Forgiveness?

[Ken Brown]

Life can only come from life whether natural or spiritual.

Hi Walkntune, I think what you have said is a good saying. The only possible example I could think of that might not be in tune with what you have said, is how a single seed has to die and be buried in the ground before it can spring forth into life and be many. What do you think? KB

 

[Walkntune]

Hi Walkntune, I think what you have said is a good saying. The only possible example I could think of that might not be in tune with what you have said, is how a single seed has to die and be buried in the ground before it can spring forth into life and be many. What do you think? KB

I think the same. Something must die for something to live.Life coming from life means life comes from a sacrificed life.Good verse you brought up.24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.Life sustains life.We know for a fact naturally as we sustain ourselves. Spiritual runs parallel with the natural realm.No greater love than to lay down your life for your brother. Love is sacrifice. God is love.

 

[Harrytic]

Hi Harrytic, I don't envision G-d needing buckets of innocent blood to appease his wrath or anger, I see a G-d who needs sinners to turn from their sin, and then it's a no brainer, he will forgive. What earthly parent requires their good child to be spanked instead of their disobedient children? It's commonsense. KB

I agree on one hand, he does not need buckets of blood, but I see it more as the nature of God, that the spilling of blood is something that somehow appeases him. The best analogy I can think of is the massage of sore limbs when it comes to humans. Makes us feel better. Takes away any stress or anger we may feel. Of course I am simply looking at God as how the bible portrays him. One could argue outside of the bible and say that if God is real, then blood sacrifices would not be necessary for him, but the bible shows us a God who does require sacrifice whether he needs it or not.

One thing I kind of disagree with is this notion that God needs sinners to turn from their sin. For one thing that paints a picture of God as needing something, but if God is God, he needs nothing. It all comes down to desire not need. God WANTS a blood sacrifice, after all God can forgive without the need for a sacrifice because he’s a God! And he does it numerous times throughout the bible. However the bible is more concerned with your belief in Christ than your sins. Ultimately salvation comes down to your belief in Christ, not whether you sin or not. Christ’s blood covers those sins.

And no he will not just forgive. You must first agree to worship him. At least according to the bible.

I know people are gonna cry out about my next statement, but I do not see God as a good parent. Far from it. I don’t think you can use God as an example of good parenting. God is a God and like most God’s he expects 100% obedience or watch out!

 

[Harrytic]

According to the Bible,

God doesn't like human sacrifice :
"You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods." Deuteronomy 12:31

If this were so, God would not have expected his son to die on the cross for our sins. Nor would he have tested Abraham in the way he did. Abraham clearly believed that his God was a God who required Human sacrifices.

Also according to the Bible, an innocent will not be held accountable for someone else's sin :
“ Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.” Deuteronomy 24:16
“But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.” Jeremiah 31:30
Finally, the requirement for salvation is clearly stated (and no mention of someone dying for others sin - amend ways and repent by seeking forgiveness, that is all that is needed):
“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14
“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:7

Once again, if this were so, God would never have put his own son up to be a human sacrifice for man. It would violate his own nature. God is clearly a God who will inflict punishment on the innocent as we see all throughout the bible. Even in the book of Genesis we see him cursing all descendants of Adam and Eve. He even cursed innocent snakes simply because Satan masqueraded as one. (Genesis 3:14)

Exodus 34:7
... maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

Jer 36:31
I will punish him and his children and his attendants for their wickedness; I will bring on them and those living in Jerusalem and the people of Judah every disaster I pronounced against them, because they have not listened.'"

Jer 32:18
You show love to thousands but bring the punishment for the parents’ sins into the laps of their children after them. Great and mighty God, whose name is the Lord Almighty,

 

[loverOfTruth]

If this were so, God would not have expected his son to die on the cross for our sins. Nor would he have tested Abraham in the way he did. Abraham clearly believed that his God was a God who required Human sacrifices.

Actually, the story of Abraham is in fact testament to the fact that God does not require human sacrifice - that's exactly why He replaced Abraham's son with a sheep. That was just to test Abraham's faith whether he would obey God regardless of what God commands. If God really intended human sacrifice, he would not have replaced it with a sheep.

