"Forgive them, they know not what they do".

[Quagmire]

Personally, I think this is one of the most astute observations the authors of the Gospels (or Jesus himself if you prefer) ever made.

It kind of sums up the human condition in a phrase.

I'm of the opinion that most of the harm we do to each other is out of ignorance, elective or otherwise, inspired by fear; people project about the possible consequences of doing things by the rules, ie, the rules of fairplay, etiquete, morallity, what have you, and decide that the consequences of this would leave them in a position where they would wind up with less than they need, or more than they can deal with.

So we rationalize our actions, blame other people for our mistakes or shortcomings, punish each other for our own guilt--anything not to have to admit our own weaknesses.

The worst part of all this being; if we give in to our weaknesses we become even weaker, even more afraid, even more ignorant.

I think, if a person looks at a situation in terms of "What does this say about me" and "what is this turning me into" rather than "What did I lose" or "What do I stand to gain" everything changes.

Then the other people involved cease to be villains or victims. At that point everyone is just an actor in a play performed for our own edification, and we owe them a debt of thanks no matter what part they played.

Make any sense?

 

[lunamoth]

I think it makes a lot of sense, and well said. It does not explain all the suffering we inflict on each other, but it explains a lot of it. And yes, seeing each other as brothers, part of us, rather than as 'others,' changes our perspective to one I think is much richer and benficial to everyone.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

It sort of reminds me of a quote from the Moody Blues' song "The Balance":

" And he thought of those he angered,
For he was not a violent man,
And he thought of those he hurt
For he was not a cruel man
And he thought of those he frightened
For he was not an evil man,
And he understood.
He understood himself.

Upon this he saw that when he was of anger or knew hurt or felt fear,
It was because he was not understanding,
And he learned, compassion.

And with his eye of compassion.
He saw his enemies like unto himself,
And he learned love."

Instead of attempting to understand each other, we pretend that we're somehow better than anyone else. Even though we are all human.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

At that point everyone is just an actor in a play performed for our own edification, and we owe them a debt of thanks no matter what part they played.

Make any sense?

Hamlet aside, this is not a play and certainly not a rehearsal, and there are social forces and conditions deserving no "debt of thanks". The antidote to ignorance is not sophistry.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Hamlet aside, this is not a play and certainly not a rehearsal, and there are social forces and conditions deserving no "debt of thanks".

Well, perhaps not a live play, but we can imagine that the playback is ad-libbed.

 

[Quagmire]

I think it makes a lot of sense, and well said. It does not explain all the suffering we inflict on each other, but it explains a lot of it. And yes, seeing each other as brothers, part of us, rather than as 'others,' changes our perspective to one I think is much richer and benficial to everyone.

For me it's more like looking at all of us like we're clowns in the same circus; our feet our too big for our own good (as well as our heads) so we're going to step on each other's toes. As long as we don't have too much invested in looking dignified while we're doing it, maybe we can keep it all managable.

It sort of reminds me of a quote from the Moody Blues' song "The Balance":

" And he thought of those he angered,
For he was not a violent man,
And he thought of those he hurt
For he was not a cruel man
And he thought of those he frightened
For he was not an evil man,
And he understood.
He understood himself.

Upon this he saw that when he was of anger or knew hurt or felt fear,
It was because he was not understanding,
And he learned, compassion.

And with his eye of compassion.
He saw his enemies like unto himself,
And he learned love."

Instead of attempting to understand each other, we pretend that we're somehow better than anyone else. Even though we are all human.

Yes! Perfect in fact. Anger is like any other addiction; it feels good at first, we tell ourselves we've got it coming, but if we allow ourselves to indulge in it it takes us over and starts to define our lives and who we are.

And whatever caused it, or whatever we're using to justify it, doesn't help the innocent bystanders. There's always collateral damage.

Hamlet aside, this is not a play and certainly not a rehearsal, and there are social forces and conditions deserving no "debt of thanks". The antidote to ignorance is not sophistry.

