He were to reveal new doctrine, it would understandably be something that was not already in the Standard Works. A new doctrine or even a new policy that was of great significance (as was the revelation granting Black men the right to hold the priesthood) will generally be added to the Doctrine & Covenants at some point. So, in this respect, the words of the living prophet would be "more vital" in that they are "more current." This more or less explains point #3, as well.

What you may not understand yet is how a new doctrine would come to be established in the first place. The Lord would reveal the doctrine to the Prophet/President of the Church. This would more than likely be as a result of the Prophet having specifically prayed for guidance or direction on a specific issue. Revelations seldom come out of the blue. The Prophet would then present this revelation to his counselors and to the Quorum of the Twelve. Together these fifteen men would fast and pray. The apostles would ask the Lord to confirm to them, through the witness of the Holy Ghost, that what the Prophet had presented as being a revelation was, in fact, what he claimed it to be, and not just some idea he had that he wanted to formalize as doctrine for future generations. When all fifteen were on the same page (whether it be a matter of hours, days, weeks or months), then and only then would the "revelation" be accepted as doctrine, binding upon the members of the Church as the word of the Lord. Now, not only do all fifteen have to be in agreement, but the initial revelation must come through the Prophet and not through any of the other fourteen. The Lord would never reveal a new doctrine to the Church through one of the Apostles, with the Prophet hearing about it second-hand through that Apostle. The way the Church operates, there is a system of safeguards to prevent false doctrine from being perpetuated. Here are three statements by some of our leaders that you may find interesting in this regard:

"An individual may fall by the wayside, or have views, or give counsel which falls short of what the Lord intends. But the voice of the First Presidency and the united voice of those others who hold with them the keys of the kingdom shall always guide the Saints and the world in those paths where the Lord wants them to be." (former President Joseph Fielding Smith)

"Revelations from God . . . are not constant. We believe in continuing revelation, not continuous revelation. We are often left to work out problems without the dictation or specific direction of the Spirit. That is part of the experience we must have in mortality. Fortunately, we are never out of our Savior's sight, and if our judgment leads us to actions beyond the limits of what is permissible and if we are listening, . . . the Lord will restrain us by the promptings of his Spirit." (Elder Dallin Oaks, Apostle)

"Even with the best of intentions, [Church government] does not always work the way it should. Human nature may express itself on occasion, but not to the permanent injury of the work." (Boyd K. Packer, former President of the Quorum of the Twelve)

With respect top #6 ("The prophet does not have to say, 'Thus saith the Lord' to give us scripture.") While that is probably true, he definitely does have to do more than just express his opinions on a subject. Here's what you will find on the Church's website with respect to approaching Church doctrine:
  • Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency(the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
  • Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.
Finally, here is an excellent article: What is LDS Doctrine?
Are Prophets Infallible? Statements by Church leaders is also very good.

I hope this helps.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It's OK :) you are right, regardless of religion, there will be something to cause doubt. I always find it strange how certain Christians accuse Mormons of relying too much on faith (or as they say "feelings") when there are plenty of arguments atheists would put forward to Christianity in its entirety which requires Christians to have and rely on faith!
Here's what my answer would be to those folks:

John 20:19-29 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
 
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Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
Here's an interesting article that just barely came out: The Catholic Professor Who Championed Mormon Christianity Until His Death.

Oooh that is interesting :)

Okay, how do I say this? Let's start, not with #2 or #6, but with #1, which states: "The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything." Well, guess what? Ezra Taft Benson was not even the prophet at that time, meaning that #2 through #14 were not being spoken by the "only man who speaks for the Lord in everything." In President Benson's defense, I'm sure he was speaking on a subject that was near and dear to his heart, and expressing his beliefs on that subject. It was an address given at Brigham Young University, not an address directed to the Church as a whole as a "doctrinal statement." It was not an address that necessarily represented the opinions of the President of the Church, his two counselors or the other eleven members of the Quorum of the Twelve.

As to the two fundamentals that bother you most, let's look at #2, which states, "The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works." I think I know where he's coming from, and I believe this statement is closely tied to #3 ("The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.") The Church, as you know, is founded on the concept that the Lord has not stopped speaking to the members of His Church. Our beliefs are not stagnant. If the Lord chooses to reveal something to us in this day and age, He will do so by communicating His will to the President of the Church. If He were to reveal new doctrine, it would understandably be something that was not already in the Standard Works. A new doctrine or even a new policy that was of great significance (as was the revelation granting Black men the right to hold the priesthood) will generally be added to the Doctrine & Covenants at some point. So, in this respect, the words of the living prophet would be "more vital" in that they are "more current." This more or less explains point #3, as well.

What you may not understand yet is how a new doctrine would come to be established in the first place. The Lord would reveal the doctrine to the Prophet/President of the Church. This would more than likely be as a result of the Prophet having specifically prayed for guidance or direction on a specific issue. Revelations seldom come out of the blue. The Prophet would then present this revelation to his counselors and to the Quorum of the Twelve. Together these fifteen men would fast and pray. The apostles would ask the Lord to confirm to them, through the witness of the Holy Ghost, that what the Prophet had presented as being a revelation was, in fact, what he claimed it to be, and not just some idea he had that he wanted to formalize as doctrine for future generations. When all fifteen were on the same page (whether it be a matter of hours, days, weeks or months), then and only then would the "revelation" be accepted as doctrine, binding upon the members of the Church as the word of the Lord. Now, not only do all fifteen have to be in agreement, but the initial revelation must come through the Prophet and not through any of the other fourteen. The Lord would never reveal a new doctrine to the Church through one of the Apostles, with the Prophet hearing about it second-hand through that Apostle. The way the Church operates, there is a system of safeguards to prevent false doctrine from being perpetuated. Here are three statements by some of our leaders that you may find interesting in this regard:

