Forgiving yourself

[javajo]

Karma is one of the laws of the universe, and the one which governs punishment and reward. It's a concept that is admittedly lost on western thinking. Abrahamic religions are based on God Himself dispensing reward and punishment. To us, God is neither just nor unjust. God is pure bliss which we work towards joining with (liberation from rebirths).

A "sin" I might commit is to mindlessly kill something, or even refuse to help another person or being. That act is a karmic sin. Depending on my karmic "scorecard", I may be punished or rewarded in my next rebirth by either being reborn as a cockroach or as a person with all great forune in life. This could go on for millions or billions of births. It's karma (there are actually several categories of karma) that governs my punishment or reward.

We don't believe in a Hell or Heaven as you do; what Heaven (Svarga) and Hell (Naraka) we have are temporary locations where we await rebirth based on our previous lives. They're spiritual "waiting rooms" for the next incarnation.

Thank you for sharing. In my belief, we don't have to 'work toward joining God', rather he has done the work to reconcile us freely to him. I believe God is holy but we are not, we have sinned by disobeying his commandments like, thou shalt not lie, steal, kill, covet, commit adultery, etc. In his justice, he must punish sin, and the penalty is death. So I believe he loves us so much that he sent Jesus to die, thus paying the penalty for our sin. Now all who have trusted in Him have full assurance that they now possess eternal life and experience the joy and peace of knowing they are loved by God unconditionally and will be with him forever. I believe anyone who wants to can be forever saved the moment they trust in Jesus. And with Jesus we are all equal, nobody is better than anyone else. Also I believe Jesus can free people from bondage to demons. Anyway thanks for sharing your beliefs and letting me share mine.

 

[Jainarayan]

No problem. I was born, baptized and raised Christian. Roman Catholic to be precise, then converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. So I know what you mean. For me it didn't work anymore, hence my embracing of Sanatana Dharma, aka Hinduism. There are many paths which lead to one God.

 

[javajo]

No problem. I was born, baptized and raised Christian. Roman Catholic to be precise, then converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. So I know what you mean. For me it didn't work anymore, hence my embracing of Sanatana Dharma, aka Hinduism. There are many paths which lead to one God.

Oh, cool. My parents were Catholic until I was about 8 and then they became I guess what you would call protestants after attending a church my sister was going to, and were prompted to read the Bible more. I was saved when I was 8 upon hearing the Gospel preached at a week long youth outreach. Of course in the many decades since then I have studied to be sure what I believe is true, and it has led me to believe, personally that the Bible is trustworthy. I don't really believe in the many paths, unless those paths eventually lead one to Jesus Christ. So, why did it not work for you anymore? What was the main issue(s)? I am not too familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy, except I think they like to burn a lot of candles .

 

[Commoner]

OK. I see we are definitely not on the same page here. I can try to share what I believe. Who am I to know the mind of God? What I understand is that according to the Bible, God is infinitely holy and just. He cannot let sin go unpunished and the penalty of sin is death. So its a very bad situation, as all have sinned. So, how can a just God reconcile us to himself and still be just toward sin? Sin must be paid for or God is no longer just. Like if we catch a murderer and don't imprison him justice is not served. God knew the penalty must be paid or justice is not served. So, he paid the penalty for us and freely pardons all who trust him that he did that. Paul put it this way:

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 2 Cor. 5:21, Romans 11:32-33

So, in your mind, it's just if I take the place of my sociophatic friend - if I serve his prison sentence for murdering, I don't know, a family of five? This would be "godlike" justice, would it? This would pardon my friend and justice would be served? For whom would justice be served? This might be the most immoral idea I've heard.

God invents "sin", he invents a punishement for sin, death, and he then pardons the sinners and pays their penalty? Please, this is supposed to be justice? It's a twisted game is what it is. Thank god there's no good reason to believe any of it is true.

You seem to think there's some "justice" that is independent of other people. You say "God knew the penalty must be paid or justice is not served." Justice to whom? Can't be god if he's paying for it - that would be absurd. Can't be other people, we deal with injustices within society on our own and most of us find "the death penalty" immoral and inexcusable. So who or what exactly needs to be paid here? To whom is this justice? You've made so many self-contradictory turns to reconcile the blatant flaws and contradictions in this ideology, you've actually found yourself deep enough that you can no longer see the forest for the trees.