I'm actually kind of flattered you felt you had to put sheakspeare aside in order to refute my point Jay.

(and I'm also kind of glad I don't know what sophistry is, although I do appreciate you taking the time to read this.)

 

[Bathsheba]

Personally, I think this is one of the most astute observations the authors of the Gospels (or Jesus himself if you prefer) ever made.

It kind of sums up the human condition in a phrase.

I'm of the opinion that most of the harm we do to each other is out of ignorance, elective or otherwise, inspired by fear; people project about the possible consequences of doing things by the rules, ie, the rules of fairplay, etiquete, morallity, what have you, and decide that the consequences of this would leave them in a position where they would wind up with less than they need, or more than they can deal with.

So we rationalize our actions, blame other people for our mistakes or shortcomings, punish each other for our own guilt--anything not to have to admit our own weaknesses.

The worst part of all this being; if we give in to our weaknesses we become even weaker, even more afraid, even more ignorant.

I think, if a person looks at a situation in terms of "What does this say about me" and "what is this turning me into" rather than "What did I lose" or "What do I stand to gain" everything changes.

Then the other people involved cease to be villains or victims. At that point everyone is just an actor in a play performed for our own edification, and we owe them a debt of thanks no matter what part they played.

Make any sense?

How Noble-Eightfold-Path of you.

Jonathan Haidt, Associate Professor of Psychology at the University of Virginia has publish a fascinating book called The Happiness Hypothesis: Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom. I loved the bit in the book about confabulation.

"This finding, that people will readily fabricate reason to explain their own behavior, is called confabulation." ... "a running commentary on whatever the self is doing, even though it has no access to the real causes or motives of the self's behavior...the interpreter module is good at making up explanations, but not at knowing that it has done so." The Happiness Hypothesis: Finding ... - Google Book Search​

In chapter four, "The Faults of Others", Haidt suggests that there is an evolutionary advantage or necessity to the human act of gossiping, but he starts the discussion with the following:

“There is a special pleasure in the irony of a moralist brought down for the very moral failings he has condemned. It's the pleasure of a well-told joke. Some jokes are funny as one-liners, but most require three verses: three guys, say, who walk into a bar one at a time, or a priest, a minister, and a rabbi in a lifeboat. The first two set the problem, and the third violates it. With hypocrisy, the hypocrite's preaching is the setup; the hypocritical action is the punch line. Scandal is the great entertainment because it allows people to feel contempt, a moral emotion that gives feelings of moral superiority while asking nothing in return. With contempt you don't need to right the wrong (as with anger) or flee the scene (as with fear or disgust). And best of all, contempt is made to share. Stories about the moral failings of others are among the most common kinds of gossip, they are a staple of talk radio, and they offer a ready way for people to show that they share a common moral orientation. Tell an acquaintance a cynical story that ends with both of you smirking and shaking your heads and voila, you've got a bond.​

Well, stop smirking. One of the most universal pieces of advice from across cultures and eras is that we are all hypocrites, and in our condemnation of others hypocrisy we only compound our own. Social psychologists have recently isolated the mechanisms that make us blind to the logs in our own eyes. The moral implications of these findings are disturbing; indeed, they challenge our greatest moral certainties. But the implications can be liberating, too, freeing you from destructive moralism and divisive self-righteousness."​

Quagmire, chapter 4 seems particulary relevant to ideas you have raised in the OP. http://www.happinesshypothesis.com/happiness-hypothesis-ch4.pdf

This book confirmed for me something that I have wondered about for a long time, I am just as full of crap and hypocritical as the next person - oh well.

 

[Quagmire]

Thanks for that Bathsheba.

Yup, We're all in the same boat. I used to think the world was one huge piece of crap. Then one day I realized it only looked that way to me because I had my head up my butt.

 

[Diogenes]

"But I almost think we are all of us Ghosts, Pastor Manders. It is not only what we have inherited from our father and mother that 'walks' in us. It is all sorts of dead ideas and lifeless old beliefs, and so forth. They have no vitality, but they cling to us all the same, and we can't get rid of them...There must be Ghosts all the country over, as thick as the sands of the sea. And then we are, one and all, so pitifully afraid of the light.
-Ibsen

 

[joeboonda]

"Forgive them, they know not what they do".