Neither do I believe that God let his innocent son die on the cross for the sins of humanity. But that is best left for a different thread.

Once again, if this were so, God would never have put his own son up to be a human sacrifice for man. It would violate his own nature. God is clearly a God who will inflict punishment on the innocent as we see all throughout the bible. Even in the book of Genesis we see him cursing all descendants of Adam and Eve. He even cursed innocent snakes simply because Satan masqueraded as one.



Jer 36:31
I will punish him and his children and his attendants for their wickedness; I will bring on them and those living in Jerusalem and the people of Judah every disaster I pronounced against them, because they have not listened.'"

Note that it says God will punish because their wickedness not on innocent people. Not to mention, I do not agree to quite a bit of what is attributed to God in the Bible given the corruption of the text, inconsistencies, and contradictions there in but once again that is probably a topic for a different thread.

 

[Harrytic]

Actually, the story of Abraham is in fact testament to the fact that God does not require human sacrifice - that's exactly why He replaced Abraham's son with a sheep.

That was just to test Abraham's faith whether he would obey God regardless of what God commands. If God really intended human sacrifice, he would not have replaced it with a sheep.

It may have been just a test, but I see it as evidence that God did at some stage require human sacrifices even if not anymore. Abraham fully believed the request reasonable. That is very telling in my mind. He supposedly knew God better than anyone. If God was not a God that required human sacrifice, Abraham would have questioned it right away, not just blindly obeyed.

I may not be able to back this up well with scripture, but I believe that God somewhere along the line got to the point where he didn't want to be labelled in the same category as other Gods. He wanted to stand out. He wanted to be the "Ultimate God", so at some point changed his methods. He started demanding animal sacrifices instead. Jesus became the final human sacrifice.

Neither do I believe that God let his innocent son die on the cross for the sins of humanity. But that is best left for a different thread.

It’s interesting how we all see things differently even the bible.

Note that it says God will punish because their wickedness not on innocent people. Not to mention, I do not agree to quite a bit of what is attributed to God in the Bible given the corruption of the text, inconsistencies, and contradictions there in but once again that is probably a topic for a different thread.

Sorry added another couple better ones without realising you’d posted. (Exodus 34:7, Jer 32:18 - edited into previous post)

Those scriptures seem to me to be real evidence that he will punish the innocent. And we see it with things like the great flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

I think a lot of it comes down to perspective and how we take these stories, whether we take the bible as the infallible word of God or the musings of man, each with their own opinions and ideas. Whether we see them as fictional, historical, or as you say, corrupted in some way. It sure makes it very difficult for even Christians to find common ground!

 

[Harrytic]

Just realised you are Islamic, LoverOfTruth! Here's me assuming you were a Christian. Ha ha. Good to come across people of various beliefs here.

 

[Pegg]

The shedding of blood does not atone for sin (unless it's your own),

here is the answer as to how Jesus blood benefits us.

Complete atonement for our sins takes place when we individually die. Death is the wages of sin.
Romans 6:23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord

But death is not the what God wants for mankind. He created them to live forever. When sin was introduced, death followed because death is the divine penalty for sin. When one of mankind dies, they cease to exist....and that is not what God wants for us.

So what is the solution to removing this divine pentalty? The only solution is for someone without sin to pay the price on our behalf thus acting as a 'scapegoat'. Is there a scriptural precedent for this? Yes.

Under the mosaic law, Jehovah God made provision for the Israelites to hold a solemn Day of Atonement each year. In connection with the atonement for sins that was made through the blood of a bull and a goat, which was taken into the Most Holy of the tabernacle and sprinkled before the golden ark of God’s covenant, there was a goat that was made a scapegoat.
And [Aaron] shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.—Leviticus 16:5-10, 20-22

This is how Jesus blood makes everlasting life possible for mankind...his sacrifice was accepted in exchange for our impending death.

turning from sin atones for sin, and the purpose for shedding the blood of an innocent animal was to bring about that repentance, that turning from sin.

