For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

[David Davidovich]

Well, I'm not sure about what you were told. This is how I understand it. Each commandment is different. Breaking them has different effects. I don't think anyone really fully understands the mechanics of it. Trying to make it very simple... Imagine that each person is connected to God by a rope. Each commandment is a strand of the rope. Each sin cuts a strand of the rope. Repentence reconnects the strands. A broken heart, truly broken and crushed, renders a whole new rope. Which is useful because some transgressions are so severe that the entire rope is cut clean through, every strand.

Well, at least you're using the word "sin" where it has been stated in this thread that "sin" doesn't exist in the Jewish culture. Also, I find your analogy of how the 'entire rope can be cut clean through' interesting since I had also previously been given the impression that there's really no such thing as "evil" and that people just don't know any better when they do bad things and that one day everyone is going to, um, 'wake up' and start to obey the Torah and the 7 mitzvohs. But I thought about this news story about how when the guilty verdict was being handed down during the trial of a serial killer and how the serial killer laughed and the reaction of the father of his murdered daughter:

Click here for the short YouTube video.

And while I was looking for that video, I found a similar one below:

Click here for the 2nd YouTube video.

It wasn't that complicated actually. I mentioned it in post 551. But, this notion that we don't sin, and don't have a concept of sin isn't really true.

Okay, thanks.

Those are some good ideas.

Thanks.

Sure! Where do you think they got their ideas from? Some people ( many people? ) do back flips trying to deny any similarity what so ever with Christianity. But the truth is, we Jews own those ideas. They came from us. Christianity has tiny splinters of it, and has warped and added to it in places.

Right. Exactly. And that's what I was talking about when I mentioned "polarization." Because sometimes when people are opposed to each other, they want to be so opposite in every little way.

We're not supposed to say it in vain.

I'm confused. I thought that Jews weren't supposed to say it at all.

What the article said was, where the offerings are described in the Torah, it is always coming from God described by the 4 letter name. So, it's talking about what's written, not about what is actually done during the offering.

I looked at the quote again and you're right. Thanks.

What's hmmmm? The new emoji's don't do a good job expressing your reaction, sadly.

It's based on what I emphasized in the quotes about "sin" and before you explained that the idea that the Jews don't believe in the concept of human sin was not true. But now I know differently.

Well. Conquering it is a gift. The capability, and the tools, that we are given for this purpose are a gift. But, if we are just given these tools, and never use them, they have no value... therefore, the evil inclination along with the capability to conquer it is the gift.

Regarding keeping it busy... that's not too difficult to understand.

That's what I thought you meant. And I am familiar with the concept and it works.

The evil inclination opposes. That's what it does. It's drawn to holiness, it's attracted to it. It cannot control itself. So, a person can make honey pot, they can make themselves a honey pot. And spend all their time involved in the law. Learning the law, following the law, all its details, etc. The entire time the evil inclination will be obsessed with this, trying to find ways to undermine it, looking for loopholes, trying to convince the person not to do it, trying to get them to mess up. If the law is complicated enough, and if the person never interrupts what they're doing, the evil inclination will be overwhelmed, and unable to do much.

It's interesting how Christians believe that God intended for Adam and Eve and their descendants to live happy and comfortable lifes, however, Jews seem to believe that God created life to be an obstacle course because it's supposed to be the only way to give life true meaning and to make people better?

 

[David Davidovich]

To be clear, I was helping to decode what another person said. Their approach is not my approach. They are a strict rationalist who is adverse to religion. And, don't worry at all about using the word supernatural with me. The Torah IS supernatural. Divinity IS supernatural. I think it's silly to deny it.

When we do good things, it creates a chain reaction of goodness that overflows our own lives and cascades to everyone we encounter and everything we do.

Okay, thanks. But I don't see how all that goodness can help cure diseases and heal deformities and conquer death. Because there are people who are good and who do good who still have diseases, deformities, and who die.

God. God is responsible. God created everything. The good the bad and the ugly.

That doesn't make sense to me. Because that sounds like a flawed creator.