Luke 18:31-33

31Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: 33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Isaiah 53

1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Good grief ...

Luke 23:33-34

When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him and the criminals there, one on his right, the other on his left.

[Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."] (5) They divided his garments by casting lots.​

Note (5)

[34] [Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."]: this portion of Luke 23:34 does not occur in the oldest papyrus manuscript of Luke and in other early Greek manuscripts and ancient versions of wide geographical distribution.​

[source]​

Why is it that so many who would pontificate about scripture feel no responsibility to be even moderately knowledgeable about the topic?

 

[Scuba Pete]

I think you are overlooking the DEEPER and far more nefarious issues at hand with that quote Quagmire.

These people were mere pawns in the scheme of the cross. When God battles Satan, we often find ourselves doing things not of our own design. This is just as true when we are considering those who try to act as gods (Shrub and co). All too often we let ourselves get caught up in a herd mentality and never stop to simply think for ourselves and perchance to feel outrage against the many satans trying to advance their own agendas of hate and greed.

Jay once had an impassioned plea in his signature for us to simply be "intelligent". It's so easy for us to wallow in our intellectual laziness and not see the bigger picture. We need to move beyond our spiritual myopia and employ clear and critical thought BEFORE we act. Throw away the biases of your mom and dad: they don't need to define you. Throw away the preconceptions you have about any group of people: don't allow yourself to assign motives or characteristics to the entire group based on the actions of one or a few. Learn to recognize when you are being used as a pawn, and especially so when we are talking about church or state leaders. Perhaps the people you are being asked to hate should be tolerated or even embraced instead.

Question authority, but be sure to realize that they RARELY give a straight answer. It has been suggested that we are in an "information age". More accurately, we are in a "Manipulation Age". Religions and ideologies are trying to dupe you into being their pawns. Many who claim to be good are evil and quite often those who claim to be benevolent have ulterior motives of greed or power lust!

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

 

[Quagmire]

"But I almost think we are all of us Ghosts, Pastor Manders. It is not only what we have inherited from our father and mother that 'walks' in us. It is all sorts of dead ideas and lifeless old beliefs, and so forth. They have no vitality, but they cling to us all the same, and we can't get rid of them...There must be Ghosts all the country over, as thick as the sands of the sea. And then we are, one and all, so pitifully afraid of the light.
-Ibsen

Yes. Old ideas and beliefs are comfortable, they give us an excuse not to look at ourselves or try and understand each other. Shadows give us someplace to hide. If that's all we're looking for the last thing in the world we want in our lives is light.

People walking around with their hand over their eyes are stumbling in the dark. That can't see anything or anybody (they can't even see the hand).

Luke 18:31-33

31Then he took unto him the twelve,...

No offense Joe, but this is sort of like a commercial in the middle of the movie; it's a sales pitch and it doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about here.

Anyway, this is supposed to be a cable station--no commercials--and according to the rules, your post is spam (and proselytising).

Good grief ...

Luke 23:33-34

When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him and the criminals there, one on his right, the other on his left.

[Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."] (5) They divided his garments by casting lots.​

Note (5)

[34] [Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."]: this portion of Luke 23:34 does not occur in the oldest papyrus manuscript of Luke and in other early Greek manuscripts and ancient versions of wide geographical distribution.​

[source]​

Why is it that so many who would pontificate about scripture feel no responsibility to be even moderately knowledgeable about the topic?

Think you're missing the point Jay ; I wouldn't pontificate about scripture (what would be the point?), I'm using scripture to pontificate about life.

Whoever wrote any of this, I find it unlikely that he was thinking, "Cool! 2000 years from now people are going to be banging their heads trying to figure out who I am, what social conditions I was living under, what sources I was drawing on, whether or not any of this stuff is factual..."

