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"Forced Genital Cutting," and Jewish circumcision

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
The ONLY reason it's performed is because of scripture, no one would come up with the idea today and i do believe it's unethical for any medical professional to uphold archaic religious practices that involves actively removing parts of an infants genitals.

Honestly???

My decision to have my sons circumcised had ZERO to do with religion.Nada.I was under the "belief" it was a health "benefit"..It was a "necessary" evil for their good..Teh only time I "questioned" what exactly is it for???Before I signed the consent for my 3rd..the nurse was "vague" and my husband said "hell yeah hes getting circumcized"..Like was I NUTS considering not? After all he is their dad and he is...

So in our case..health reasons(supposedly) and culture...I was not a religious person.I knew nothing about circumcision even BEING for some sort of religious practice..

My shame is being an ignorant sheep..with questions.. but afraid to "buck the trend".And just blindly "believing" "its for the best even though I have no idea why for sure"...something t do with 'easier to clean and less infections".Plus I didn't want him to get "picked on " if he was 'different"..
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I trust that parents can make educated decisions regarding their own children and I am not in a position to pass judgement.

I am because I'm not a hypocrite.Half the parents you ask might say "just because you are supposed to" ..no lie..Many people are stupid..

That's why this place is good..I hope some lurkers are learning..ones that one day will make a decision based on lots of points of views..and hopefully lots of facts...
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
I am because I'm not a hypocrite.Half the parents you ask might say "just because you are supposed to" ..no lie..Many people are stupid..

That's why this place is good..I hope some lurkers are learning..ones that one day will make a decision based on lots of points of views..and hopefully lots of facts...

I would hope that lurkers have enough common sense to seek unbiased, professional, sources, not the opinions of people on this forum, to be honest.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member


The way I see it - when in doubt, especially with something that will have permanent irreversible results, I tend to think "Why bother?" as opposed to "Why not?".

I agree. My point was that I don't think it is necessarily immoral to choose to have it done.

My opinion in cases where no medical necessity is present:

The same "benefits" that there could possibly be can be achieved on women by a very similar procedure but that's not in ancient scripture so we don't do that.

The ONLY reason it's performed is because of scripture, no one would come up with the idea today and i do believe it's unethical for any medical professional to uphold archaic religious practices that involves actively removing parts of an infants genitals.
I don't find modifications that do not cause a loss of function or long-term pain/suffering to be unethical.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I would hope that lurkers have enough common sense to seek unbiased, professional, sources, not the opinions of people on this forum, to be honest.

I would hope they aren't "sheep" who trust blindly the word of a "professional" and rely only on those getting a few thousand $'s for a 10 minute surgery.:)

But you would call that "unbiased"..??? Whatever...

At the least? My personal life will not be "enriched" if some lurker hears and takes into account my experience..with 3 sons..Its not going to help pay my house payment or for my vacation to share my personal experience ..:no:Unlike the doctor getting paid... I have nothing to gain.But maybe to help someone.
 

ImprobableBeing

Active Member
Honestly???

My decision to have my sons circumcised had ZERO to do with religion.Nada.I was under the "belief" it was a health "benefit"..It was a "necessary" evil for their good..Teh only time I "questioned" what exactly is it for???Before I signed the consent for my 3rd..the nurse was "vague" and my husband said "hell yeah hes getting circumcized"..Like was I NUTS considering not? After all he is their dad and he is...

So in our case..health reasons(supposedly) and culture...I was not a religious person.I knew nothing about circumcision even BEING for some sort of religious practice..

My shame is being an ignorant sheep..with questions.. but afraid to "buck the trend".And just blindly "believing" "its for the best even though I have no idea why for sure"...something t do with 'easier to clean and less infections".Plus I didn't want him to get "picked on " if he was 'different"..

Yes honestly, if this hadn't been in scripture and the practice started so long ago then i can guarantee that no one today would think "well, it's a well shaped boy and all but i think we should cut off part of his penis".

I was talking about medical professionals, i do not believe that YOU did it because of scripture.

