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For the citizens of the U.S.A.

Draka

Wonder Woman
Scott1 said:
Super!
Okey dokey.... but this is a far cry from " but there are jobs one can perform in service to the military and counrty that do not involve directly killing anyone."..... ;)

Peace to you.
And what I said is true...first off not everyone that goes in the military ends up in the battle zones or even in Iraq at all. You can work stateside training other to fly or do paperwork or processing or communications, you can be on a ship directing aircraft in and out, providing medical care, serving food. Whatever.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Doc said:
As much as I would like to serve my country and have improved my health recently, I have minor scoliosis which as far as I know, disqualifies me immediately. Otherwise, if I did not have it, I would not dodge the draft if it came back and would be glad to serve in the military.
Kudos to you! Sorry to hear about your ailment, but still...frubals your way!
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Draka said:
And what I said is true...first off not everyone that goes in the military ends up in the battle zones or even in Iraq at all. You can work stateside training other to fly or do paperwork or processing or communications, you can be on a ship directing aircraft in and out, providing medical care, serving food. Whatever.
Again... okey dokey... but the best way to make sure you don't end up in a battle zone is to not join the military!:D
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Scott1 said:
Again... okey dokey... but the best way to make sure you don't end up in a battle zone is to not join the military!:D
Then along those lines...as a civilian...don't go into construction, media, missionary, or any other kind of work that may end you up in any dangerous area (think of all the civilians that have lost their lives there as well). Don't drive your car to work...the roads are death traps. Don't do anything that may make life better for anyone else for fear of what may happen to you.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Draka said:
Then along those lines...as a civilian...don't go into construction, media, missionary, or any other kind of work that may end you up in any dangerous area (think of all the civilians that have lost their lives there as well).
If you value your life? Yep.
Don't drive your car to work...the roads are death traps. Don't do anything that may make life better for anyone else for fear of what may happen to you.
Yeah... that's the same as the military....:rolleyes:
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Scott1 said:
If you value your life? Yep.
Yeah... that's the same as the military....:rolleyes:
Just making a point Scott...anything you do has risk. I have a lot of respect for those who dedicate their lives to the service of our country.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Draka said:
Just making a point Scott...anything you do has risk. I have a lot of respect for those who dedicate their lives to the service of our country.
Ok... I get ya.... I also have a lot of respect for those people... I still would be one of "those people" if I didn't leave my spleen on a street in Somalia.;)

God bless you.
 

Crystallas

Active Member
Id go back if I had to :)
Great experience. But as any experience goes.. its what you make of it.
As for right now Im starting a family. I'd like to think that I did my time.

If a draft happened, it wont be another Vietnam, something REALLY bad would be going on, far worse! I truelly believe that not enough congressmen would support it if it weren't serious enough. Not to mention, whos going to pay for this? We cant afford to start a draft, even if its the best thing to do.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Scott1 said:
Ok... I get ya.... I also have a lot of respect for those people... I still would be one of "those people" if I didn't leave my spleen on a street in Somalia.;)

God bless you.
I salute and honor you then and understand where you are coming from and your stance then. Respect you...always have. Didn't really want to get into any kind of debate with you to begin with about this because I have always respected what you have had to say here. We just have a difference of opinion on this for our own reasons.

Blessed Be Scott.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Crystallas said:
Id go back if I had to :)
Great experience. But as any experience goes.. its what you make of it.
As for right now Im starting a family. I'd like to think that I did my time.

If a draft happened, it wont be another Vietnam, something REALLY bad would be going on, far worse! I truelly believe that not enough congressmen would support it if it weren't serious enough. Not to mention, whos going to pay for this? We cant afford to start a draft, even if its the best thing to do.
Agreed. At this point I think it is a non-viable thing anyway. I don't think it will come to a draft anyway. Just don't see it.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Draka said:
CRIME??? serving your country in whatever way it asks is a crime??? The country that affords you the freedom of speech that you hold so dear? The country that protects you should anything happen??? Just what crime exactly are you referring to?
Yes -- agreeing to abdicate moral responsibility for your actions is reprehensible -- albeit impossible in actual fact. And actually killing other people you've never even met, who may well be innocent of any crime, is certainly a sin, as is destroying their property without a proper legal warrant.

Why are people so quick to completely abandon ordinary neighborly civility and the principles preached from every pulpit in the land? Does fear and expedience justify killing and destruction? Do moral principles apply only when they're convenient?

In re: "serving my country" -- I have no country, I'm a North American. Where I live is an accident of birth. Do you think it's correct to "serve your country" no matter what it asks you to do? Can a bunch of ordinary human beings in Washington, DC override universal principles of justice or morality? By this reasoning you could have no objections to the actions of Hitler's Waffen SS -- they were serving their country, obeying lawful orders. And you could have no moral objections to the actions of whatever army your military was fighting in the field. If it's moral to "serve your country in whatever way it asks" then both armies are right and just. Both are "the good guys." Do you see no contradiction here?