Believe in god if you think there is good reason to, but please, don't pretend as if this makes sense.

 

[javajo]

So, in your mind, it's just if I take the place of my sociophatic friend - if I serve his prison sentence for murdering, I don't know, a family of five? This would be "godlike" justice, would it? This would pardon my friend and justice would be served? For whom would justice be served? This might be the most immoral idea I've heard.

God invents "sin", he invents a punishement for sin, death, and he then pardons the sinners and pays their penalty? Please, this is supposed to be justice? It's a twisted game is what it is. Thank god there's no good reason to believe any of it is true.

You seem to think there's some "justice" that is independent of other people. You say "God knew the penalty must be paid or justice is not served." Justice to whom? Can't be god if he's paying for it - that would be absurd. Can't be other people, we deal with injustices within society on our own and most of us find "the death penalty" immoral and inexcusable. So who or what exactly needs to be paid here? To whom is this justice? You've made so many self-contradictory turns to reconcile the blatant flaws and contradictions in this ideology, you've actually found yourself deep enough that you can no longer see the forest for the trees.

Believe in god if you think there is good reason to, but please, don't pretend as if this makes sense.

OK then.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I've never done anything which required me to forgive myself. As for others, I set realistic expectations based on personality and behavior so that I am rarely, if ever, disappointed in what they do.

 

[Jainarayan]

I don't really believe in the many paths, unless those paths eventually lead one to Jesus Christ.

Well yes, that's part and parcel of being Christian. Jesus said no one comes to the Father but through him. And it's important that we can have our own beliefs. I wish that were true everywhere.

So, why did it not work for you anymore? What was the main issue(s)? I am not too familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy, except I think they like to burn a lot of candles .

Yes, the Orthodox loooove their beeswax candles.

As to the why it didn't work for me anymore, it's not that I don't believe that Jesus came to save the world. He did, in a way. He taught a message of love and peace. That could save the world, and by extension, souls. Unfortunately most of his followers have made a mess of things through the milennia. It's up to the individual to keep his message alive.

But that's not the reason. From the time I was a teenager, even as a practicing RC and then EO, I felt drawn to Hinduism. I tried to reconcile Christianity and Hinduism, but couldn't. The tenets of Hinduism were more appealing to me. The "denomination" or "school" I align myself with is called Smārta, meaning a belief which accepts all the major Hindu deities as forms of the one Brahman (God). A diamond has many facets and shows many sides, but there is still only one diamond. We believe that God has many aspects, but is still only one God. So it was really just a personal feeling.

 

[javajo]

Well yes, that's part and parcel of being Christian. Jesus said no one comes to the Father but through him. And it's important that we can have our own beliefs. I wish that were true everywhere.

Yes, I wish everyone were free to believe what they want without threat of persecution.

As to the why it didn't work for me anymore, it's not that I don't believe that Jesus came to save the world. He did, in a way. He taught a message of love and peace. That could save the world, and by extension, souls. Unfortunately most of his followers have made a mess of things through the milennia. It's up to the individual to keep his message alive.

I agree a lot of Christians and nominal Christians screwed things up quite a bit. I think they forgot about the love and peace part. Jesus also kept telling his disciples, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. What are your thoughts on that?

But that's not the reason. From the time I was a teenager, even as a practicing RC and then EO, I felt drawn to Hinduism. I tried to reconcile Christianity and Hinduism, but couldn't. The tenets of Hinduism were more appealing to me. The "denomination" or "school" I align myself with is called Smārta, meaning a belief which accepts all the major Hindu deities as forms of the one Brahman (God). A diamond has many facets and shows many sides, but there is still only one diamond. We believe that God has many aspects, but is still only one God. So it was really just a personal feeling.