If the sacrifice was given for the purpose of turning from sin, then why would God say that he didnt want the sacrifices of animals in the verses you point out?
When Noah came out of the ark, what was the first thing he did? He offered a sacrifice to God. He wasnt offering a sacrifice because he had done wrong and needed to repent. He offered it to thank God and to please him.

And that is why God was not pleased with the Isrealites sacrifices...they were not offering them in the right spirit. They were not trying to please God or make friends with God...they were offering sacrifices for their sins rather then turning away from sin. Sacrifices became a false form of repentance.

Do you see that Pegg? Shedding blood and killing animals is not what G-d desires, but rather the turning from evil and learning to do what is right, and this atones for sin.

Now, how does shedding the blood of an innocent man atone for sin and grant forgiveness? KB

thats true, i agree with that... faith, love, obedience...that is what God wants from us.
But mankind are born in sin and unfortunately, the divine standard of justice requires death for sin as Ezekiel shows "...the soul that is sinning, it itself will die"
God has not changed his perfect standards of justice...this still holds true.

Yet, he does want us to live....so he has provided a means for us to live, while still upholding his divine standards of justice.
According to Isaiah’s prophecy, the Messiah would act as a sin-bearer who was typified by the scapegoat of the Atonement Day. Isaiah “Truly our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our pains, he bore them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us.”—Isaiah 53:4, 5.

Jesus acts as the scapegoat so that the penalty for sin (death) can be removed from us...thereby offering us the opportunity to obtain life rather then death.

 

[Ken Brown]

here is the answer as to how Jesus blood benefits us.

Complete atonement for our sins takes place when we individually die. Death is the wages of sin.
Romans 6:23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord

But death is not the what God wants for mankind. He created them to live forever. When sin was introduced, death followed because death is the divine penalty for sin. When one of mankind dies, they cease to exist....and that is not what God wants for us.

So what is the solution to removing this divine pentalty? The only solution is for someone without sin to pay the price on our behalf thus acting as a 'scapegoat'. Is there a scriptural precedent for this? Yes.

Under the mosaic law, Jehovah God made provision for the Israelites to hold a solemn Day of Atonement each year. In connection with the atonement for sins that was made through the blood of a bull and a goat, which was taken into the Most Holy of the tabernacle and sprinkled before the golden ark of God’s covenant, there was a goat that was made a scapegoat.
And [Aaron] shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.—Leviticus 16:5-10, 20-22

This is how Jesus blood makes everlasting life possible for mankind...his sacrifice was accepted in exchange for our impending death.



If the sacrifice was given for the purpose of turning from sin, then why would God say that he didnt want the sacrifices of animals in the verses you point out?
When Noah came out of the ark, what was the first thing he did? He offered a sacrifice to God. He wasnt offering a sacrifice because he had done wrong and needed to repent. He offered it to thank God and to please him.

And that is why God was not pleased with the Isrealites sacrifices...they were not offering them in the right spirit. They were not trying to please God or make friends with God...they were offering sacrifices for their sins rather then turning away from sin. Sacrifices became a false form of repentance.



thats true, i agree with that... faith, love, obedience...that is what God wants from us.
But mankind are born in sin and unfortunately, the divine standard of justice requires death for sin as Ezekiel shows "...the soul that is sinning, it itself will die"
God has not changed his perfect standards of justice...this still holds true.

Yet, he does want us to live....so he has provided a means for us to live, while still upholding his divine standards of justice.
According to Isaiah’s prophecy, the Messiah would act as a sin-bearer who was typified by the scapegoat of the Atonement Day. Isaiah “Truly our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our pains, he bore them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us.”—Isaiah 53:4, 5.

Jesus acts as the scapegoat so that the penalty for sin (death) can be removed from us...thereby offering us the opportunity to obtain life rather then death.

Hi Pegg, thank you so much for your detailed explanations. I was wondering...are you familiar with the Scripture that states when Messiah died....ALL died? KB

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg, thank you so much for your detailed explanations. I was wondering...are you familiar with the Scripture that states when Messiah died....ALL died? KB

not off the top of my head...do you have a reference?

 

[Ken Brown]

not off the top of my head...do you have a reference?

