For LDS only...some tricky questions

[Katzpur]

While I was putting the kid's to bed, we had some sister missionaries knock on the door. As we were in the middle of bedtime my hubby answered and not thinking didn't invite them in (he knows I would always offer them a drink and food) but he asked for their number so I might invite them over for a chat at some point.

I've just got to say that your husband sounds like a pretty okay guy. A lot of atheists are very much opposed to their spouse's interest in religion and aren't as thoughtful in that regard as yours appears to be.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I've just got to say that your husband sounds like a pretty okay guy. A lot of atheists are very much opposed to their spouse's interest in religion and aren't as thoughtful in that regard as yours appears to be.

He is great When he does ask questions, I do have to remind him that he doesnt have to start every question with "this doesnt interest me but...." Ive told him that is my default assumption.

Hes actually told me that he wouldnt mind if I decided to return to mormonism, his only concern is that it has parts that are not talked about (The Temple). I was talking to him the other day about it as I was saying how my perspective has changed a lot. When I left, I was so angry at one of the memebers, it tainted my view of the whole church and I may have called it a certain term... I said to my husband the other day that from a secular perspective at least, there isnt anything weird or wacky that goes on in mormonism, at which point he offered "like sacraficing your first born" - yep definitely dont do that! But like I said he is concered about the "secrecy" surrounding the temple as while he understands why I dont view mormonism as a cult, he talked about group thinking/atmosphere (I didnt fully understand what he meant)

 

[Katzpur]

I said to my husband the other day that from a secular perspective at least, there isnt anything weird or wacky that goes on in mormonism, at which point he offered "like sacraficing your first born" - yep definitely dont do that!

On the other hand -- though it's definitely not a tenet of Mormonism -- by the time your firstborn is a teenager, you may very well have a change of heart in that regard. My advise to you is that, when that happens, just hang it there. He'll grow out of it.

 

[Jane.Doe]

his only concern is that it has parts that are not talked about (The Temple).
....
But like I said he is concered about the "secrecy" surrounding the temple

When I was seriously studying & contemplating going to the temple (I spent 6 years doing this), I was frustrated with this too. Extremely. But then I realized actually you can talk about majority of temple stuff freely outside of the temple: things like principles of faith, agency, commitment, creation, fall, salvation, etc. It's more just the specifics which are not talked about outside of a temple venue.

In a way it's very similar to martial intimacy. My husband and I engage in very sacred acts together which strengthen our relationship. It is not secret that these acts occur, but due to their sacredness I'm unwilling to discuss the details with a public audience. I'm happy to discuss the broader concepts with everyone: things like love, commitment, and having an open heart. I wish that someday everyone else will be able to experience this joy in the appropriate place/time/readiness.

It's 100% the same with the temple.

I was talking to him the other day about it as I was saying how my perspective has changed a lot. When I left, I was so angry at one of the memebers, it tainted my view of the whole church and I may have called it a certain term...

I can %100 understand that from personal experience.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

When I was seriously studying & contemplating going to the temple (I spent 6 years doing this), I was frustrated with this too. Extremely. But then I realized actually you can talk about majority of temple stuff freely outside of the temple: things like principles of faith, agency, commitment, creation, fall, salvation, etc. It's more just the specifics which are not talked about outside of a temple venue.

In a way it's very similar to martial intimacy. My husband and I engage in very sacred acts together which strengthen our relationship. It is not secret that these acts occur, but due to their sacredness I'm unwilling to discuss the details with a public audience. I'm happy to discuss the broader concepts with everyone: things like love, commitment, and having an open heart. I wish that someday everyone else will be able to experience this joy in the appropriate place/time/readiness.

It's 100% the same with the temple.


I can %100 understand that from personal experience.

Jane, you mentioned that you were in a mixed faith marriage? Can I ask were you LDS when you met your husband? What faith is he (if any?). How do you find being in a mixed faith marriage as LDS?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Is it true that the word of wisdom says that meat should only be eaten in times of winter, cold or famine? If so why is this part not followed?

 

[Katzpur]

Is it true that the word of wisdom says that meat should only be eaten in times of winter, cold or famine? If so why is this part not followed?

