[FOR MUSLIMS] Am I, as a Christian, Officially a Disbeliever/Kaffir under these conditions?

[Limo]

It's very difficult to answer this question but i'll try.

Sorry I've a few comments

But if you are a (good) christian and the message of Islam came in a distorted way then it's not your fault.
You will be judged according to your faith.
Let say you haven't had the chance to read the Quran or meet (good) muslims then the religion correct for you is Christianity and God will judge you according to this faith.

Neither heard a distorted message about Islam nor didn't meet good Muslim are not excuses for not following the right beleif.
It's the person responsibility to search for the right belief.
The only people who are excused are the people who never heard about Islam by any mean
Prophet Muhammad said "Any Christian or Jewish heard about me and didn't believe will not go to heaven neither see it"

The fact that you believe Jesus was crucified won't lead you to Hell.
You can believe that Isaac was the sacrified son too, it won't lead you to Hell.
It's ok because you believe in your Book and that's what your Book said.

Believing that Allah had a son is a big sin, and believing that Jesus is God is like polytheism.
Those beliefs are not teachings of Jesus, it's wrong interpretations from the Church.

All books, all prophets messages, and laws are obsoleted after prophet Muhammad and can't be a base belief . No belief is accepted other than Islam. Even people have wrong belief before prophet Muhammad who didn't follow the true belief of El-messiah the prophet and human and believed in Trinity, Son god, or any other incorrect belief will not go to heaven

Believing in son god is most sin that Allah hates and never forget even before prophet Muhammad comes

Quran 19:90-93 "
The heavens almost rupture therefrom and the earth splits open and the mountains collapse in devastation
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
And it is not appropriate for the Most Merciful that He should take a son."

[/QUOTE]

 

[LuisDantas]

Believe me, I have the exact same wow at a conclusion such as the above!. I'm so very puzzled, specially that Islam has billions of followers already.

I believe you. Trust me, I do.

It is clear to me by now the word "religion" has a meaning to me that is very much in contrast to those that many or most Muslims use.

For one thing, Muslims tend to think of belief in God as a necessary and central feature of religion, while I find it both accessory, optional and unadvisable.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I believe you. Trust me, I do.

It is clear to me by now the word "religion" has a meaning to me that is very much in contrast to those that many or most Muslims use.

For one thing, Muslims tend to think of belief in God as a necessary and central feature of religion, while I find it both accessory, optional and unadvisable.

I on the other hand see it necessary, essential and highly advisable (did I get the correct synonyms? ). It is a matter of how one sees it really, and I respect how others see it.

 

[LuisDantas]

I on the other hand see it necessary, essential and highly advisable

I assumed as much, and I believe it will be a very unusual Muslim he who does not.

For better or worse, that is what Islam teaches - far as I understand it, anyway.

(did I get the correct synonyms? ).

You mean "antonyms", right? We are in agreement, but not quite that much...

It is a matter of how one sees it really, and I respect how others see it.

I know you do. You are quite remarkable in that respect.

Had I even a third of your ability of being in peace with differing views I would be so much better a person...

 

[Pastek]

Sorry I've a few comments

Neither heard a distorted message about Islam nor didn't meet good Muslim are not excuses for not following the right beleif.
It's the person responsibility to search for the right belief.
The only people who are excused are the people who never heard about Islam by any mean
Prophet Muhammad said "Any Christian or Jewish heard about me and didn't believe will not go to heaven neither see it"

Imagine someone can't read and only heard bad things about muslims, is it his fault ?
I think it's too limited to say, you've heard of this then you know or then you should have learned about it.

Maybe if someone see bad things from medias he may have the feelings it's not a good path.
Can you put yourself in their shoes ?

It's not black and white.

All books, all prophets messages, and laws are obsoleted after prophet Muhammad and can't be a base belief .

I disagree on that. I believe it's a good base if someone never heard (properly) of Islam, it's quite arrogant to reject it all.
I'm sorry but i'm sure in many places there's people following the Bible and they have never heard/or in bad terms of Islam.
So if they follow their religion God will judge them on that.

Even people have wrong belief before prophet Muhammad who didn't follow the true belief of El-messiah the prophet and human and believed in Trinity, Son god, or any other incorrect belief will not go to heaven

Believing in son god is most sin that Allah hates and never forget even before prophet Muhammad comes

Ah ok so let's talk about this a second.

What do you think if some christians came to jews after Jesus -let say some centuries later (but before prophet Muhammad)- and say to the jews : "the Messiah came but he is the son of God or he is God".
Is it the fault of the jews for not following Christianity or is it the fault of those who said incorrect things about Jesus ?