I mean, if the bible were a medical journal, what could be more important than the cures it lays out (do they work?)? As far as I'm concerned, everything else is just window dressing.

I think you are overlooking the DEEPER and far more nefarious issues at hand with that quote Quagmire.

These people were mere pawns in the scheme of the cross. When God battles Satan, we often find ourselves doing things not of our own design. This is just as true when we are considering those who try to act as gods (Shrub and co). All too often we let ourselves get caught up in a herd mentality and never stop to simply think for ourselves and perchance to feel outrage against the many satans trying to advance their own agendas of hate and greed.

Nah Pete, I see it the other way around; the deeper more nefarious issue is our own penchant to lie to ourselves. That's what makes us susceptible to politicians/propagandists/Satan in whatever form he appears.

They tell us what we want to hear. They co-sign whatever lies we're already telling ourselves. That's really the only power they have over us, and it's usually enough.

Jay once had an impassioned plea in his signature for us to simply be "intelligent". It's so easy for us to wallow in our intellectual laziness and not see the bigger picture.

Jesus made an impassioned plea for us to be honest with ourselves. And you'll notice, he met the greatest resistance from the intellectuals of his time.

Reducing something to it's most simple, practical, interpretation is actually a way of looking at the big picture. Alot of people just use thier educations to confuse themselves.

We need to move beyond our spiritual myopia and employ clear and critical thought BEFORE we act. Throw away the biases of your mom and dad: they don't need to define you. Throw away the preconceptions you have about any group of people: don't allow yourself to assign motives or characteristics to the entire group based on the actions of one or a few. Learn to recognize when you are being used as a pawn, and especially so when we are talking about church or state leaders. Perhaps the people you are being asked to hate should be tolerated or even embraced instead.

That was actually my point.

Question authority, but be sure to realize that they RARELY give a straight answer. It has been suggested that we are in an "information age". More accurately, we are in a "Manipulation Age". Religions and ideologies are trying to dupe you into being their pawns. Many who claim to be good are evil and quite often those who claim to be benevolent have ulterior motives of greed or power lust!

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

"Call no man on earth your boss". Because really, if we can't even trust ourselves, how can you trust anyone else?

 

[Bathsheba]

Jesus made an impassioned plea for us to be honest with ourselves. And you'll notice, he met the greatest resistance from the intellectuals of his time.

Reducing something to it's most simple, practical, interpretation is actually a way of looking at the big picture. Alot of people just use thier educations to confuse themselves.

Ah haaa, you reminded me of something else I read recently (I like the direction you are taking this btw, you are "speaking to me" my friend).

"Lots of research in economics and psychology shows that when we know something, it becomes hard for us to imagine not knowing it. As a result, we become lousy communicators. Think of a lawyer who can't give you a straight, comprehensible answer to a legal question. His vast knowledge and experience renders him unable to fathom how little you know. So when he talks to you, he talks in abstractions that you can't follow. And we're all like the lawyer in our own domain of expertise. Here's the great cruelty of the Curse of Knowledge: The better we get at generating great ideas, new insights and novel solutions, in our field of expertise, the more unnatural it becomes for us to communicate those ideas clearly. That's why knowledge [can be] a curse."

Amazon.com: Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas Survive and Others Die: Books: Chip Heath,Dan Heath

​

The thing I like to do with myself when I learn these kinds of things is try and see where I fit the pattern. The thing is, I find it much easier to see where everybody else stumbles along. Perhaps I am forever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. lmao, I love how I use scripture in unconventional ways ... must be the Linda Blair in me ... and this is another reason why I like the way you are generating discussion, there is value looking at the scripture out of the traditional contexts, away from the so-called expertise as it were. (I'm just rambling of course)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Think you're missing the point Jay ;

You think wrong.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

5 [34] [Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."]: this portion of Luke 23:34 does not occur in the oldest papyrus manuscript of Luke and in other early Greek manuscripts and ancient versions of wide geographical distribution.

This is a bit incomplete... I wonder what the earliest MSS do have (an empty space, a textual variant, or something else).