 

[David Davidovich]

This is how I feel. I feel like part of you geniunely questions and wants answers, but that's not all that's going on. For example, you asked a question in another thread about the human hand, and how that is in the image of God. But, the way you phrased the question made me feel like, you didn't really want the answer, and you wouldn't appreciate what I had to say. So, I didn't answer it. I think each question, each thread, is going to be like that. It has nothing to do with one person's seal of approval, or backup, or whatever it is you think is happening. It's just a case by case, question-by-question assessment of whether or not we have something of value to offer. We all enjoy writing about these topics, or we wouldn't be here.

David Davidovich said:
Okay, thanks. But I still would like to know from an apologist why apes are so similar to God's crowning achievement. I mean, why hands?

I still don't see how what I said made you feel like I didn't really want the answer, and I wouldn't appreciate what you had to say.

 

[dybmh]

I found this:

>>>How Satan Is Viewed in Judaism

Something about this doesn't feel right to me. The serpent was cursed and cast down to earth. Satan is an angel. I agree there's a connection between the evil inclination and Satan, but connecting Satan to the serpent doesn't work for me. I think they're two seperate concepts.

This is interesting: Serpents in the Bible - Wikipedia The article is good, but this is what stuck out at me.

"There is a debate about whether the serpent in Eden should be viewed figuratively or as a literal animal. According to one midrashic interpretation in Rabbinic literature, the serpent represents sexual desire;[26] another interpretation is that the snake is the yetzer hara. Modern Rabbinic ideas include interpreting the story as a psychological allegory where Adam represents reasoning faculties, Eve the emotional faculties, and the serpent the hedonic sexual/physical faculties.[27] Voltaire, drawing on Socinian influences, wrote: "It was so decidedly a real serpent, that all its species, which had before walked on their feet, were condemned to crawl on their bellies. No serpent, no animal of any kind, is called Satan, or Belzebub, or Devil, in the Pentateuch."[28]"

There is debate about what it is. And I think it's important to see that in Judaism, negative influences can come from multiple directions. Believing in 1 when there are several would make a person a protential target for misdirection.
https://www.learnreligions.com/jewish-view-of-satan-2076775

But I would think that the only "more" that you are referring to are ancient writings made by men, which are claimed to be dictated by God. Or by ancient hand-me-down stories which are claimed to have been passed down from previous generations. But to me, that appears to be more akin to faith rather than to accuracy.

Maybe if a person lived in a warzone with dead decaying bodies and excrement piled up everwhere. Or perhaps if someone lived in the salt flats, or above the timberline on a mountain, or some other "God foresaken" place. But those places are pretty rare. The overwhelming majority of the planet is not made up of "God foresaken" places. The dead and our bio-waste decomposes and new things grow. In general, people are surrounded by life and living things. Even in a city covered with concrete, there's so much life there.

But we could look at it more quantitatively. Yes, children are starving, and its horrible. 10% of children world-wide go hungry, and it's awful. But 90% don't. The same with disease and deformities, these things are rare, most people don't have them. Yes, people get sick and die, everyone goes through that. But death and illness bring people together, and get people to focus on what's really important in their lives.

Based on this, I think a person can look around and see that God is much more good than bad. No bible stories needed.

 

[dybmh]

Okay, thanks. But I don't see how all that goodness can help cure diseases and heal deformities and conquer death. Because there are people who are good and who do good who still have diseases, deformities, and who die.

Right, healiing diseases and deformities would be an open miracle.

That doesn't make sense to me. Because that sounds like a flawed creator.

It all depends on perspective. Any flaw that leads to an improvement is an important part of the process.

 

[dybmh]

Well, at least you're using the word "sin" where it has been stated in this thread that "sin" doesn't exist in the Jewish culture. Also, I find your analogy of how the 'entire rope can be cut clean through' interesting since I had also previously been given the impression that there's really no such thing as "evil" and that people just don't know any better when they do bad things and that one day everyone is going to, um, 'wake up' and start to obey the Torah and the 7 mitzvohs. But I thought about this news story about how when the guilty verdict was being handed down during the trial of a serial killer and how the serial killer laughed and the reaction of the father of his murdered daughter:

Click here for the short YouTube video.

And while I was looking for that video, I found a similar one below:

Click here for the 2nd YouTube video.