Yes, it's true. D&C 89:12-13 says, "Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." In theory, I suppose, no one verse of scripture should carry more weight than another, so your question is definitely a legitimate one. Perhaps some other poster will be able to give you a better answer, but I look at it in much the same way as I look at the Ten Commandments. The seventh commandment says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Christians and Jews alike take that one pretty seriously, and most of us would judge someone who was guilty of adultery pretty harshly (even if we didn't do so publicly). The tenth commandment says, "Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is thy neighbor's." When growing up, I learned that this meant you should not have a strong desire for something belonging to your neighbor (even if you do not act on this desire). What Christian do you know who actually keeps this commandment? For whatever reason, we all seem to see it as a suggestion rather than a commandment, and yet there is no real reason for us to delegate it to a position of lesser importance than the other commandments. Maybe we realize that eating a lot of meat isn't as dangerous as smoking, in the same way that we understand that coveting our neighbor's new car isn't quite as serious as actually stealing it. If someone can come up with a truly logical reason why Mormons focus on some parts of the Word of Wisdom while they neglect other parts, I'd certainly like to hear it.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Yes, it's true. D&C 89:12-13 says, "Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." In theory, I suppose, no one verse of scripture should carry more weight than another, so your question is definitely a legitimate one. Perhaps some other poster will be able to give you a better answer, but I look at it in much the same way as I look at the Ten Commandments. The seventh commandment says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Christians and Jews alike take that one pretty seriously, and most of us would judge someone who was guilty of adultery pretty harshly (even if we didn't do so publicly). The tenth commandment says, "Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is thy neighbor's." When growing up, I learned that this meant you should not have a strong desire for something belonging to your neighbor (even if you do not act on this desire). What Christian do you know who actually keeps this commandment? For whatever reason, we all seem to see it as a suggestion rather than a commandment, and yet there is no real reason for us to delegate it to a position of lesser importance than the other commandments. Maybe we realize that eating a lot of meat isn't as dangerous as smoking, in the same way that we understand that coveting our neighbor's new car isn't quite as serious as actually stealing it. If someone can come up with a truly logical reason why Mormons focus on some parts of the Word of Wisdom while they neglect other parts, I'd certainly like to hear it.

I see what you are trying to say but Im not sure.. I think its less that Christians dont view it as a commandment and more that we are all sinners who sometimes fall short especily ones that involve thought and not actions. Ive always thought that our minds are trickier to control than our actions. Not desiring a neighbours things will be accepted as a commandment just difficult to follow but it seems that that part of the word of wisdom has been completely disregarded. So I cant see the similarity between the two?

 

[Katzpur]

I see what you are trying to say but Im not sure.. I think its less that Christians dont view it as a commandment and more that we are all sinners who sometimes fall short especily ones that involve thought and not actions. Ive always thought that our minds are trickier to control than our actions.

Our minds are definitely trickier to control than our actions. I'll give you that. I just don't think that most Christians even feel a twinge of guilt when they commit the sin of coveting. I'd be willing to bet that not one in a thousand thinks, "Oh, man. I'm guilty of coveting. I've got to work on that."

Not desiring a neighbours things will be accepted as a commandment just difficult to follow but it seems that that part of the word of wisdom has been completely disregarded. So I cant see the similarity between the two?

And I see what you're saying. I think that what I said in my previous post (about most of us recognizing that eating meat isn't as harmful as smoking) is probably the reason. But don't get me started on the Word of Wisdom, as I feel it is very overemphasized. After all, in the D&C, it is specifically stated that it is not being given as a commandment. I know it's considered one today, but I'm not totally on board with that idea. I think it's excellent advice, but that's about all, and I don't believe that having a cup of coffee or a glass of wine should be grounds for denying a person a temple recommend. But that's just me, being my typical "not your average Mormon" self.

As a bit of an afterthought, I wonder what my bishop would say if I answered the temple recommend question, "Do you live the Word of Wisdom?" by saying, "No, bishop, I don't. I probably eat meat anywhere from 3-5 times a week all year long."

 

[Katzpur]

Hey, Truth... I have a question for you. How come you're considering both Catholicism and Mormonism and not Anglicanism?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Hey, Truth... I have a question for you. How come you're considering both Catholicism and Mormonism and not Anglicanism?

While I am still trying to figure out some of my beliefs, I am against women as priests which is something anglicanism (Church of England in my case) allows. Its also a church that follows the wants of society as opposed to God. Its also odd that the CofE was basically created because one man wanted a divorce which the catholic church wouldnt grant. Why do you ask?

 

[Jane.Doe]

Jane, you mentioned that you were in a mixed faith marriage? Can I ask were you LDS when you met your husband?