Is then their Book obsolete when came Jesus ?

So same think about Islam. If someone only heard bad thinks about Islam and haven't the possibility to have the correct informations, is he to be blame ?

 

[Smart_Guy]

I assumed as much, and I believe it will be a very unusual Muslim he who does not.

For better or worse, that is what Islam teaches - far as I understand it, anyway.

Yup, it's how Islam teaches it indeed. I mean, how could it be Islam with believing in God? I remember someone called themselves athiest Muslim

I know you do. You are quite remarkable in that respect.

Had I even a third of your ability of being in peace with differing views I would be so much better a person...

I do it because I believe it is the right thing to do and that it is the default position we all should have. But no one is perfect, I have trouble doing it and sometimes I do explode at some people.

You mean "antonyms", right? We are in agreement, but not quite that much...

H... hey, I wanted to say that!

 

[Patrick Silverstone]

It's very difficult to answer this question but i'll try.

Rejecting Islam when you heard about it means you rejected what Allah said and asked you to believe about.
So you can end in Hell for that.
Imagine someone heard the message of Jesus but rejected it. It's like he rejected God because Jesus came with God's message.

But if you are a (good) christian and the message of Islam came in a distorted way then it's not your fault.
You will be judged according to your faith.
Let say you haven't had the chance to read the Quran or meet (good) muslims then the religion correct for you is Christianity and God will judge you according to this faith.

The fact that you believe Jesus was crucified won't lead you to Hell.
You can believe that Isaac was the sacrified son too, it won't lead you to Hell.
It's ok because you believe in your Book and that's what your Book said.

Believing that Allah had a son is a big sin, and believing that Jesus is God is like polytheism.
Those beliefs are not teachings of Jesus, it's wrong interpretations from the Church.

It's true that Christians are still called "People of the Book" even with this belief but i think it's because of the core of the religion.
There's a confusion because of the Trinity's teaching but the "base" (Scriptures) is good.

As a muslim i would say there's a big risk to end in Hell but i can't say you'll be in Hell for sure because i am not God.

Remember that the unforgivable sin is giving partners to God (polytheism).

In Islam asking help (praying) to someone else that God is "shirk" (association).
So praying Jesus, Mary, Joseph or mother Theresa is all the same.

By the way there's muslims who also go in some tombs and pray(ask help) to prophets and saints, this is shirk and they end in the same sin as christians. So they also risk Hell (even if they believe in the Quran).

Dear Friend,
I mostly agree with what you have said. Just one of the points you mentioned is not really right. Those Muslims who go to different holy shrines and pray, do not pray and worship the holy people buried there. They just ask God for the things they want. They believe that if they ask for the things they want in these shrines God will definitely bestow them since the holy people buried in these shrines are closer to God and they are God's best and special followers; God loves them more. Even these holy people are given a power by God to perform miracles and give people what they ask for. It is not something strange and believing in that is not shirk (paganism). Even Jesus Christ had the power of reviving dead people and animals. If my memory serves me right, once Jesus revived a dead pigeon. And he was able to do that miracle only because God had given him the power.

 

[Patrick Silverstone]

Neither heard a distorted message about Islam nor didn't meet good Muslim are not excuses for not following the right beleif.
It's the person responsibility to search for the right belief.
The only people who are excused are the people who never heard about Islam by any mean
Prophet Muhammad said "Any Christian or Jewish heard about me and didn't believe will not go to heaven neither see it"

Isn't it harder than before to find faith? Millions of channels, websites, blogs, media preaching their own beliefs and religion. How one can decide which one is the right one? I know lots of people who converted from Islam to other religions. Finding the truth is so complicated.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I meant the Quran tells you not to.

You should not even make your ego your ilah.

Monotheism in Islam is not just worshiping one God and no other God like if you are worshiping Allah you should not worship Thor or a saint. Its deeper than that.

It means nothing is divine. Only THE GOD. Not not your wealth or your desire.

If you lose something, God is the only divine. Thus, dont lose yourself. If you believe in it you wont steal or cheat.

Well. Thats it.

What about angels like Jibril? Are they not also divine in the sense they are divinities (but not deities)?