Hi Pegg, it is 2 Cor 5:14. And then look at verse 16. Paul no longer looks at anyone according to the flesh. As far as he is concerned, all are dead, and G-d is reconciled.

See, you stated in your response that the wages of sin is death, and that is true, and all died when he died. It had nothing to do with him dying in anyone's stead. And this is what the sacrifices teach. The sinner dies with the offering, and this brings the atonement as we no longer have a sinner that is living. This teaches a totally different view of the sacrifice of Messiah, which is a TRUE view that is based ACCORDING to the Scriptures (didn't he suffer, die, was buried, and then raised on the 3rd day ALL ACCORDING to the Scriptures?).

Now, if ALL sinners were drawn to the cross (John 12:32) and were put to death WITH Messiah, then his death is not substitutional, and he did not die in anyone's stead. All died WITH Him, and a True Believer recognizes this and realizes that they were crucified WITH him (Gal 2:20). And in dying WITH him, they can truly acknowledge their death, and then bury their dead bodies in baptism (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12). Pretty simple, and it is all ACCORDING to the Scriptures. And you don't have to kill the innocent and righteous IN PLACE of the wicked, you kill the wicked through the Power of the Cross/Stake. KB

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg, it is 2 Cor 5:14. And then look at verse 16. Paul no longer looks at anyone according to the flesh. As far as he is concerned, all are dead, and G-d is reconciled.

well not everyone is reconciled....
ie, '
17 Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away,
Only those 'in union' with Christ receive the benefits of reconciliation. Not everyone is in union with Christ....so Paul is not talking about them.
So I dont think it is accurate to say that everyone died when Christ died...im not even sure i know exactly what you mean by that to be honest.

See, you stated in your response that the wages of sin is death, and that is true, and all died when he died.

No, all didnt die. Not all accept the 'word of reconciliation'
Unless a person accepts that word, and brings their life into unity with Christ, they 'remain dead in their trespasses' as Paul told christians in Colossians 2:13 Furthermore, though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of YOUR flesh, [God] made YOU alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses


Before Christ gave his life in our behalf, all of mankind were 'dead in trespasses' because divine law dictates that anyone who sins must die. Gods servants of the past still died even though they were considered righteous...so death has held everyone captive.... but after Christ, death can no longer do that because justification of the divine law has been made.... Now anyone who wants to be reconciled to God can do so on the basis of the 'word of reconciliation'

It had nothing to do with him dying in anyone's stead. And this is what the sacrifices teach. The sinner dies with the offering, and this brings the atonement as we no longer have a sinner that is living.

im finding it a bit hard to follow your line of reasoning... how could the sacrifices bring about atonement so that the sinner is no longer living??? that doesnt make sense to me.

The fact that the sacrifices needed to be offered daily shows that sins were not taken away from the isrealites...they still sinned no matter how many sacrifices they made.
Hebrews 10:11 Also, every priest takes his station from day to day to render public service and to offer the same sacrifices often, as these are at no time able to take sins away completely

Now, if ALL sinners were drawn to the cross (John 12:32) and were put to death WITH Messiah, then his death is not substitutional, and he did not die in anyone's stead. All died WITH Him, and a True Believer recognizes this and realizes that they were crucified WITH him (Gal 2:20).

all sinnes were not drawn to the cross though....only those who 'chose' to put faith in Christ. not everyone did. Pauls words apply to those who did...even Jesus own words show that not everyone will receive salvation “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.”—Mt 7:21.

but i have to admit, im still not following your line of reasoning.

 

[Walkntune]

Hi Pegg, it is 2 Cor 5:14. And then look at verse 16. Paul no longer looks at anyone according to the flesh. As far as he is concerned, all are dead, and G-d is reconciled.

See, you stated in your response that the wages of sin is death, and that is true, and all died when he died. It had nothing to do with him dying in anyone's stead. And this is what the sacrifices teach. The sinner dies with the offering, and this brings the atonement as we no longer have a sinner that is living. This teaches a totally different view of the sacrifice of Messiah, which is a TRUE view that is based ACCORDING to the Scriptures (didn't he suffer, die, was buried, and then raised on the 3rd day ALL ACCORDING to the Scriptures?).