Truth_Faith13, I welcome any question of your about my faith or marriage. If you do ask something I'm unwilling to answer, I'll just say so and skip the needlessly-getting-offended silliness.

I actually met my husband on my 13th birthday: I kicked a soccer ball straight in my face and got us both banned from playing any more soccer at recess. At the time I was very active LDS and he had a huge crush on my (non-LDS) friend.

We were distant friends for the following decade, going through the teenage/undergrad roller coaster. Part of my roller coaster was getting very sick of LDS people and walking away from the church for several years. I never abdicated my relationship with the Church, but purposely quit attending and put a large distance us. I needed space. If you want I can elaborate on this story.

Husband-to-be didn't ask me out until we were 23 (at which point I burst into tears--- NOT the proper way to answer a guy!). At the time I was working my way back to the church, very cautiously. I was not attending regularly. Getting married at 25 I was kind of at a "halfway" point. Now we are 30, married, and have a adorable little one. Over that time I have come back to full activity in the Church.

My husband is very supportive of me in my faith, though he's not thrilled about having me be gone some Sunday mornings. I went to the temple for me endowment this summer (after 5 years of contemplating it) and he was very supportive with me about it. He admittedly doesn't "get it" himself, but "it makes you happy and I want to support you in what makes you happy". He will come with me to church on special occasions (like Christmas).

What faith is he (if any?).

Inactive non-denominational Christian.

How do you find being in a mixed faith marriage as LDS?

Oh beware the Evangelical mother-in-law!

I'm half joking. On a more serious note, the key is communication and supporting each other. My husband and I talk freely about faith, have each other's back, and things are very good. My Evangelical MIL is not open to communication about faith, and that causes her a lot of pain (she has a lot of false notions about the LDS faith). I deeply wish she would be open to hearing about my relationship with Christ.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Yes, it's true. D&C 89:12-13 says, "Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine." In theory, I suppose, no one verse of scripture should carry more weight than another, so your question is definitely a legitimate one. Perhaps some other poster will be able to give you a better answer, but I look at it in much the same way as I look at the Ten Commandments. The seventh commandment says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Christians and Jews alike take that one pretty seriously, and most of us would judge someone who was guilty of adultery pretty harshly (even if we didn't do so publicly). The tenth commandment says, "Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is thy neighbor's." When growing up, I learned that this meant you should not have a strong desire for something belonging to your neighbor (even if you do not act on this desire). What Christian do you know who actually keeps this commandment? For whatever reason, we all seem to see it as a suggestion rather than a commandment, and yet there is no real reason for us to delegate it to a position of lesser importance than the other commandments. Maybe we realize that eating a lot of meat isn't as dangerous as smoking, in the same way that we understand that coveting our neighbor's new car isn't quite as serious as actually stealing it. If someone can come up with a truly logical reason why Mormons focus on some parts of the Word of Wisdom while they neglect other parts, I'd certainly like to hear it.

My personal take on it is that this particular verse was originally more applicable to agricultural society, where famine had a more active presence. In industrialized countries nowadays we have far more death due to overeating (aka obesity) than famine.

Another interesting factoid is that it is much more environmentally friendly to eat non-meat products. The reasoning being that for everyone 1 lb of meat you eat the cow/pig/chicken had to eat 10 lbs of grain. Alternatively you could have just eaten the 10 lbs of grain and gotten 10x the calories.

 

[Katzpur]

While I am still trying to figure out some of my beliefs, I am against women as priests which is something anglicanism (Church of England in my case) allows. Its also a church that follows the wants of society as opposed to God. Its also odd that the CofE was basically created because one man wanted a divorce which the catholic church wouldnt grant. Why do you ask?

I ask primarily because it just seems as if it would be the default position for someone who is British. I can understand why it's not, though. Here's a little story I read a long time ago. I think it will be meaningful to you. It kind of expresses my feelings on the subject, and to a certain extent, they mirror yours:

"Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue's end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: 'You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don't even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that's all there is to it. The Protestants haven't a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us: while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism: but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism's attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days.' " (From The Strength of the Mormon Position by Orson F. Whitney)

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Our minds are definitely trickier to control than our actions. I'll give you that. I just don't think that most Christians even feel a twinge of guilt when they commit the sin of coveting. I'd be willing to bet that not one in a thousand thinks, "Oh, man. I'm guilty of coveting. I've got to work on that."