 

[Godobeyer]

I have heard that any Christian who hears the Truth/Message/Signs of islam but denies it is punished by Allah! Content ive read that may be connected to this are how Islam means submission, Allah is the only god, Jesus wasnt son of god, god himself nor crucified and the context of violent verses. I still believe Jesus was gods son & crucified but im undecided on the Trinity theory. And I also havent read about the evidence to these messages. Plus I haven't read the Hadiths. Does this still mean that I will still be sent to hell if islam is the true religion?

Actualy there is many opinions about this.

It's very probably "Yes",anyone reject Muhammad(pbuh) is reject God message, so reject God.

I don't know for sure,only Allah best knows.


I think it's great risk to believe in something,does not even exist in your Bible,it's just opinion of authors.
Jesus(pbuh) never said he is God,or son of God!
Jesus (pbuh) never ever said he will crucified for sins!
Jesus(pbuh) never taught about Trinity,it's not exist in Bible it's invention of Church.

 

[Rival]

Dear All Muslims on RF

Not all Church teaching comes from the Bible. We have this thing called CHURCH TRADITION. The CHURCH is the final authority, NOT The Bible. The Bible is a product of the Church, the Church is not a product of the Bible.

How many times??

Jesus saying he will be crucified:

Matthew 20:18-19:
"See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death; then they will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified; and on the third day he will be raised."

Matthew 26:2:
"You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified."

Mark 8:31-32:
"The he began to teach them that the Son of Man must undergo great suffering, and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. He said all this quite openly."

And I've already given you the verses to prove Jesus is Lord, but none of you Muslims will have it. So you will die damned.

Also, you won't listen to Paul. So what's the point of even trying to debate with you? It's a total waste of time.

 

[Pastek]

Those Muslims who go to different holy shrines and pray, do not pray and worship the holy people buried there. They just ask God for the things they want. They believe that if they ask for the things they want in these shrines God will definitely bestow them since the holy people buried in these shrines are closer to God and they are God's best and special followers; God loves them more.
Even these holy people are given a power by God to perform miracles and give people what they ask for. It is not something strange and believing in that is not shirk (paganism).

Ok. I saw on tv some people praying to the saints actually not to God, i was refering to them.

Anyway people in the graves have absolutely no power, asking for miracles or things from them is shirk.

Even Jesus Christ had the power of reviving dead people and animals. If my memory serves me right, once Jesus revived a dead pigeon. And he was able to do that miracle only because God had given him the power.

Yes but he was alive (i mean on earth, cause i believe he is not dead) , now whatever you ask him he can't do anything for you cause he can't heard you, nor can do the saints in the graves.

I don't know from were you have this belief. The prophet Muhammad (saw) only said "send me your blessings because God will bless you too in return", that's all.
He never said ask me (or anyone else) things and i'll respond.

 

[Pastek]

Jesus saying he will be crucified:

Wasn't something in the Scriptures saying that people crucified are cursed ?

And I've already given you the verses to prove Jesus is Lord, but none of you Muslims will have it. So you will die damned.

Muslims reject polytheism so we can't accept that
If you can't convice other christians to have the same belief why would you think muslims will accept this ?

Also, you won't listen to Paul. So what's the point of even trying to debate with you? It's a total waste of time.

You're right debating with muslims and bringing Paul's verses won't help you on that.

If you want to convice us use other disciples words who were with Jesus.

 

[Rival]

Wasn't something in the Scriptures saying that people crucified are cursed ?

Yes. Jesus took on the sins of the whole world. However, going into complex Christian theology with Muslims rarely works, so I won't bother.

Muslims reject polytheism so we can't accept that
If you can't convice other christians to have the same belief why would you think muslims will accept this ?

All other orthodox Christians believe the same thing about Jesus. Also, it is NOT polytheism. When will Muslims learn? When you think of Monotheism you assume Unitarianism, we Christiani are Trinitarian monotheists. Get used to it. Those 'other Christians' are heretics. Jehovah's Witnesses? Mormons? Heretics.

You know light appears white, but is actually every colour? Yeah. One colour, but many colours. It's called a prism.

You're right debating with muslims and bringing Paul's verses won't help you on that.

If you want to convice us use other disciples words who were with Jesus.

You don't believe us when we quote the Gospel either, so what's the point? You say our Bible is corrupted then ask us to prove from the Bible our beliefs.

You see the problem?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Dear All Muslims on RF
Not all Church teaching comes from the Bible. We have this thing called CHURCH TRADITION. The CHURCH is the final authority, NOT The Bible. The Bible is a product of the Church, the Church is not a product of the Bible.

Questions:
From where does the church get the teachings?
Is it of higher authority than God?
Please advise.