"An individual may fall by the wayside, or have views, or give counsel which falls short of what the Lord intends. But the voice of the First Presidency and the united voice of those others who hold with them the keys of the kingdom shall always guide the Saints and the world in those paths where the Lord wants them to be." (former President Joseph Fielding Smith)

"Revelations from God . . . are not constant. We believe in continuing revelation, not continuous revelation. We are often left to work out problems without the dictation or specific direction of the Spirit. That is part of the experience we must have in mortality. Fortunately, we are never out of our Savior's sight, and if our judgment leads us to actions beyond the limits of what is permissible and if we are listening, . . . the Lord will restrain us by the promptings of his Spirit." (Elder Dallin Oaks, Apostle)

"Even with the best of intentions, [Church government] does not always work the way it should. Human nature may express itself on occasion, but not to the permanent injury of the work." (Boyd K. Packer, former President of the Quorum of the Twelve)

With respect top #6 ("The prophet does not have to say, 'Thus saith the Lord' to give us scripture.") While that is probably true, he definitely does have to do more than just express his opinions on a subject. Here's what you will find on the Church's website with respect to approaching Church doctrine:
  • Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency(the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
  • Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.
Finally, here is an excellent article: What is LDS Doctrine?
Are Prophets Infallible? Statements by Church leaders is also very good.

I hope this helps.

Thanks Katz, that article was helpful! It also answered a question I was about to ask which is can new revelation go against the standard works? I think the answer is no after reading that article!
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Thanks Katz, that article was helpful! It also answered a question I was about to ask which is can new revelation go against the standard works? I think the answer is no after reading that article!
You're right. The answer is "no." There is a caveat to that, though. When Jesus Christ preached a gospel of unconditional love and forgiveness, that could have been said to "go against" what the Old Testament had previously said about "an eye for an eye." So, as people are ready to receive new information and to obey new laws, some things that God might say could be construed to "go against" something He'd previously said. The doctrines themselves (i.e. eternal truths) will never change, but the commandments we are expected to live by conceivably could.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I just noticed this:
Is this right... Lehi was a lamanite? From middle East? Came to America?
Lehi was the father of both Nephi and Laman, for whom the Nephites and Lamanites were named. He was from the house of Israel, and came from the Middle East to the American continent, but while he was certainly supportive of his son, Nephi, I don't really think of him as a Nephite, and he most definitely would not have been a Lamanite.
 

Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
Speaking of blacks holding the priesthood. I know it was a revelation which allowed it to occur but was it a revelation to prevent it in the first place? Or was it a badly placed cultural belief that was set right with a revelation?

This has nothing to do with doctrines but just curious - what percentage of the young men of the church go on missions? (I know quite a few women go now too!) Also say if they wanted to gain a degree, do they go on a mission first and then do their degree? (I couldn't remember if it's usually 18 or 19 that they go)
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
Speaking of blacks holding the priesthood. I know it was a revelation which allowed it to occur but was it a revelation to prevent it in the first place? Or was it a badly placed cultural belief that was set right with a revelation?

The bolded part is correct. A really good official LDS essay on the topic: https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

This has nothing to do with doctrines but just curious - what percentage of the young men of the church go on missions? (I know quite a few women go now too!)

In 2015, I'd estimate that it's about 80-90% for the young men and ~50% for the women. Note: this is a completely ballpark guess on my part, with no hard stats. I'm also talking about young people whom are active in their faith, not those whom are on the rolls only.

Also say if they wanted to gain a degree, do they go on a mission first and then do their degree?

Totally, most do in fact, including all of my siblings. If you go to an LDS school, they hold your spot, your scholarships, and everything else. A non-LDS school will also hold your spot, but scholarships can be trickier.

(I couldn't remember if it's usually 18 or 19 that they go)

They actually just changed that a few years ago! (2013). Previously is was 19 for men, 21 for girls. Now it's 18 for men and 19 for girls (requiring GED for both).
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The bolded part is correct. A really good official LDS essay on the topic: https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

In 2015, I'd estimate that it's about 80-90% for the young men and ~50% for the women. Note: this is a completely ballpark guess on my part, with no hard stats. I'm also talking about young people whom are active in their faith, not those whom are on the rolls only.

Totally, most do in fact, including all of my siblings. If you go to an LDS school, they hold your spot, your scholarships, and everything else. A non-LDS school will also hold your spot, but scholarships can be trickier.

They actually just changed that a few years ago! (2013). Previously is was 19 for men, 21 for girls. Now it's 18 for men and 19 for girls (requiring GED for both).
I knew I should have gotten up a half hour earlier. You beat me to the punch this time, Jane. Good job! Excellent answers.
 

Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
Hi all,

I now have a month old little girl as well as my toddler hence I disappeared again. I'm still thinking about things though.

I was just wondering if any of you had teachings of the church that you have found tricky at times but have overcome them and how you did that?
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
I was just wondering if any of you had teachings of the church that you have found tricky at times but have overcome them and how you did that?
Very much so! Overcoming them is different for each one. The common ingredients would be time, patience/forgiveness with myself (I can be horrible self-critic), praying, reflecting, know that it does't have to a the "classic" answer, and listening.
 
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