It makes sense for you to have come to that conclusion about Judaism and Jewish culture based on what was said and how it was said. The challenge is knowing where these ideas overlap with other religions and cultures and where they diverge.

I'm confused. I thought that Jews weren't supposed to say it at all.

That's not how I understand it. In order to say it, one would need to know how it is pronounced, and understand what it means, and bring that together in the right context. Otherwise, it's in vain. So, it's just a simple rule, we don't say it. But we could if all the other conditions are met.

That's what I thought you meant. And I am familiar with the concept and it works.

The extremes are easy to understand, what's happening in the middle is the wildcard.

It's interesting how Christians believe that God intended for Adam and Eve and their descendants to live happy and comfortable lifes, however, Jews seem to believe that God created life to be an obstacle course because it's supposed to be the only way to give life true meaning and to make people better?

I would be cautious here. I described 1 way of three. There are probably more than these, and once we start examining the middle path which is going to include the most people, perhaps there's infinitely many different points of view. But yes, Judaism generally accepts everything that happens in life as a meaningful part of the process.

 

[dybmh]

I still don't see how what I said made you feel like I didn't really want the answer, and I wouldn't appreciate what you had to say.

It's the idea that any answer would be apologetics, aka wishful thinking. And that any one answering would not be deemed credible. The person you were replying to uses apologist as a pejorative meaning nothing they say is valid. So, the whole comment was more about declaring a "gotcha" to an atheist commrade.

 

[David Davidovich]

Something about this doesn't feel right to me. The serpent was cursed and cast down to earth. Satan is an angel. I agree there's a connection between the evil inclination and Satan, but connecting Satan to the serpent doesn't work for me. I think they're two seperate concepts.

Where does it say that in the article? I apparently must have missed it.

This is interesting: Serpents in the Bible - Wikipedia The article is good, but this is what stuck out at me.

"There is a debate about whether the serpent in Eden should be viewed figuratively or as a literal animal. According to one midrashic interpretation in Rabbinic literature, the serpent represents sexual desire;[26] another interpretation is that the snake is the yetzer hara. Modern Rabbinic ideas include interpreting the story as a psychological allegory where Adam represents reasoning faculties, Eve the emotional faculties, and the serpent the hedonic sexual/physical faculties.[27] Voltaire, drawing on Socinian influences, wrote: "It was so decidedly a real serpent, that all its species, which had before walked on their feet, were condemned to crawl on their bellies. No serpent, no animal of any kind, is called Satan, or Belzebub, or Devil, in the Pentateuch."[28]"

There is debate about what it is. And I think it's important to see that in Judaism, negative influences can come from multiple directions. Believing in 1 when there are several would make a person a protential target for misdirection.
Satan Is Not a Sentient Being In Judaism But a Metaphor for Evil

Well, one thing that I can say about Christianity is that they have definite answers for just about all their topics... However, it seems as if even after thousands and thousands of years, Jews are still debating on a lot of things.

Maybe if a person lived in a warzone with dead decaying bodies and excrement piled up everwhere. Or perhaps if someone lived in the salt flats, or above the timberline on a mountain, or some other "God foresaken" place. But those places are pretty rare. The overwhelming majority of the planet is not made up of "God foresaken" places. The dead and our bio-waste decomposes and new things grow. In general, people are surrounded by life and living things. Even in a city covered with concrete, there's so much life there.

But we could look at it more quantitatively. Yes, children are starving, and its horrible. 10% of children world-wide go hungry, and it's awful. But 90% don't. The same with disease and deformities, these things are rare, most people don't have them. Yes, people get sick and die, everyone goes through that. But death and illness bring people together, and get people to focus on what's really important in their lives.

Based on this, I think a person can look around and see that God is much more good than bad. No bible stories needed.

But still, that's only based upon observation and assumption and not really tangable evidence. However, in your post that I was replying to, you said, "One would need so much more to judge accurately" and observation and assumption does not equate to accuracy.

 

[David Davidovich]

That's not how I understand it. In order to say it, one would need to know how it is pronounced, and understand what it means, and bring that together in the right context. Otherwise, it's in vain. So, it's just a simple rule, we don't say it. But we could if all the other conditions are met.