I'm sorry if i was being unclear.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
I would hope they aren't "sheep" who trust blindly the word of a "professional" and rely only on those getting a few thousand $'s for a 10 minute surgery.:)

But you would call that "unbiased"..??? Whatever...

At the least? My personal life will not be "enriched" if some lurker hears and takes into account my experience..with 3 sons..Its not going to help pay my house payment or for my vacation to share my personal experience ..:no:Unlike the doctor getting paid... I have nothing to gain.But maybe to help someone.

Maybe. But, I don't think your personal account is of more value than a consultation with (a) medical professional(s) and personal research from non-biased sources.

I can't speak for others, of course.
 
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ImprobableBeing

Active Member
don't find modifications that do not cause a loss of function or long-term pain/suffering to be unethical.

So removing parts of the labia for "health reasons" (AIDS contraction via skin breaks would surely be reduced) would be fine with you and not unethical for a medical professional to perform on infant girls at all?

I would agree with you if this was a grown person who had the ability to decide what should happen to his own body but these are infants and they have no say.

I also believe removing 50% of the nerve endings along with a significant reduction of sensitivity in the glans DOES mean a loss of function to a great degree.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Bare bones..a doctor performing ONLY 5 circumcisions a week can make an "extra" 130,000 a year...But yet "professionals are unbiased????
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
So removing parts of the labia for "health reasons" (AIDS contraction via skin breaks would surely be reduced) would be fine with you and not unethical for a medical professional to perform on infant girls at all?
If it caused loss of function or long-term pain/suffering (as FGM is known to do), then no.
I also believe removing 50% of the nerve endings along with a significant reduction of sensitivity in the glans DOES mean a loss of function to a great degree.
This statistic has not been substantiated.

And seeing as the vast majority of circumcised males seem to have absolutely no issue with their sexual abilities-- and seeing as quick and easy arousal is a common "problem"-- I find such a statistic to be rather suspect.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
So removing parts of the labia for "health reasons" (AIDS contraction via skin breaks would surely be reduced) would be fine with you and not unethical for a medical professional to perform on infant girls at all?

You aren't a professional and you seem biased..

We should leave it to professionals.
 

ImprobableBeing

Active Member
Maybe. But, I don't think your personal account is of more value than a consultation with (a) medical professional(s) and personal research from non-biased sources.

I can't speak for others, of course.

The problem there is that if you visit two different medical professionals you'll get two different answers.

In reality, if your son can figure out how to pull back his foreskin he'll have no problems what so ever to keep clean and the HIV contraction risk? Well this is ONLY if you don't use protection when you sleep around, a condom will cover the foreskin and thus there is no real problem.

Of course, if you're REALLY smart you look up the studies on the subject (peer reviewed studies, of course) and decide for yourself if it's worth losing a major part of the sensitivity in your sons genitals for the extremely small chance of problems it may cause to keep the foreskin.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
If it caused loss of function or long-term pain/suffering (as FGM is known to do), then no.

No its just irritation ..its not like long term pain and suffering..their lives are not ruined..What loss of functioning are you talking about..they still have "sensations"..

Who are you to judge..the parents have the right to do whatever they want if they deem it fit.
 

ImprobableBeing

Active Member
If it caused loss of function or long-term pain/suffering (as FGM is known to do), then no.

No, i mean just remove part of it because the infection risk would be lessened, no sowing labia together nor removing the clitoris (though a lot of things assemble under the clitoral hood so i assume we should cut that off too, easier to keep clean).

This statistic has not been substantiated.

https://www.cpsbc.ca/files/u6/Circumcision-Infant-Male.pdf

The sensitivity of the glans problem is obvious, with a thicker skin you get less sensitivity, this isn't up for debate.


And seeing as the vast majority of circumcised males seem to have absolutely no issue with their sexual abilities-- and seeing as quick and easy arousal is a common "problem"-- I find such a statistic to be rather suspect.


I didn't say they had problems with sexual abilities nor did i say they had problems getting aroused (which is mainly psychological) what i said was that there IS a loss of function. Lessened sensitivity IS a loss of function all in itself.
 
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DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
In reality, if your son can figure out how to pull back his foreskin he'll have no problems what so ever to keep clean and the HIV contraction risk? Well this is ONLY if you don't use protection when you sleep around, a condom will cover the foreskin and thus there is no real problem.