And I see what you're saying. I think that what I said in my previous post (about most of us recognizing that eating meat isn't as harmful as smoking) is probably the reason. But don't get me started on the Word of Wisdom, as I feel it is very overemphasized. After all, in the D&C, it is specifically stated that it is not being given as a commandment. I know it's considered one today, but I'm not totally on board with that idea. I think it's excellent advice, but that's about all, and I don't believe that having a cup of coffee or a glass of wine should be grounds for denying a person a temple recommend. But that's just me, being my typical "not your average Mormon" self.

As a bit of an afterthought, I wonder what my bishop would say if I answered the temple recommend question, "Do you live the Word of Wisdom?" by saying, "No, bishop, I don't. I probably eat meat anywhere from 3-5 times a week all year long."

Youve just reminded me of something I struggle with in both mormonism and catholicism. As both accept apostolic succession, they believe the leaders of the church have the power to bind and loose so you have scenarios where something which isnt actually a commandment from God is necessary for the member of the church to follow. They both have principles/disciplines which are not commandments but still have to be followed.

How do you not struggle with it and remain confident that the Church is true? Even though I understand apostolic succession and the keys to the kingdom etc, I have always struggled with this concept and it always makes me question the church as a whole whether catholicism or mormonism?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I ask primarily because it just seems as if it would be the default position for someone who is British. I can understand why it's not, though. Here's a little story I read a long time ago. I think it will be meaningful to you. It kind of expresses my feelings on the subject, and to a certain extent, they mirror yours:

"Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue's end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: 'You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don't even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that's all there is to it. The Protestants haven't a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us: while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism: but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism's attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days.' " (From The Strength of the Mormon Position by Orson F. Whitney)

Yes! While I still have issues with both mormonism and catholicism, I believe one of them is the Church Christ founded, I just need to decide which one!!

Others have got their good points like good worship music which makes you feel good but none have much truth of the gospel.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Truth_Faith13, I welcome any question of your about my faith or marriage. If you do ask something I'm unwilling to answer, I'll just say so and skip the needlessly-getting-offended silliness.

I actually met my husband on my 13th birthday: I kicked a soccer ball straight in my face and got us both banned from playing any more soccer at recess. At the time I was very active LDS and he had a huge crush on my (non-LDS) friend.

We were distant friends for the following decade, going through the teenage/undergrad roller coaster. Part of my roller coaster was getting very sick of LDS people and walking away from the church for several years. I never abdicated my relationship with the Church, but purposely quit attending and put a large distance us. I needed space. If you want I can elaborate on this story.

Husband-to-be didn't ask me out until we were 23 (at which point I burst into tears--- NOT the proper way to answer a guy!). At the time I was working my way back to the church, very cautiously. I was not attending regularly. Getting married at 25 I was kind of at a "halfway" point. Now we are 30, married, and have a adorable little one. Over that time I have come back to full activity in the Church.

My husband is very supportive of me in my faith, though he's not thrilled about having me be gone some Sunday mornings. I went to the temple for me endowment this summer (after 5 years of contemplating it) and he was very supportive with me about it. He admittedly doesn't "get it" himself, but "it makes you happy and I want to support you in what makes you happy". He will come with me to church on special occasions (like Christmas).


Inactive non-denominational Christian.


Oh beware the Evangelical mother-in-law!

I'm half joking. On a more serious note, the key is communication and supporting each other. My husband and I talk freely about faith, have each other's back, and things are very good. My Evangelical MIL is not open to communication about faith, and that causes her a lot of pain (she has a lot of false notions about the LDS faith). I deeply wish she would be open to hearing about my relationship with Christ.

Could you elaborate on the story of why you left please?

Do you take your child to church with you?

 

[Jane.Doe]

Do you take your child to church with you?

Yep, she's a good girl. And when she isn't... well all the other parents thank me because my daughter is temporarily screaming louder than theirs If I ned help with the child-herding duty, I just ask.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Could you elaborate on the story of why you left please?

This is going to be a long story, but might also help address some of your other questions....

When I was very young I was brutally sexually abused by a teacher and ultimately I attacked back, hospitalizing him. This left much secret baggage on my young heart and I became sucicidally depressed by the first grade. In a way I hated the kids around me-- I viewed them as naive and incapable of understanding my reality. And there was no way I was going to trust an adult-- I thought they would kill me like I deserved. I just wanted everyone to leave me alone.