If "my country" asks me to so something just and good, fine; but when it asks me to to do something evil and immoral I have no supportable moral choice but to take exception.

In re: my Freedom of speech -- that's God-given. Not unjustly forbidding it is not laudable, it's morally neutral.

In re: My country protecting me -- My country's own foreign policy is responsible for any danger I may be in. Citizens of other countries with insignificant militaries and no imperial ambitions sleep peacefully at night, untroubled by fears of invasion or terrorism.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Seyorni said:
Yes -- agreeing to abdicate moral responsibility for your actions is reprehensible -- albeit impossible in actual fact. And actually killing other people you've never even met, who may well be innocent of any crime, is certainly a sin, as is destroying their property without a proper legal warrant.
Don't talk about "sin" to a person who does not believe in such a thing. And don't talk about legalities of law granted you by a country you deny.
Why are people so quick to completely abandon ordinary neighborly civility and the principles preached from every pulpit in the land? Does fear and expedience justify killing and destruction? Do moral principles apply only when they're convenient?
Is it "moral" to lay down and let others do whatever they want to yourself and your neighbors? My "pulpit" doesn't preach so...wait...I have no one preaching from a pulpit at me. Would it be better to let the killing and destruction happen to you and not defend yourself?
In re: "serving my country" -- I have no country, I'm a North American. Where I live is an accident of birth. Do you think it's correct to "serve your country" no matter what it asks you to do? Can a bunch of ordinary human beings in Washington, DC override universal principles of justice or morality? By this reasoning you could have no objections to the actions of Hitler's Waffen SS -- they were serving their country, obeying lawful orders. And you could have no moral objections to the actions of whatever army your military was fighting in the field. If it's moral to "serve your country in whatever way it asks" then both armies are right and just. Both are "the good guys." Do you see no contradiction here?
If you claim no country then I suppose you don't pay taxes and therefore are sitting in prison hacking into a computer you should not have access to. If not then you HAVE a country that you are a viable citizen of...you just have no respect or concern for the country that keeps you or the ones that lay their lives on the line to protect that establishment and the people it represents.
If "my country" asks me to so something just and good, fine; but when it asks me to to do something evil and immoral I have no supportable moral choice but to take exception.
Even in the military you have the right to deny an order if you feel it is wrong.
In re: my Freedom of speech -- that's God-given. Not unjustly forbidding it is not laudable, it's morally neutral.
So it matters not to you that in other countries that you could suffer greatly for saying such things you say...suffer beyond any imagination of yours? Forgive this country then for being "neutral morally".
In re: My country protecting me -- My country's own foreign policy is responsible for any danger I may be in. Citizens of other countries with insignificant militaries and no imperial ambitions sleep peacefully at night, untroubled by fears of invasion or terrorism.
So the countries such as Belgium and others who have minor militaries and kept to themselves didn't get invaded or attacked during WWI??? Forgive my history teachings of Western Civilization...history must be SO wrong then.
Forgive me for obviously being stupid :rolleyes:
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Seyorni said:
Yes -- agreeing to abdicate moral responsibility for your actions is reprehensible -- albeit impossible in actual fact. And actually killing other people you've never even met, who may well be innocent of any crime, is certainly a sin, as is destroying their property without a proper legal warrant.

Why are people so quick to completely abandon ordinary neighborly civility and the principles preached from every pulpit in the land? Does fear and expedience justify killing and destruction? Do moral principles apply only when they're convenient?

In re: "serving my country" -- I have no country, I'm a North American. Where I live is an accident of birth. Do you think it's correct to "serve your country" no matter what it asks you to do? Can a bunch of ordinary human beings in Washington, DC override universal principles of justice or morality? By this reasoning you could have no objections to the actions of Hitler's Waffen SS -- they were serving their country, obeying lawful orders. And you could have no moral objections to the actions of whatever army your military was fighting in the field. If it's moral to "serve your country in whatever way it asks" then both armies are right and just. Both are "the good guys." Do you see no contradiction here?

If "my country" asks me to so something just and good, fine; but when it asks me to to do something evil and immoral I have no supportable moral choice but to take exception.

In re: my Freedom of speech -- that's God-given. Not unjustly forbidding it is not laudable, it's morally neutral.

That's a lovelly post,

In re: My country protecting me -- My country's own foreign policy is responsible for any danger I may be in. Citizens of other countries with insignificant militaries and no imperial ambitions sleep peacefully at night, untroubled by fears of invasion or terrorism.
That's a lovelly post, Seyorni.......:)
 

Fluffy

A fool
The punishment for refusing a draft in England is still the death penalty so no I would not refuse a draft. I would simply insist on being placed in a non-combatant occupation such as supplies, medical or engineering. Failing that I would bite the bullet.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Fluffy said:
The punishment for refusing a draft in England is still the death penalty so no I would not refuse a draft. I would simply insist on being placed in a non-combatant occupation such as supplies, medical or engineering. Failing that I would bite the bullet.
That's what you think now Fluffy - and I am sure that is your sincere belief. With the greatest of respect though, you cannot know how you would react if and when you were put on the spot for real. Both my parents were pacifists, yet both helped the war effort.