So, with all the other things that the scribes and Rabbis wrote down, how could this have been lost or overlooked? Also, while we're on the subject and before I forget, do you know what the Pharoah literally asked at Exodus 5:2 since he wasn't under Jewish custom?

Pharaoh said, “Who is Yahweh, that I should listen to his voice to let Israel go? I don’t know Yahweh, and moreover I will not let Israel go.”

Because I'm sure that he didn't ask: Who is Hashem? Just curious.

 

[David Davidovich]

It's the idea that any answer would be apologetics, aka wishful thinking. And that any one answering would not be deemed credible. The person you were replying to uses apologist as a pejorative meaning nothing they say is valid. So, the whole comment was more about declaring a "gotcha" to an atheist commrade.

But even @Ehav4Ever explained that Jews believed that humans evolved from apes. So, is that another concept that you disagree with @Ehav4Ever about? Also, how the term "apologist" is viewed is perception. Because many apologists wouldn't have a problem accepting that they were apologists. Plus, people aren't using it as much as a pejorative as you may be perceiving it as because sometimes it is just being used as a description to convey an idea or a concept. Therefore, I would say that you are being a bit think skinned.

But I still would like to know from you what your answer would be as far as why God's crowning achievement would have such similarities to dumb animals. Because why couldn't other non-human life forms just look like ducks or dogs or goats, etc.? Why humanlike? And I won't mock your answer.

click here for YouTube video

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But even @Ehav4Ever explained that Jews believed that humans evolved from apes.

I know I said I wouldn't be involved in this thread, but because you keep linking my name I do have to respond to this statement since you are making a false claim about me. What you have written is completely incorrect. I did not write nor explain anything like that.

 

[David Davidovich]

I know I said I wouldn't be involved in this thread, but because you keep linking my name I do have to respond to this statement since you are making a false claim about me. What you have written is completely incorrect. I did not write nor explain anything like that.

I could have sworn that I heard you say that somewhere. I even looked at some of your videos and so far I did at least find here at the 7:16 mark in one of your videos, where you said, "when we look at the animal kingdom, we look at the DNA of any kind of animal and see that at some point, we can see that there is a connection between all plant and animal life on the planet. Everything seems to have a genetic connection in some way." (And excuse me if I didn't get every nuance and every word and sound correct.) But that's all that I've found so far, but even with that, that's more of an evolutionary viewpoint than what a lot of other theists believe as far as creation is concerned since a lot of other theists believe that humankind is God's crowning achievement on earth and has no relation or genetic connection to other creatures on earth.

However, if I did completely misunderstand you, and misrepresent what you said, I apologize.

 

[dybmh]

Where does it say that in the article? I apparently must have missed it.

Oh! You asked me "what is the serpent?" I said, "I'm not sure there is a concensus." Then you posted info about Satan. So, I thought you were connecting the serpent with Satan.

Well, one thing that I can say about Christianity is that they have definite answers for just about all their topics... However, it seems as if even after thousands and thousands of years, Jews are still debating on a lot of things.

100% true. In Judaism we are good with unanswered questions.

But still, that's only based upon observation and assumption and not really tangable evidence. However, in your post that I was replying to, you said, "One would need so much more to judge accurately" and observation and assumption does not equate to accuracy.

That's a really good point. From my POV, there are many reasons to consider God much much more good than bad. But, you're right, since I don't know the big picture, the argument I gave previously applies to me.

So, with all the other things that the scribes and Rabbis wrote down, how could this have been lost or overlooked?

I think someone out there knows it. But I would not be surprised if it wasn't written down.

Also, while we're on the subject and before I forget, do you know what the Pharoah literally asked at Exodus 5:2 since he wasn't under Jewish custom?

Because I'm sure that he didn't ask: Who is Hashem? Just curious.

Really good question! Some say that Pharoah knew the name and what it meant but had blasphemed God by saying this. Some say he didn't believe that such a God existed.

... that Jews believed that humans evolved from apes. So, is that another concept that you disagree?

I believe in evolution but all of it is guided by God. But there's an interesting twist, I'll get to that in a minute.