 

[Bathsheba]

You think wrong.

Well now, you are just being obtuse. If the author of the OP knows what the "point" is and gently tells you that you are not on board with the original point ... well, perhaps you might want to consider that you are imposing your point on the OP, just maybe. Never in the history of the human race has "dude, think outside the box!" been a more appropriate consideration.

hyperbolically yours
bathsheba

 

[Quagmire]

Ah haaa, you reminded me of something else I read recently (I like the direction you are taking this btw, you are "speaking to me" my friend).

"Lots of research in economics and psychology shows that when we know something, it becomes hard for us to imagine not knowing it. As a result, we become lousy communicators. Think of a lawyer who can't give you a straight, comprehensible answer to a legal question. His vast knowledge and experience renders him unable to fathom how little you know. So when he talks to you, he talks in abstractions that you can't follow. And we're all like the lawyer in our own domain of expertise. Here's the great cruelty of the Curse of Knowledge: The better we get at generating great ideas, new insights and novel solutions, in our field of expertise, the more unnatural it becomes for us to communicate those ideas clearly. That's why knowledge [can be] a curse."

Amazon.com: Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas Survive and Others Die: Books: Chip Heath,Dan Heath

​

The thing I like to do with myself when I learn these kinds of things is try and see where I fit the pattern. The thing is, I find it much easier to see where everybody else stumbles along.

That part's always easier, and more fun too.

Perhaps I am forever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. lmao, I love how I use scripture in unconventional ways ... must be the Linda Blair in me ... and this is another reason why I like the way you are generating discussion, there is value looking at the scripture out of the traditional contexts, away from the so-called expertise as it were.

Traditional context, if you think about it, is really just someone else telling you what to think about something, or how to look at it. It's sort of like having a DJ explaining to you how you're supposed to be feeling about the song he's playing, while it's playing.

We might be sitting there nodding (because hey, this guy knows more about this stuff than we do, right (?)), but his commentary really doesn't add anything to the song. Even if he's right about what he's saying, it's still just words (can't dance to those), and all he's really doing is making the music harder to hear.

(I'm just rambling of course)

That's all any of us are doing Bethsheba.

You think wrong.

Then again, some people use thier own words for earplugs.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Then again, some people use thier own words for earplugs.

Did it ever occur to you that post #11 was not in response to you? I thought not. Get over yourself ...

 

[Bathsheba]

Did it ever occur to you that post #11 was not in response to you? I thought not. Get over yourself ...

"Why is it that so many who would pontificate about scripture feel no responsibility to be even moderately knowledgeable about the topic?"

Was post #11 a response to post #10? I would think it fairly obvious, but ya know, I don't want to assume. Plus, there is a little disconnect since post #10 doesn't "pontificate" on anything and yet that is the thrust of your beef with post #10.

The other thing that is problematic with post #11 is the assumption regarding the feelings behind post #10. How do you know that the author of post #10 feels "no responsibility to be even moderately knowledgeable about the topic"? I don't think your assumption is warranted. Now, if you wanted to say that the author of post #10 does not demonstrate knowledge in post #10 and then back that up with a reasoned explanation for your assertion, OK, fine.


Really Jay, all you have accomplished on this thread is the insertion of a pissy reaction to spam and then continued urination on the thread with obtuse and cryptic inserts. Your comments on this thread juxtaposed with the point being made in the OP surely give some a jolly belly heave and ho and laryngeal scrub and rub if ya know what I mean.



Moving forward, what do you think of this point found in the OP:

"I'm of the opinion that most of the harm we do to each other is out of ignorance, elective or otherwise, inspired by fear; people project about the possible consequences of doing things by the rules, ie, the rules of fairplay, etiquete, morallity, what have you, and decide that the consequences of this would leave them in a position where they would wind up with less than they need, or more than they can deal with."​

Ah shucks, maybe I should consider Homer and leave you alone. “But curb thou the high spirit in thy breast, for gentle ways are best, and keep aloof from sharp contentions.”