I see. There are aspects of Christianity that are difficult to be sure, especially the doctrine of eternal separation or punishment of the wicked. Very hard. But the whole working toward God and maybe going backward in the progression and being an insect for a while and what not is not appealing to me, although at least I guess you eventually achieve bliss, unlike Christianity where it is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment. But I do like the assurance of all the fulfilled prophecies pointing to the verity of the scripture (for me anyway), and I do embrace the doctrine of salvation as a free gift we accept (by faith in Christ), of eternal security of the believer, and the promises of assurance of salvation, and that if/when I die I will be forever with the Lord. But I am going on and on, sorry. I have enjoyed talking with you.

 

[Jainarayan]

Jesus also kept telling his disciples, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. What are your thoughts on that?

At the very least, he was very observant and astute; if he was who he is believed to be... well, then there's the answer. That is, he knew what would happen. Do I think the resurrection happened? I can't disbelieve it or dismiss it out of hand. There are many things that are just not within our capacity to understand.

I have enjoyed talking with you.

Same here. These are how discussions should go. Not like elsewhere on the 'net.

 

[javajo]

At the very least, he was very observant and astute; if he was who he is believed to be... well, then there's the answer. That is, he knew what would happen. Do I think the resurrection happened? I can't disbelieve it or dismiss it out of hand. There are many things that are just not within our capacity to understand.



Same here. These are how discussions should go. Not like elsewhere on the 'net.

Hi! I had to get my son moved into college yesterday, wore me out! Yes, to believe someone came back to life after being dead for that long is asking a lot. I have read of different learned men, some lawyers and some doctors and scientists who set out to "easily" disprove the resurrection who came back believing it was historical fact, which is pretty incredible. I was reading in Acts 5 the other day. The apostles were in trouble by the Pharisees for preaching the resurrection. They were trying to figure out what to do about it when Gamaliel mentioned two others that had claimed to be something and had followers but they all were killed and their movement ceased. He told them not to worry about this one either. He said if its not of God it will come to nought, but if it is of God they couldn't stop it since they would be fighting against God. Since Christianity is still around, I thought maybe it could be of God, and if it is, then that might lend some verity to the resurrection. I guess that's my thot of the day. (I don't have very many).

 

[Commoner]

Hi! I had to get my son moved into college yesterday, wore me out! Yes, to believe someone came back to life after being dead for that long is asking a lot. I have read of different learned men, some lawyers and some doctors and scientists who set out to "easily" disprove the resurrection who came back believing it was historical fact, which is pretty incredible. I was reading in Acts 5 the other day. The apostles were in trouble by the Pharisees for preaching the resurrection. They were trying to figure out what to do about it when Gamaliel mentioned two others that had claimed to be something and had followers but they all were killed and their movement ceased. He told them not to worry about this one either. He said if its not of God it will come to nought, but if it is of God they couldn't stop it since they would be fighting against God. Since Christianity is still around, I thought maybe it could be of God, and if it is, then that might lend some verity to the resurrection. I guess that's my thot of the day. (I don't have very many).

Older religions are still alive today, would that not give credence to their mythos?

Have you ever watched a talent show? Like...American Idol, let's say? Many of them claim that they are greatest singers in the world, destined to be there, some even say this is the path God had set them on. Most of them will fail to make it to the next rounds of the competition, but those few that do will continue to believe what they believed. It's simple selection bias (attrition) and not at all an indication that their faith is guided by god, wouldn't you agree? I mean, unless you think God takes an interest in talent shows over, let's say, disastrous hurricanes, nuclear plant meltdowns...

 

[javajo]

Older religions are still alive today, would that not give credence to their mythos?

Have you ever watched a talent show? Like...American Idol, let's say? Many of them claim that they are greatest singers in the world, destined to be there, some even say this is the path God had set them on. Most of them will fail to make it to the next rounds of the competition, but those few that do will continue to believe what they believed. It's simple selection bias (attrition) and not at all an indication that their faith is guided by god, wouldn't you agree? I mean, unless you think God takes an interest in talent shows over, let's say, disastrous hurricanes, nuclear plant meltdowns...

I understand, the test of time does not indicate whether a religion is truly of God. However, when I read of the great persecution that little body of believers endured, with not only the non-believing Jews trying to stop it, but the Roman Empire killing thousands to try to rid themselves of it, I can still pause and consider it may truly be of God. I'm sorry, I was not paying attention and got off topic here. I hope I can forgive myself! More than that, I hope the moderators can! Sorry!