The one person who was capable of understanding my pain was God. The Gospel was my lifeline, and the only way I made it through that tough time. When I was baptized at 8, I had a vibrant personal testimony of how Christ was a SAVIOR. I had become somewhat healed: the wounds were still there but they were bandaged and I could go about my life. Dating? Heck no!! I became extremely hostile at the lear suggestion and the scent of a hormonal guy. I would never forget that scent.

When I went away to college, I went AWAY- thousands of miles to get away from family drama. I was finally alone (yeah!), free from family/friend "baggage". "Baggage" = a support network of people you can talk to a least about the little things. I emotionally crashed straight into the ground. I HATED the undergrads around me, so obsessed with their naive stupid dating games and trying to be friends. The Kiera Knightly "Pride and Prejudice" movie had just came out, and it was a raving fad- and I had to hear about "Mr. Darcy" one more time.... I told them Mr. Darcy was a liar and would stab them through, but no one believed me, and thought I was sick. Sigh, such naive fools divorced from reality.

(Note: in case it's not obvious I'm writing from that old clouded perspective in this post, to show the mindset).

Now, what does this have to do with Church? I was at BYU-Idaho, hating my life. I hated the obsession with dating. I hated the fact that people kept smiling and be to be nice to me. I hated the fact that no one would curse me out and be "real". I hated the fact that they hid their own wounds (I was really good a recognizing such deception). I hated their (what I viewed as) shallow testimonies.

To further complicate things, at BYU-Idaho, church/school/culture very much blend together. So I hated them too. I hated all of the stupid non-Gospel rules that are unique to BYU-Idaho quirks, but they tried to use the Gospel to defend it. I hated how people would falsely use the Gospel to defend their own obsession with "Mr. Darcy". No one understood reality, no one was real, no one understood me. All they did all day long was lie with smiles. Church authorities were teachers- heck no way I was going to trust a teacher again! I just wanted to be left alone...

It became very hard to separate the Gospel from culture-quirks from my depression. I despised the culture, the non-Gospel rules, the extravert-ness of it all. Church meetings became so painful I gradually stopped going and became hostile to the prospect. I left BYU-Idaho to save myself from suicidal depression. Did I have a plan? Nope. And so I promptly got berated by my entire family, whom viewed my leaving as me BYU-Idaho as abandoning the Gospel, any college dreams, and any hope of marriage. They did not understand. And heck no, there's no way I was going back to church!

So yeah, that's the story of why I left.




Epilogue to the story: therapy is amazing. God has had my back to much: directly, and indirectly through the use of other humans (therapist, friends, my now husband etc). I am now fully healed. This story is the past, and bears so pain for me to speak of what once was. I am completely honest with who I am, where I've been, and where I am today: in the arms of God.

And note: BYU-Idaho was a poor choice of school for me, but what happened was not their fault. There were many resources I could have taken advantage of and people I could have talked to, but my depression-clouded self shut them all out. I know many people who have had a fabulous time at BYU-Idaho and even suggested it to some people.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Youve just reminded me of something I struggle with in both mormonism and catholicism. As both accept apostolic succession, they believe the leaders of the church have the power to bind and loose so you have scenarios where something which isnt actually a commandment from God is necessary for the member of the church to follow. They both have principles/disciplines which are not commandments but still have to be followed.

Would you care to provide an example?

Touching on the WoW, at the time it was given it was a guideline. ~50 years later, church leaders later interrupted it as a commandment (thought this has not be canonized).

Many other church "rules" are not actually church rules at all, but rather just cultural quirks. For example, culturally in the US girls wear skirts to church. Is this a commandment? No! If you'd rather wear slacks, then wear slacks. And don't feel guilty for doing nothing wrong.

There are a lot of other things which are actually helpful suggestions but not commandments. If you have any specific examples I could categorize them for you.

How do you not struggle with it and remain confident that the Church is true? Even though I understand apostolic succession and the keys to the kingdom etc, I have always struggled with this concept and it always makes me question the church as a whole whether catholicism or mormonism?

Post 139 is a story of some of my struggles. There is a difference between commandments/scriptures vs cultural quirks vs other stuff. Part of growing in Christ is learning the difference, learning to forgive men for their failings, and learning that God can work miracles with imperfect instruments. Also, whenever you're questioning something, just go ask God about it. He's not dead nor mute: just go ask your Father.

Did that answer your question? I feel like I might have answered the wrong question...