Now, if ALL sinners were drawn to the cross (John 12:32) and were put to death WITH Messiah, then his death is not substitutional, and he did not die in anyone's stead. All died WITH Him, and a True Believer recognizes this and realizes that they were crucified WITH him (Gal 2:20). And in dying WITH him, they can truly acknowledge their death, and then bury their dead bodies in baptism (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12). Pretty simple, and it is all ACCORDING to the Scriptures. And you don't have to kill the innocent and righteous IN PLACE of the wicked, you kill the wicked through the Power of the Cross/Stake. KB

Christ took the judgenemt of God in your behalf. Just as God passed over the blood on the door posts with no judgement in the OT he will do to those who are in Christ. Christ took all of the judgement for you on himself.I would not suggest saying dying to your flesh and desires thereof are equal to that which Christ went through for you. His death was not symbolic.

 

[Ken Brown]

well not everyone is reconciled....
ie, '
17 Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away,
Only those 'in union' with Christ receive the benefits of reconciliation. Not everyone is in union with Christ....so Paul is not talking about them.
So I dont think it is accurate to say that everyone died when Christ died...im not even sure i know exactly what you mean by that to be honest.

No, all didnt die. Not all accept the 'word of reconciliation'
Unless a person accepts that word, and brings their life into unity with Christ, they 'remain dead in their trespasses' as Paul told christians in Colossians 2:13 Furthermore, though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of YOUR flesh, [God] made YOU alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses

Before Christ gave his life in our behalf, all of mankind were 'dead in trespasses' because divine law dictates that anyone who sins must die. Gods servants of the past still died even though they were considered righteous...so death has held everyone captive.... but after Christ, death can no longer do that because justification of the divine law has been made.... Now anyone who wants to be reconciled to God can do so on the basis of the 'word of reconciliation'

im finding it a bit hard to follow your line of reasoning... how could the sacrifices bring about atonement so that the sinner is no longer living??? that doesnt make sense to me.

The fact that the sacrifices needed to be offered daily shows that sins were not taken away from the isrealites...they still sinned no matter how many sacrifices they made.
Hebrews 10:11 Also, every priest takes his station from day to day to render public service and to offer the same sacrifices often, as these are at no time able to take sins away completely

all sinnes were not drawn to the cross though....only those who 'chose' to put faith in Christ. not everyone did. Pauls words apply to those who did...even Jesus own words show that not everyone will receive salvation “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.”—Mt 7:21.

but i have to admit, im still not following your line of reasoning.

Hi Pegg, I know that what I am telling you is not easy to follow, and I do appreciate your effort and honest concern in showing me how you think I am not seeing things properly. I just want you to know that I want to do the same, and do it respectfully and with love.

The Messiah died for our sins "according to the Scriptures" (1 Cor 15:1-4). According to the Scriptures, it is an abomination to have an "unjust" scale, a "false balance" (Pro 20:23, Pro 11:1). According to the Scriptures, it is also an abomination to "justify" the wicked, and "condemn" the righteous (Pro 17:15). The gospel (which many have) that says G-d's scales of justice require the righteous to be punished in place of the wicked, so that the wicked are justified, is an abomination. At least ACCORDING to the Scriptures it is. It is an "unjust" scale, a "false balance" to punish the innocent and righteous in place of the guilty/wicked.

I'm sure you are familiar with Abraham pleading with G-d about Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham truly shows us that to even allow the righteous to suffer as the wicked, that is not right, it is not proper justice or judgment:

Gen 18:23-25
(23) And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
(24) Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
(25) That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

So G-d's love for us does not require that he kill his son (or himself) just so that he can balance the scales of justice. This is why when you look at sacrifice, you need to understand that the sinner was to place their hands upon the head of the offering, and kill it. Within Judaism, there has been argument among the Sages in the past, as to just exactly what "laying hands" upon the head of the offering meant. Was it "transference of sin" so the animal could die in the stead of the sinner, or was it "identification-becoming ONE with the offering," and the sinner could die WITH the offering. I'm certain it is the latter, it was for joining the sinner to the sacrifice so that whatever sin caused the need for sacrifice would be destroyed with the offering.

