Forgot Jesus' Message?

[metis]

Gandhi very much loved Jesus' approach in many areas, but also said things like:

"Oh, I don't reject Christ. I love Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike Christ."

"If Jesus came to earth again. He would disown many things that are being done in the name of Christianity,"

"First, I would suggest that all Christians, missionaries begin to live more like Jesus Christ. Second, practice it without adulterating it or toning it down. Third, emphasize love and make it your working force, for love is central in Christianity. Fourth, study the non–Christian religions more sympathetically to find the good that is within them, in order to have a more sympathetic approach to the people."

A couple of things especially whereas Gandhi thought most Christians had pretty much abandoned the teachings of Jesus was in the areas of a willingness to use deadly force and that an individual's prosperity was a sign of God's blessing. He did not feel that all Christians and all churches violated these teachings that he felt were very much present in the gospels, but that most did.

What do you think?

 

[4consideration]

I think there is probably a lot of truth in what Gandhi said, especially that it would include and reflect his own personal experience. So, I have no argument to there likely being some accuracy in it among the large numbers of people that fall under the descriptive label of Christian.

I don't think it's accurate to view Gandhi as an expert about what most Christians do, though.

I think Jesus's message to remove the plank out of one's own eye before worrying about a splinter in another person's eye is missed, or misunderstood, by a lot of people.

That's about all I can contribute at this point, because to me saying much more on the subject wouldn't really be talking about religion, but more like gossiping about people and how I think they don't really, or ought to, practice their religion.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Such views would not be surprising for a man who lived in British India, an India ruled by a supposedly Christian nation. This would no doubt have heavily influenced his views.

 

[metis]

I think there is probably a lot of truth in what Gandhi said, especially that it would include and reflect his own personal experience. So, I have no argument to there likely being some accuracy in it among the large numbers of people that fall under the descriptive label of Christian.

I don't think it's accurate to view Gandhi as an expert about what most Christians do, though.

I think Jesus's message to remove the plank out of one's own eye before worrying about a splinter in another person's eye is missed, or misunderstood, by a lot of people.

That's about all I can contribute at this point, because to me saying much more on the subject wouldn't really be talking about religion, but more like gossiping about people and how I think they don't really, or ought to, practice their religion.

Gandhi tended not to operate under the we/they approach when it came to the issue of religion, and he was often very critical of many of his own Hindus, but not they or any others in a personal way. IOW, he would attack the "sin" and not the "sinner" except in a very open-ended manner. He was very critical of himself and publically would admit his faults.

 

[metis]

Such views would not be surprising for a man who lived in British India, an India ruled by a supposedly Christian nation. This would no doubt have heavily influenced his views.

Absolutely, especially since he saw so many atrocities not only being conducted but also supported by many who he thought should have cried foul. And as I mentioned in my last post, this cut across religious lines. Remember that it was a fellow Hindu that assassinated Gandhi who felt that Gandhi was being too cooperative with Muslems.

 

[Ouroboros]

What do you think?

I agree.

As a Christian, I tried extremely hard to be a good person, kind, gentle, patient, etc (Gal 5:22). One thing that I learned from childhood is not to lie. I have a very hard time lying or fabricating to deceive anyone. I just can't. But what I discovered was that I met a large amount of Christians that have no trouble doing this at all. In our church in Sweden, we actually had some people with a warrant from Interpol (unbeknownst to the leadership, of course). But then... later it was discovered that one of the pastors had an affair, another one embezzling money, and so on. How come they were so tempted to lie like this and hurt people? No shame. And here, in the US, I think it's even worse. The best people I've met so far, honest, helpful, loving, are either Jewish, agnostic, atheist, or Catholic. Most of the Evangelical Christians I've met here are just weirdly egoistical (or perhaps self-centered is more accurate). Very strange. It's a very bad testimony. But of course, I do know that there are good hearted Christians out there too. It's just a bad sign for their faith and religion that they can't keep up the promise of betterment.

 

[metis]

I agree.

As a Christian, I tried extremely hard to be a good person, kind, gentle, patient, etc (Gal 5:22). One thing that I learned from childhood is not to lie. I have a very hard time lying or fabricating to deceive anyone. I just can't. But what I discovered was that I met a large amount of Christians that have no trouble doing this at all. In our church in Sweden, we actually had some people with a warrant from Interpol (unbeknownst to the leadership, of course). But then... later it was discovered that one of the pastors had an affair, another one embezzling money, and so on. How come they were so tempted to lie like this and hurt people? No shame. And here, in the US, I think it's even worse. The best people I've met so far, honest, helpful, loving, are either Jewish, agnostic, atheist, or Catholic. Most of the Evangelical Christians I've met here are just weirdly egoistical (or perhaps self-centered is more accurate). Very strange. It's a very bad testimony. But of course, I do know that there are good hearted Christians out there too. It's just a bad sign for their faith and religion that they can't keep up the promise of betterment.

Thanks for chiming in on this in such a brutally honest way. :clap Gotta go for now, but I'll get back with ya tomorrow.

BTW, say "HI!" to my relatives over there.