Another point - you might not accept to fight in agression (which I can understand fully) - but how would you feel if you were drafted to help save Britain from invasion, by a powerful enemy ?:)
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
I would claim moral/religious objection. And then I wouldn't have to go. This is, of course, if they needed people as young as me, which is a pretty bad sign for how the war is going. However, I do have cadet training, and according to a contract my parents signed when I was signed up into cadets, if it was ever necessary, I would be drafted before other able-bodied people of my age. However, if I was forced to join the military, I'd stay long enough for them to move me south, before stealing some supplies and dissapearing. Maybe I'd try to hike to Newfoundland or B.C.. Likely B.C., where I'd find the most support (strongly anti-war in B.C.).
 

Fluffy

A fool
That's what you think now Fluffy - and I am sure that is your sincere belief. With the greatest of respect though, you cannot know how you would react if and when you were put on the spot for real. Both my parents were pacifists, yet both helped the war effort.

Another point - you might not accept to fight in agression (which I can understand fully) - but how would you feel if you were drafted to help save Britain from invasion, by a powerful enemy ?
smile.gif
Yeah I agree that it is difficult and probably very undependable to predict my feelings in such a circumstance. However, I believe that countries are artificial and I do not give my allegiance to any of them. I feel the exact same amount of compulsion to defend Britain, violently, that I did to defend, violently, the occupants of Iraq from the British invasion.

I must admit I am not a pacifist in any sense of the word and I believe that there are circumstances in which I would commit violence in order to achieve a specific aim. I just don't believe their is any such circumstance when politics gets involved because the morality of a group or country is more corruptible than that of a single person.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Good points, Fluffy. Governments are artificial constructs and it amazes me how they've brainwashed people to feel loyalty to and even obligation toward them, regardless of their natures and behaviors.

Why do people in China feel obligated to support China's government when even a casual overview of the smörgåsbord of world governments would convince them that the Swedish government, (and numerous others) was more benign and more supportive of their interests. Why does your average Chinese feel an allegiance to China and not Sweden? Their being born in a region controlled by the Chinese government was entirely accidental.

Governments developed out of gangs of bullies that physically dominated others in their bands. As society grew the gangs became more organized, insinuated themselves into every aspect of life, found that providing services for their supporters was in their best interest ("we'll grant you this favor, but we may, at some time in the future, require some favor from you...).

During the1930s areas of Chicago controlled by the infamous gangster Al Capone had soup kitchens, a welfare/dole system for the indigent, regular trash pickup and "law enforcement." -- all of which were pretty spotty in the city controlled areas. With luck, such gangsters gain total control and acquired a patina of benevolence and legitimacy. They become governments and, for some reason, people feel that they are born with an obligation to them, that these governments have some legitimate legal dominion or sovereignty, even that they could compel service and absolve citizens of moral responsibility for the actions they require.

If I decided my neighbor was a miscreant and shot him, I'd be brought up on charges. If the whole neighborhood association meets and decides he should be shot we'd still be arrested. If the City council called for his execution the situation starts becoming ambiguous. But if the state ( a whole lot of people) decides he must die, then his execution is considered legitimate. And the moral responsibility for the act is absorbed by the state, in loco Cristus -- not the actual perpetrator.

The number of people telling you to perform some immoral act has no effect on the act's morality. The perpetrator assumes 100% of the responsibility/karma for the act. Christians will tell you that only Jesus can take upon Himself the responsibility for the sins of others, which is why you'll never find a true Christian in the military, for instance. Following your seargent's orders will damn you to hell if he commands an imoral act and you comply.

(sorry if I'm ranting -- I get carried away...)

----runs and hides..)
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Fluffy said:
Yeah I agree that it is difficult and probably very undependable to predict my feelings in such a circumstance. However, I believe that countries are artificial and I do not give my allegiance to any of them. I feel the exact same amount of compulsion to defend Britain, violently, that I did to defend, violently, the occupants of Iraq from the British invasion.

I must admit I am not a pacifist in any sense of the word and I believe that there are circumstances in which I would commit violence in order to achieve a specific aim. I just don't believe their is any such circumstance when politics gets involved because the morality of a group or country is more corruptible than that of a single person.
Alas, you are probably right, in your comment concerning morality - there are far too many hidden agendas. Perhaps that is why people of you age have a duty - to themselves, to transform the wrongs you seee in society; it will soon be YOUR great Britain.

Use you r vote, campaign, get into politics - its is for the good of yourself, your children. ACT NOW-don't leave it to others!:)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Assuming the same draft rules would be used, I am undraftable, since I am my fathers only son.
But if I was draftable, and I was drafted, the only to options would be go to war or run to Canada. Ive never run or backed down from anything, so I would go to war.
 
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