Besides you can still get aids (and many do) without foreskin...
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
The problem there is that if you visit two different medical professionals you'll get two different answers.

In reality, if your son can figure out how to pull back his foreskin he'll have no problems what so ever to keep clean and the HIV contraction risk? Well this is ONLY if you don't use protection when you sleep around, a condom will cover the foreskin and thus there is no real problem.

Of course, if you're REALLY smart you look up the studies on the subject (peer reviewed studies, of course) and decide for yourself if it's worth losing a major part of the sensitivity in your sons genitals for the extremely small chance of problems it may cause to keep the foreskin.

Start back at post #10 and then work your way back to here. A plethora of links have already been shared by those who are staunchly against the procedure being done to infants and those like myself, who believe that parents should be able to make informed decisions for their children.

The AAP's policy statement concludes that the health benefits of male circumcision outweigh the risks and that parents are encouraged to make their own choices for their infants within the context of their own cultural and religious belief system. I'm assuming of course, that you are an American and that this resource will be useful.

Statistically, there is not enough conclusive evidence to prove that male circumcision yields long term penile sensitivity or penile dysfunction.
From what I've read... it's about a wash...both uncircumsised and circumsised males suffer from the same sensitivity and penile dysfunction issues.

Save pain and bleeding, both easily controlled and not statistically shown to be severe, the procedure itself is relatively low-risk.

Individuals should intrepret the information provide regarding the procedure and draw their own conclusions.

Making intelligent decisions for yourself and your own family need not involve chastising others for their decisions.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
No, i mean just remove part of it because the infection risk would be lessened, no sowing labia together nor removing the clitoris (though a lot of things assemble under the clitoral hood so i assume we should cut that off too, easier to keep clean).



https://www.cpsbc.ca/files/u6/Circumcision-Infant-Male.pdf

The sensitivity of the glans problem is obvious, with a thicker skin you get less sensitivity, this isn't up for debate.





I didn't say they had problems with sexual abilities nor did i say they had problems getting aroused (which is mainly psychological) what i said was that there IS a loss of function. Lessened sensitivity IS a loss of function all in itself.

your URL has been changed.

I agree that lessened sensitivity is a loss of function, yet we must remain clear on the nature of this loss of function. While Statistically there is a very minute decrease in sensitivity shown in studies, such a loss is not significant enough to notice. That means that statistically you would never know the difference.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
No, i mean just remove part of it because the infection risk would be lessened, no sowing labia together nor removing the clitoris (though a lot of things assemble under the clitoral hood so i assume we should cut that off too, easier to keep clean).
Then it would fall under my category of morally neutral, along with tattoos, scarification, circumcision, and earlobe stretching.

Note also that supposed health benefits have nothing to do with my argument. My argument is pretty simple: As long as this doesn't harm the kid's body in a way that causes longterm suffering or loss of normal function, then I don't think it is ethically wrong.

Note also, that such a modification would have to be culturally acceptable, common, or mandated in order to fit my criteria.

https://www.cpsbc.ca/files/u6/Circumcision-Infant-Male.pdf

The sensitivity of the glans problem is obvious, with a thicker skin you get less sensitivity, this isn't up for debate.
That link is broken for me. I tried to search the website, but no luck.

I browsed the internet with the googled "circumcised vs uncircumcised sensitivity". Literally every other hit claimed either that circumcised men were just as sensitive as uncircumcised men, or that uncircumcised men were more sensitive than uncircumcised men.

There is unfortunately not a consensus.

I didn't say they had problems with sexual abilities nor did i say they had problems getting aroused (which is mainly psychological) what i said was that there IS a loss of function. Lessened sensitivity IS a loss of function all in itself.
I'm not sure I agree that such a loss of sensitivity-- should it be shown to occur-- should adequately be considered a loss of function. The problem for your argument is simply the fact that most circumcised men seem to be perfectly happy with their sexual abilities, do not report feeling as if they are missing some ability, and seem to have a more than adequate level of sensitivity. I am not completely unpersuaded, though.
 
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