Now here is the One True Gospel. All have sinned, and all have laid their hands upon Messiah, and have killed him as their sacrifice. All sinners have done this (in ignorance-Act 3:17, 1Pet 1:14-16) without any knowledge they were even involved with placing him up on the Stake/Cross. But all sinners did do this horrific act (with the help of wicked men-Acts 2:23), and when the knowledge of this is accepted by the sinner, the sinner has to then reconcile himself to G-d-2 Cor 5:20. G-d himself is reconciled to the whole world-2 Cor 5:18-19 (all are dead), now we need to reconcile ourselves to G-d by repenting, and no longer dwelling in active or deliberate sin.

Here is a real key point. Anyone who has had their minds "opened" to the Truth of the Gospel (that they did sacrifice the Messiah by sinning), and then fall back INTO deliberate sin (where they would need to be brought again to repentance), they are re-crucifying him afresh:

Heb 6:4-6
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of G-d, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of G-d afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is not allowed..to re-crucify Messiah and sacrifice him again:

Heb 10:26-27
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

G-d's desire is that ALL come to a knowledge of the Truth, and the Truth is that Messiah died to deliver sinners OUT of sin. He was willing to suffer and die so that your sin would go into remission, it would no longer be active. He suffered and died so that every sinner's sin would be taken away from them. And if a sinner comes to the knowledge of this, and repents (turns from their sin), but then falls back into sin, it would have been better for them to have never known the Truth:

2Pe 2:20-22
(20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hopefully, this wasn't too long of a post, and that it was somewhat easier to follow. KB

 

[Ken Brown]

Christ took the judgenemt of God in your behalf. Just as God passed over the blood on the door posts with no judgement in the OT he will do to those who are in Christ. Christ took all of the judgement for you on himself.I would not suggest saying dying to your flesh and desires thereof are equal to that which Christ went through for you. His death was not symbolic.

Hi Walkntune, I know this is difficult to see and understanding that G-d doesn't have to shed blood to "forgive." But the shedding of blood is required to bring about the "remission" of sin. You know, when cancer goes INTO remission, it is still there, but no longer active. This is WHY the Messiah died, so that sin could go INTO remission, and IF sin goes into remission, none of the sinner's former sins will be remembered:

Eze 18:20-23
(20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
(21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(22) All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
(23) Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Concerning how difficult it is to forgive sin...which is easier, to tell a lame man to take up him mat and walk, or to tell him his sin is forgiven? Also, the Messiah said that ALL manner of sin will be forgiven the sons of men EXCEPT the sin against the Spirit.

Now Walkntune, does an earthly parent punish their good children, in the place of their disobedient children? No, that would be a false or bad judgment on those parents punishing their good child. Try to reason and see that G-d would not have a justice system in place to where the innocent and righteous needed to satisfy the penalty of the wicked. KB

 

[Walkntune]

Hi Walkntune, I know this is difficult to see and understanding that G-d doesn't have to shed blood to "forgive." But the shedding of blood is required to bring about the "remission" of sin. You know, when cancer goes INTO remission, it is still there, but no longer active. This is WHY the Messiah died, so that sin could go INTO remission, and IF sin goes into remission, none of the sinner's former sins will be remembered:

Gods law is perfect.His judgement is perfect and therefore sin most be judged according to his perfect law.Just as you read in verse 20 the soul that sinneth.it shall die.Jesus had to die to fullfill this law.This is why he died, so sin would be judged according to Gods perfect law.Yes it is true all of your sins have already been judged and remembered no more for those in Christ.

Eze 18:20-23
(20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
(21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(22) All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
(23) Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Now Walkntune, does an earthly parent punish their good children, in the place of their disobedient children? No, that would be a false or bad judgment on those parents punishing their good child. Try to reason and see that G-d would not have a justice system in place to where the innocent and righteous needed to satisfy the penalty of the wicked. KB]

Better to take the scriptures for what they say.Your logic falls short of a God who is just.Your ways are not his.You either accept Jesus fullfilled the law for you or you are still under them.I don't under estimate Gods grace and forgiveness as it is as perfect as his law.If Josepheth can forgive his brothers who were going to kill him and throw him in a ditch without even recognition from his brothers then how much more the forgiveness of Jesus.Without his sacrifice of Christ there is no sacrifice for you.