 

[Brickjectivity]

As a Christian, I tried extremely hard to be a good person, kind, gentle, patient, etc (Gal 5:22). One thing that I learned from childhood is not to lie. I have a very hard time lying or fabricating to deceive anyone. I just can't. But what I discovered was that I met a large amount of Christians that have no trouble doing this at all. In our church in Sweden, we actually had some people with a warrant from Interpol (unbeknownst to the leadership, of course). But then... later it was discovered that one of the pastors had an affair, another one embezzling money, and so on. How come they were so tempted to lie like this and hurt people? No shame. And here, in the US, I think it's even worse. The best people I've met so far, honest, helpful, loving, are either Jewish, agnostic, atheist, or Catholic. Most of the Evangelical Christians I've met here are just weirdly egoistical. Very strange. It's a very bad testimony.

That story resonates with me. I think it is because Christians are so vulnerable here and trust ministers so easily. There was a time when that didn't cause so much arrogance, but innovations in ministry tools have made it dangerous to be so trusting. Now instead of hymns we have something else, and Christians are encouraged not to think during services. I kid you not: Christians are actively encouraged not to think; and the tools of hypnotism are blatantly used each Sunday.

He did not feel that all Christians and all churches violated these teachings that he felt were very much present in the gospels, but that most did.
What do you think?

I see a lot of good, and its best not to go into detail over every bad thing. The main symptom that I think all Christians recognize is that they are parcelled up into groups by their belief choices. That is something Jesus would not be pleased about. It benefits corrupt ministers who like to corral people using strong arguments and put them into pens where they will listen to strong words and will hear speeches about how God loves cheerful giving, how God's work requires money, money, money. God is soooo dependent upon money, moreso than ever before. People are separated, families divided. This divisiveness also is what allowed the USA churches to endorse slavery and segregation, with segregation being ended merely 60 years ago! Jesus emphasized not judging others, and I think that is a message that is not being heard today or is not being received.

 

[Ouroboros]

Thanks for chiming in on this in such a brutally honest way. :clap Gotta go for now, but I'll get back with ya tomorrow.

Brutal honesty is my middle name.

 

[Sunstone]

Following Jesus is, as Jesus himself seems to have known, something most people are not disposed to do.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I agree.

As a Christian, I tried extremely hard to be a good person, kind, gentle, patient, etc (Gal 5:22). One thing that I learned from childhood is not to lie. I have a very hard time lying or fabricating to deceive anyone. I just can't. But what I discovered was that I met a large amount of Christians that have no trouble doing this at all. In our church in Sweden, we actually had some people with a warrant from Interpol (unbeknownst to the leadership, of course). But then... later it was discovered that one of the pastors had an affair, another one embezzling money, and so on. How come they were so tempted to lie like this and hurt people? No shame. And here, in the US, I think it's even worse. The best people I've met so far, honest, helpful, loving, are either Jewish, agnostic, atheist, or Catholic. Most of the Evangelical Christians I've met here are just weirdly egoistical (or perhaps self-centered is more accurate). Very strange. It's a very bad testimony. But of course, I do know that there are good hearted Christians out there too. It's just a bad sign for their faith and religion that they can't keep up the promise of betterment.

I don't know why, but for some reason it is easy to imagine American evangelical Christians behaving in that way. A stereotype within my mind, I suppose.

Anyway, I would have to say that many Christians I have found here in Britain (the practising ones, that is) are kind and generally great people. But I'm a Christian, so I'm biased and I may be prone to say that sort of thing.

Not to say I haven't met hypocritical Christians, I've met many, but I have to say that within the Anglican churches, at least in the ones I have attended, the eagerness to volunteer, community service, street pastoring, has been great. (In England, street pastors are people who patrol the streets at night making sure vulnerable people who go out and get stupidly drunk get home safely, providing blankets, etc.)

I don't know, it's something about liturgical and more traditional denominations with a sound structure which seem to be better at this. As you said, Catholics seem to be among the nicest you've met, and I would agree there and add in the rest of Christians that belong to more liturgical churches (Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans). I believe the strength there is that the chances of a pastor abusing power over the congregation, looking for self-gain, money etc. are much smaller, because there is a regulation within the greater church and a hierarchy. There does seem to be a stronger push within sermons as well for the congregation to get out there and do more, and to love more, serve more, etc. I would say that there is a stronger community feel to liturgical churches, where as in more independent evangelical type churches it is far more individualistic.

Hoping no one will take this as an insult towards non-liturgical churches though. I attended a Pentecostal church when I used to live in Wales, and they were some of the loveliest people I've ever known. It really differs from place to place.

 

[InChrist]

Gandhi very much loved Jesus' approach in many areas, but also said things like:

"Oh, I don't reject Christ. I love Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike Christ."

"If Jesus came to earth again. He would disown many things that are being done in the name of Christianity,"

"First, I would suggest that all Christians, missionaries begin to live more like Jesus Christ. Second, practice it without adulterating it or toning it down. Third, emphasize love and make it your working force, for love is central in Christianity. Fourth, study the non–Christian religions more sympathetically to find the good that is within them, in order to have a more sympathetic approach to the people."