 

[Patrick Silverstone]

Yes but he was alive (i mean on earth, cause i believe he is not dead) , now whatever you ask him he can't do anything for you cause he can't heard you, nor can do the saints in the graves.

Firstly, those saints are mostly martyrs and as mentions in Quran, "
And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision,...." (Al-Imran, 169)
And I suppose all Muslims believe in the life after death. We just leave our physical body and experience a new kind of life which is better (of course for righteous people). Therefore, we not only lose our powers and abilities but also we will be more powerful since we won't have the restrictions of this life; we will be beyond time and place.

 

[Rival]

Questions:
From where does the church get the teachings?
Is it of higher authority than God?
Please advise.

Reason and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pastek]

Yes. Jesus took on the sins of the whole world. However, going into complex Christian theology with Muslims rarely works, so I won't bother.

Jesus said that he took the sins of people ? Is it from his mouth ?

Why would Jesus bother to explain people what to do if he took their sins ?
Why could the previous believers bother to act rightly if other people have their sins took by Jesus ?
That doesn't make sense.

You don't believe us when we quote the Gospel either, so what's the point? You say our Bible is corrupted then ask us to prove from the Bible our beliefs.

You see the problem?

I think we just interpret sometimes differently the Bible.
When you understand Jesus is God, other understand he is the son and other interpret something else.

When the Gospel said it's not a problem to eat without washing hands and what you eat is not the problem but what comes from your mouth as words is, some christians explain they can eat pork.
Ok so you can eat anything then : cats , dogs etc that doesn't make any sense for us to interpret it like this.
And there's absolutely no proof Jesus and the disciples ate pork.

So it's the same for other things in the Bible that we can debate about.
Corrupted doesn't mean nothing is true nothing is Holy. It just means some parts are incorrect.
For exemple the disciples don't say the same things about Jesus's crucifiction or who denounced him and how.

Firstly, those saints are mostly martyrs and as mentions in Quran, "
And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision,...." (Al-Imran, 169)
And I suppose all Muslims believe in the life after death. We just leave our physical body and experience a new kind of life which is better (of course for righteous people). Therefore, we not only lose our powers and abilities but also we will be more powerful since we won't have the restrictions of this life; we will be beyond time and place.

You have no proof that dead people can interacte with people alive.
Martyrs or not they can't hear us that's the truth.
The prophet Muhammad (saw) said that the blessings are brought to him on friday, so this means he can't hear us at any moments but on a particular day "someone" (the angels ?) bring him people's salutations. And only the blessings nothing about people prayers (asking him things).
He has no power in the grave.

 

[Limo]

Isn't it harder than before to find faith? Millions of channels, websites, blogs, media preaching their own beliefs and religion. How one can decide which one is the right one? I know lots of people who converted from Islam to other religions. Finding the truth is so complicated.

It's hard, I didn't say it's easy
Everyone is responsible to find the absolute truth that Almighty will accept and it's only one truth not many not even two
If one can risk his life to gain money, food, house, joy,,
Does the Truth worth the same?
Does the eternal life after death worth?
It worth to spent time, money, discussion, travel,,, any price to know the truth
It worth
It's a must
Almighty will not forgive who didn't reach the Truth

 

[azim24]

[9:30] The Jews say: "Ezra ('Uzayr) is Allah's son,"29 and the Christians say: "The Messiah is the son of Allah." These are merely verbal assertions in imitation of the sayings of those unbelievers who preceded them.30 May Allah ruin them. How do they turn away from the Truth?
[9:31] They take their rabbis and their monks for their lords apart from Allah,31 and also the Messiah, son of Mary, whereas they were commanded to worship none but the One True God. There is no god but He. Exalted be He above those whom they associate with Him in His Divinity.
[9:32] They seek to extinguish the light of Allah by blowing through their mouths; but Allah refuses everything except that He will perfect His light howsoever the unbelievers might abhor it.
[9:33] He it is Who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the True Religion that He may make it prevail over all religions,32 howsoever those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity might detest it.
[9:34] Believers! Many of the rabbis and monks wrongfully devour mankind's possessions and hinder people from the Way of Allah.33 And there are those who amass gold and silver and do not spend it in the Way of Allah. Announce to them the tidings of a painful chastisement
[9:35] on a Day when they shall be heated up in the Fire of Hell, and their foreheads and their sides and their backs shall be branded with it, (and they shall be told): "This is the treasure which you hoarded for yourselves. Taste, then, the punishment for what you have hoarded."(for more detailed information http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=9&verse=36&to=37)