Also, how the term "apologist" is viewed is perception. Because many apologists wouldn't have a problem accepting that they were apologists. Plus, people aren't using it as much as a pejorative as you may be perceiving it as because sometimes it is just being used as a description to convey an idea or a concept. Therefore, I would say that you are being a bit thin skinned.

You're probably right.

But I still would like to know from you what your answer would be as far as why God's crowning achievement would have such similarities to dumb animals. Because why couldn't other non-human life forms just look like ducks or dogs or goats, etc.? Why humanlike? And I won't mock your answer.

click here for YouTube video

Really great video. I noticed your post in the SW feedback thread about having trouble inserting videos into your posts. Here's the video you linked to:

All I did was choose "copy link" from YTube, then paste it into the body of the post. Poof. That's all you need to do to post videos. Hope that helps.

Now, to answer the question. What's up with hands. It's obvious really. Hands are power. The power to make, change, and destroy. The hands are made of 10 fingers and 28 segments ( 3 on each finger, plus 2 for each thumb ). In Gen 1, God creates using 10 statements and 28 letters ( בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ ). The hebrew word for power is כח, which is also the number 28. In Hebrew letters are also numbers, hopefully you knew that already. And there's a whole thing with translating words into numbers and making connections this way. So our hands have a similar form to God's creative power.



If we compare the monkey's hand with our hand, the difference is in the thumbs. The thumbs are not linked up to the fingers the same way. The 28 segments are reduced to 24 segments. 28 is כח, power. 24 is זיז, some sort of creature of the field. 28 is being reduced to 24. The power to create is being reduced to render a creature of the field. Ref Psalms 50:11 for the זיז.

The other interesting this I found, going back to evolution, is this:

In Some Ways, Human Hands Are More Primitive Than Chimp Hands

Study suggests our common ancestor had humanlike hands

www.smithsonianmag.com

There's quite a few articles out there on this. But basically, our ancestors, whomever they were, were more likely to have had human hands than monkey hands. I think that's pretty interesting. If there was a design in place, the human hand was the more original version. And monkeys were maybe part of us.

 

[David Davidovich]

Also, I was searching through the forum, and I may not have read the quote below before, but I could have sworn that I read a post or watched one of your videos that expressed something similar:

I know that I am not supposed to be here anymore but every once and a while I view the site. I noticed that you asked for an answer to your questions from people who are a) Jewish and b) pratice Judaism. I notice that you are starting to get answers from people who either a) don't fall into either one of these categories or b) according to their own self-definition, don't fall into at least one of them. So, in order to help you sift through the fruit from the weeds so to speak I will suggest a different path.

1. How the first chapters of (בראשית) Beresheeth is to be properly understood falls into a few categories.
   • A fluent understanding of the Hebrew language is needed in order to parse through what is written, how it is written, and what it means.
   • You would need to go through about 20 different ancient Jewish commentators in Aramaic and Hebrew to have a grasp of the various "ancient" views of how the text was to be understood and "where they got their understandings from."
   • A scientific understanding of how the physical word/universe works using something similar to the scientific method. I.e. a number of ancient commentators considered that only advancements in scientific knowledge would the more details aspects of Beresheeth chapters 1 and 2 would be unerstand.

View attachment 56592
View attachment 56593

1. Using the above mentioned tools, a Torah based Jew will come to their own conclusion about the mechanics of what the first few chapters mean.
   • This is one of those areas that does not require all Torah based Jews to agree on the mechanics. We, Torah based Jews, are only required to agree on the point and the conclusion.
   • All Torah based Jews do agree on the point that is made by Beresheeth and the conclusion.
   • The point being that there is a Source of Creation that caused the universe to exist.
   • The Source of Creation commanded that the information in the entire be there for developmental purposes. I.e. meaning that the text, as written in Hebrew, is there for reasons that are about how a Jew is develop their thinking intellectually and philisophically. This can mean that some things have to be understood using the above tools to determine what they mean "historically."

Now in order to get all of the above in one sitting, when you don't have the access to the tools above, I will suggest the following. I wil provide you below a list of Torah based resources from proven Jewish sources that compile as many of the various ancient, reliable, and authorative sources on the matter. Please note that below are English translations and often the attempt to translate these ideas into English from ancient Hebrew through to Hebrew from about 1,000 years ago can be lacking. Also, most of the detailed information on this topic is found in Hebrew.