A couple of things especially whereas Gandhi thought most Christians had pretty much abandoned the teachings of Jesus was in the areas of a willingness to use deadly force and that an individual's prosperity was a sign of God's blessing. He did not feel that all Christians and all churches violated these teachings that he felt were very much present in the gospels, but that most did.

What do you think?

I think much of what you have posted and Gandhi said is very valid. I think it is important to look at Jesus Christ... not Christians, their behavior, or the "religion" they practice which so often falls short and even contradicts the Person of Jesus Christ. While I think it is important to understand various non-Christian religions in order to have a more sympathetic approach to others, I don't think there is good to be found within any religion, including Christianity, if practiced as a mere religion. This is the mistake I think Gandhi made. He looked at Christians or Christian churches and saw the shortcoming and hypocrisy. This prevented him from looking to Christ alone for goodness and salvation. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

[Gjallarhorn]

How hard is it to forget "don't be a hypocrite"?

 

[ChristineES]

Gandhi very much loved Jesus' approach in many areas, but also said things like:

"Oh, I don't reject Christ. I love Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike Christ."

"If Jesus came to earth again. He would disown many things that are being done in the name of Christianity,"

"First, I would suggest that all Christians, missionaries begin to live more like Jesus Christ. Second, practice it without adulterating it or toning it down. Third, emphasize love and make it your working force, for love is central in Christianity. Fourth, study the non–Christian religions more sympathetically to find the good that is within them, in order to have a more sympathetic approach to the people."

A couple of things especially whereas Gandhi thought most Christians had pretty much abandoned the teachings of Jesus was in the areas of a willingness to use deadly force and that an individual's prosperity was a sign of God's blessing. He did not feel that all Christians and all churches violated these teachings that he felt were very much present in the gospels, but that most did.

What do you think?

I hate to say it, but it's true. There is much more to being a Christian than just believing God and Jesus; we are commanded to have kindness, mercy, and more when we are Christians. We are commanded to serve others, to love our neighbors as ourselves, to love our enemies, and so much more. A lot of my fellow Christians don't do that.

 

[Quagmire]

Sometimes I wonder if the early church made Jesus a god so they'd have an excuse when they fell short of his example.

 

[metis]

I see a lot of good, and its best not to go into detail over every bad thing. The main symptom that I think all Christians recognize is that they are parcelled up into groups by their belief choices. That is something Jesus would not be pleased about. It benefits corrupt ministers who like to corral people using strong arguments and put them into pens where they will listen to strong words and will hear speeches about how God loves cheerful giving, how God's work requires money, money, money. God is soooo dependent upon money, moreso than ever before. People are separated, families divided. This divisiveness also is what allowed the USA churches to endorse slavery and segregation, with segregation being ended merely 60 years ago! Jesus emphasized not judging others, and I think that is a message that is not being heard today or is not being received.

Another brutally honest statement.:clap

In Judaism we sometimes run across much the same whereas parts of halacha (Jewish Law) are ignored by some of those who claim to completely follow it-- sorta picking-and-choosing.

 

[metis]

I hate to say it, but it's true. There is much more to being a Christian than just believing God and Jesus; we are commanded to have kindness, mercy, and more when we are Christians. We are commanded to serve others, to love our neighbors as ourselves, to love our enemies, and so much more. A lot of my fellow Christians don't do that.

I agree, and sometimes I have to wonder if some ministers, rabbis, and imams are maybe more into money than even attempting to teach in an honest manner. I know that sounds terribly snarky, but I've run across too much self-serving hypocrisy over my 69 years.

OTOH, I am also pretty convinced that there are many in these faiths who do try their best to teach what is right even if it isn't always convenient to do so. I personally know of a Lutheran minister back in the 1970's who got fired by his congregation when he labeled racism as being a sin during one of his sermons and refused to back down when confronted by the church council.

 

[metis]

I think much of what you have posted and Gandhi said is very valid. I think it is important to look at Jesus Christ... not Christians, their behavior, or the "religion" they practice which so often falls short and even contradicts the Person of Jesus Christ. While I think it is important to understand various non-Christian religions in order to have a more sympathetic approach to others, I don't think there is good to be found within any religion, including Christianity, if practiced as a mere religion. This is the mistake I think Gandhi made. He looked at Christians or Christian churches and saw the shortcoming and hypocrisy. This prevented him from looking to Christ alone for goodness and salvation. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

I think we have to look at both the message and the messengers because sometimes they don't match up well.

As far as Gandhi's approach is concerned, I'm afraid you have mistaken his approach. He not only intensely studied the Bible, he also had a great many Christian ministers that he kept frequent correspondence with. He deeply admired both the man and the teachings of Jesus, but he didn't believe one had to believe about Jesus being a savior in order to please God. To him, he rejected the idea that belief in anything by itself would "save" one. He especially was bothered by those who strutted around claiming to be "saved" and then doing things that clearly ran against what Jesus taught, and some of them he said truly acted often in a nasty and self-centered manner.