"Forced Genital Cutting," and Jewish circumcision

[Saint Frankenstein]

Circmcision and HIV:

Summary

• Male circumcision reduces the risk that a man will acquire HIV from an infected female partner, and also lowers the risk of other STDs , penile cancer, and infant urinary tract infection.
• For female partners, male circumcision reduces the risk of cervical cancer, genital ulceration, bacterial vaginosis, trichomoniasis, and HPV. Although male circumcision has risks including pain, bleeding, and infection, more serious complications are rare.

CDC - Male Circumcision - Research - Prevention Research - HIV/AIDS

The page I posted addresses those arguments, if you would bother to look through it for a second.

 

[Curious George]

I'm coming from a place of being fed up with ignorance and disregard for the rights of individuals to decide such important decisions for themselves. I'm tired of the rights of children being ignored and I hate child abuse. If you're going to cut up a kid's genitals, at least have a sound medical reason to do so, not voodoo science that's easily debunked.

I'm tired of ignorant people spewing bile about the natural human body when they don't even understand basic human genital anatomy. "Oh, it's a useless piece of skin". It's even more offensive when women do it, when those are the exact same arguments people in other cultures use to cut up the female body. Most of you people don't even understand why humans started this primitive practice in the first place. It had nothing to do with "health", but everything to do with hindering the sexual faculties of males and females. Do your own damn research into the history of circumcision. The so-called "medical" reasons only came about the last century to give the practice a veneer of respectability and, I can only guess, to keep the money from the procedure rolling in. The reason why it was popularized in 19th century America was because it was viewed as an antidote to male masturbation. It was basically a form of torture.

Now, if you wish to call that "negativity", that's your choice. I choose to call it being fed up.

Are you circumcised? (if you feel comfortable answering).

I am just surprised when people label circumcision child abuse. Do we really need to lock up parents get a medically viable surgical procedure on their children done?

 

[graalbaum]

Enough with the silly generalizations regarding the U.S.

I'm pro sexual education and I'm pro gay rights, so stop trying to tie irrelevant subjects into the debate. Also, I don't advocate "penis cutting". I advocate for the parents' right to elect for the procedure.

generalisations?

FACT: we have a HPV vaccine
FACT: the religious and political right do not want it
why dont they want it? Healthy people will have more sex!
Yes, they think if we give vaccination, there will be MORE sex.

This is the same as the backward idea that the Aford Care Act will cause a shortage of helathcare as more people will go to the doctor....
I can see all these newly insured people all lining up to get poked, prodded, medicated and such...while paying for doctor visits....


good for you that you ae for sex ed....
sadly entire american states are NOT

 

[Me Myself]

as already stated, the vast majority of sexual studies are skewed

masters and johnson, arguably the most ïmportant"one..for americans anyway(you keep touting american= best) used prostitutes, attempted to cure homosexuality, stated lesbians were mentally ill..and that the penis is all that is really need for female orgasm during intercourse. All rather probematic propeganda. Yet, you want us to believe the information you supply about circumcision is not unbiased and not full of right wing repressed sexuality agendas...?

Sure..I could do that... but you know...I'd rather think for myself as opposed to pepetuating backward antiquated sexual ideas

Think freely, I am happy about the sensitivity of my circumsized penis. If it made any change I d wager it makes it more sensitive, per my experiences. Then again, I only have experiences with mine, which is why I must see if there is any CONCLUSIVE evidence from an outside source.

So far, nothing conclusive.

So I am not saying that it does not lose sensistivity, I am being intelectually honest and not inventing thins I ignore and accepting I dont know

Which is also your case but you dont seem to want to acknowledge it.

 

[Me Myself]

Lets lock up parents for giving refined sugar to their kids.

I wager I can show a many times greater impact of this than of frigging circumsising the boy.

Negative by the way, if it wasnt obvious.

Actually, lets just give em sugar when they turn 18, so they can make an informed choice about it.

 

[Harmonious]

Excuse my ignorance, but I was unaware that Jewish thought was so deeply divided. If I erred in misinterpreting the diversity of Jewish theology I apologize. My choice was not deliberately one-sided, but rather one of assuming it fit all branches(?) of Judaism. Obviously a grave error on my part. Live and learn---I was never that close to my two Jewish cousins.

Forgiven. :foryou:

Actually, one in which circumcision is said not to be a choice, but required by Jewish law.

In any case, it's now apparent that Jews are in disagreement on the issue. Pretty much in line with the diversity in Christian thought.

It isn't usually that divergent. There are the opinions who hold that all 613 commandments are given by God, plus a few extra instituted by the Rabbis for the sake of Purim and Chanuka. When God commanded Abraham to circumcise the males of his household, in history as recorded in Genesis, that became the law for Jews (and Muslims) for eternity.

Then there are Jews who aren't convinced that the Torah is God-given. If the Torah is man-made, then what logic dictates stays doable. If a commandment doesn't fit human logic, it can be done away with. This is a bit of an oversimplification, but not by much.

All other Jewish opinions are somewhere within both ideologies, as far as I can tell.

 

[Curious George]

Think freely, I am happy about the sensitivity of my circumsized penis. If it made any change I d wager it makes it more sensitive, per my experiences. Then again, I only have experiences with mine, which is why I must see if there is any CONCLUSIVE evidence from an outside source.

So far, nothing conclusive.

So I am not saying that it does not lose sensistivity, I am being intelectually honest and not inventing thins I ignore and accepting I dont know

Which is also your case but you dont seem to want to acknowledge it.