Creation: A Convergence of Torah and Science
by Prof. Nathan Aviezerprint

New Science, Same Torah by RABBI GIL STUDENT

The Coming Revolution Hardcover by Rabbi Zamir Cohen

Reconciling Torah and Science – An Introduction

The Theory of Evolution - A Jewish Perspective Avraham Steinberg, M.D.

Emphasis is mine.

 

[David Davidovich]

Oh! You asked me "what is the serpent?" I said, "I'm not sure there is a concensus." Then you posted info about Satan. So, I thought you were connecting the serpent with Satan.

Okay. I'd have to go back and look, but not tonight.

100% true. In Judaism we are good with unanswered questions.

Okay.

That's a really good point. From my POV, there are many reasons to consider God much much more good than bad. But, you're right, since I don't know the big picture, the argument I gave previously applies to me.

No problem. And thanks for the honest answer.

I think someone out there knows it. But I would not be surprised if it wasn't written down.

And you know which religion would be elated to find out that answer.

Really good question! Some say that Pharoah knew the name and what it meant but had blasphemed God by saying this. Some say he didn't believe that such a God existed.

Or he could have just been defying him. Although, I guess that's a form of blasphemy.

I believe in evolution but all of it is guided by God. But there's an interesting twist, I'll get to that in a minute.

That's interesting. I look forward to reading that.

You're probably right.

Yeah, it's not always meant in a bad way.

And you don't have to watch the whole video (because I know I didn't). Because I only posted it to demonstrate my point.

Really great video.

Thanks.

I noticed your post in the SW feedback thread about having trouble inserting videos into your posts. Here's the video you linked to:

All I did was choose "copy link" from YTube, then paste it into the body of the post. Poof. That's all you need to do to post videos. Hope that helps.

Yeah, I think I got it right now based on the Preview of this post. Thanks.

Now, to answer the question. What's up with hands. It's obvious really. Hands are power. The power to make, change, and destroy. The hands are made of 10 fingers and 28 segments ( 3 on each finger, plus 2 for each thumb ). In Gen 1, God creates using 10 statements and 28 letters ( בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ ). The hebrew word for power is כח, which is also the number 28. In Hebrew letters are also numbers, hopefully you knew that already.

Well, as the old saying goes: You learn something new everyday.

And there's a whole thing with translating words into numbers and making connections this way. So our hands have a similar form to God's creative power.

View attachment 75453

If we compare the monkey's hand with our hand, the difference is in the thumbs. The thumbs are not linked up to the fingers the same way. The 28 segments are reduced to 24 segments. 28 is כח, power. 24 is זיז, some sort of creature of the field. 28 is being reduced to 24. The power to create is being reduced to render a creature of the field. Ref Psalms 50:11 for the זיז.

Actually, I found your answer really interesting.

The other interesting this I found, going back to evolution, is this:

In Some Ways, Human Hands Are More Primitive Than Chimp Hands

Study suggests our common ancestor had humanlike hands

www.smithsonianmag.com

There's quite a few articles out there on this. But basically, our ancestors, whomever they were, were more likely to have had human hands than monkey hands. I think that's pretty interesting. If there was a design in place, the human hand was the more original version. And monkeys were maybe part of us.

I'll have to look at that tomorrow or another day.

 

[David Davidovich]

The other interesting this I found, going back to evolution, is this:

In Some Ways, Human Hands Are More Primitive Than Chimp Hands

Study suggests our common ancestor had humanlike hands

www.smithsonianmag.com

There's quite a few articles out there on this. But basically, our ancestors, whomever they were, were more likely to have had human hands than monkey hands. I think that's pretty interesting. If there was a design in place, the human hand was the more original version. And monkeys were maybe part of us.

I just finished the article, and I didn't know that it was so short. However, I wonder what Christian fundamentalists (a different word with different meaning) think about all this.

Also, I found this surprising 9-second video on msn. But keep your eyes on the background. And if this doesn't make a person think twice about evolution, then I don't know what will.

MSN

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Closing out, and summerizing, what I stated on this topic. Goodbye.