Concerning how difficult it is to forgive sin...which is easier, to tell a lame man to take up him mat and walk, or to tell him his sin is forgiven? Also, the Messiah said that ALL manner of sin will be forgiven the sons of men EXCEPT the sin against the Spirit.

Jesus is the only one that can forgive trepasses against God.You may try if you like.Most can't forgive trespasses against themselves.
If you sin against the Spirit how else can you be led to truth? Your own reasoning? Very dangerous indeed! Let God be true and all men a liar.

 

[Ken Brown]

Gods law is perfect.

Hi Walkntune, I most assurdedly agree with you that G-d's law is perfect. And G-d's perfect law says:

Deu 19:10
(10) That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy G-d giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

Exo 23:7
(7) Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Deu 25:1
(1) If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

Deu 27:25
(25) Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.

As you can see, the perfect Law of G-d speaks adamantly about slaying the innocent and justifying the wicked. There is even a curse for those who take reward to slay an innocent person. It appears that most who believe in "Jesus" dying for them in their stead, are under a curse. But I would like to hear from you on how you would explain the Grace of G-d, just exactly what do you receive as a gift? KB

 

[Walkntune]

Hi Walkntune, I most assurdedly agree with you that G-d's law is perfect. And G-d's perfect law says:

Deu 19:10
(10) That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy G-d giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

Exo 23:7
(7) Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Deu 25:1
(1) If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

Deu 27:25
(25) Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.

As you can see, the perfect Law of G-d speaks adamantly about slaying the innocent and justifying the wicked. There is even a curse for those who take reward to slay an innocent person. It appears that most who believe in "Jesus" dying for them in their stead, are under a curse. But I would like to hear from you on how you would explain the Grace of G-d, just exactly what do you receive as a gift? KB

You will be accountable for your own sins. Without Christ their is no sacrifice or fullfillment of the law.The law is perfect.Love is sacrifice. If you reject the sacrifice then you are still accountable to the law.You cannot break one.

 

[Ken Brown]

You will be accountable for your own sins. Without Christ their is no sacrifice or fullfillment of the law.The law is perfect.Love is sacrifice. If you reject the sacrifice then you are still accountable to the law.You cannot break one.

Hi Walkntune, I don't think you really understand what I reject and what I accept. I believe that the Messiah allowed me and all sinners to put him up on the cross/stake, and sacrifice him. We all killed the holy one of Israel (with the help of wicked men), through our sin. I in no way reject his sacrifice, but I do reject the interpretation of making his sacrifice into something it isn't. As I asked you before, please explain the Grace of G-d as you understand it. How does it work? What is accomplished through this Grace? What is the free gift you receive, and the mechanics of it. Thanks. KB

 

[Walkntune]

Hi Walkntune, I don't think you really understand what I reject and what I accept. I believe that the Messiah allowed me and all sinners to put him up on the cross/stake, and sacrifice him. We all killed the holy one of Israel (with the help of wicked men), through our sin. I in no way reject his sacrifice, but I do reject the interpretation of making his sacrifice into something it isn't. As I asked you before, please explain the Grace of G-d as you understand it. How does it work? What is accomplished through this Grace? What is the free gift you receive, and the mechanics of it. Thanks. KB

Grace is unearned ,unmerited, and underserved favor.It works the same as the passover in the OT. The blood was put on the door posts outside of the house in Egypt. Every door that had the blood put on the door post God passed over.It is the same with those who trust in the shed blood of Jesus.God passes over those who have their faith in Christ.The works of this faith is that of love and the fruits of the spirit.
Love covers a multitude of sins.Against love their is no law.The gift is freedom from the laws of sin and death. Salvation from onesself and own condemnation.Jesus taught that one who was forgiven much would love much.He forgave sinners and taught them grace and preached laws to the religious and self righteous to reveal their shortcomings,