Well there are studies but there are also criticisms of those studies. If I am not mistaken their is a slight statistical increase in sensitivity for males who are intact. One of the criticisms is that the statistical increase is so small that it would have no clinical bearing. Other criticisms include subject bias and unfounded conclusions.

 

[dawny0826]

I'm coming from a place of being fed up with ignorance and disregard for the rights of individuals to decide such important decisions for themselves. I'm tired of the rights of children being ignored and I hate child abuse. If you're going to cut up a kid's genitals, at least have a sound medical reason to do so, not voodoo science that's easily debunked.

I'm tired of ignorant people spewing bile about the natural human body when they don't even understand basic human genital anatomy. "Oh, it's a useless piece of skin". It's even more offensive when women do it, when those are the exact same arguments people in other cultures use to cut up the female body. Most of you people don't even understand why humans started this primitive practice in the first place. It had nothing to do with "health", but everything to do with hindering the sexual faculties of males and females. Do your own damn research into the history of circumcision. The so-called "medical" reasons only came about the last century to give the practice a veneer of respectability and, I can only guess, to keep the money from the procedure rolling in. The reason why it was popularized in 19th century America was because it was viewed as an antidote to male masturbation. It was basically a form of torture.

Now, if you wish to call that "negativity", that's your choice. I choose to call it being fed up.

I don't have emotional investment in this.

I've known no one who has abused their children through the procedure. I know no one within my peer group who has had complications as a result of male circumcisision.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Are you circumcised? (if you feel comfortable answering).

I'm a transsexual man, so I suppose that answer would be "no". I don't have to undergo a practice an order to find it abhorrent.

 

[Father Heathen]

as already stated, the vast majority of sexual studies are skewed

Except for any that happen to support your bias, of course.

masters and johnson, arguably the most ïmportant"one..for americans anyway(you keep touting american= best) used prostitutes, attempted to cure homosexuality, stated lesbians were mentally ill..and that the penis is all that is really need for female orgasm during intercourse. All rather probematic propeganda.

Of course those things were incorrect and abhorrent, but that was decades ago. No credible, mainstream, present day medical professionals support such practices or stances, so they bare no relevance.

 

[dawny0826]

The page I posted addresses those arguments, if you would bother to look through it for a second.

I have looked at it and I respect where you're coming from.

 

[graalbaum]

The reason why it was popularized in 19th century America was because it was viewed as an antidote to male masturbation. It was basically a form of torture, imo.

.

exactly. repressed sexuality....

we treated women who enjoyed sex with lobotomies and douching with acid

dont forget homosexuality has only been legal in western society for 30-40 yrs approx.

Westerners are horribly sexually repressed....

in fact 12th century Jews revolted against christian sexual repression even back then..and advocated more sex as opposed to christian movements of the time that advocated hatred of flesh

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I have looked at it and I respect where you're coming from.

Fair enough. This topic just brings a lot of anger out of me. I've said my piece, though. I'll go back to being even-tempered now. Lol. Sorry.

 

[Father Heathen]

generalisations?

FACT: we have a HPV vaccine
FACT: the religious and political right do not want it
why dont they want it? Healthy people will have more sex!
Yes, they think if we give vaccination, there will be MORE sex.

Yes, the religious and political right are wacky (they also don't represent the U.S. as a whole), but I'm not sure what this has to do with circumcision.

 

[graalbaum]

............

 

[Me Myself]

Well there are studies but there are also criticisms of those studies. If I am not mistaken their is a slight statistical increase in sensitivity for males who are intact. One of the criticisms is that the statistical increase is so small that it would have no clinical bearing. Other criticisms include subject bias and unfounded conclusions.

As I said, no conclusive evidence.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We're American! The AAP and CDC are far credible resources to us and within our communities. Please refer to Post #10 for related links.

Ah... so the circumcision procedure is performed differently by American doctors than by doctors in the rest of the world?

So, a lot like dental work?

Do you mean dental work like fillings, where if it's not done right away when needed, the child will suffer until it is done?

Or do you mean dental work like orthodontics, where there's often only one "kick at the can" to get them to grow in straight?

Harm can result if dental work is delayed. This isn't the case with routine circumcision.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It seems that between the wars it was fashionable for upper class families in the UK to have their boys circumcised. Though the practise has alway been rare in other class groups.
After WW2 with the advent of the health service the practise virtually ceased. It could still be done privately but it was not recommended or performed by the service except for medical necessity.

To day that position has changed only slightly, in that some local health services that have high numbers of Muslims will fund circumcisions. This is to prevent the need for corrective surgery and the permanent injury caused by inexperienced unlicensed practitioners.

It seems the health providers in the USA find circumcision significantly lucrative. with corrections to botched jobs even more so. In that light they are unlikely to recommend its cessation.

The level of circumcision in the USA has reached the point where the pressure to conform now seems irresistible.

The greater unemployment amongst white collar and industrial workers may have a growing economic influence in the other direction, as the corresponding health benefits are so controversial.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

On the question of sensitivity there is a simple circumstance that all uncircumcised males will have discovered. It is normal for a circumcised penis to rub against clothing with out being noticed. However if the glans with a retracted foreskin would be in the same situation It would cause instant discomfort against the dry material.
The nature of the skin covering the circumcised Glans changes and toughens and is no longer slightly moist as a natural state.

 

[dawny0826]

Fair enough. This topic just brings a lot of anger out of me. I've said my piece, though. I'll go back to being even-tempered now. Lol. Sorry.

Let me be clear. Being respectful of another's opinion doesn't translate to accepting that person's opinion and poisition.