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Formless God

K.Venugopal

Immobile Wanderer
Ashtavakra's dialogues with emperor Janak are known as Ashtavakra Gita. Not much is known about Ashtavakra and very little historical records exist. Only few incidents are known which signify the flavour of the being whom society had labelled Ashtavakra.

One such was when Ashtavakra was still in his mother’s womb. His father, who was a well known Vedic scholar, would recite the Vedas everyday.One day came a voice from the womb. "This is all nonsense. Mere collection of words, no wisdom.Is wisdom found in scriptures? Is truth found in words? Wisdom and Truth are only in oneself." Enraged at being challenged, he being the great erudite scholar, the father cursed that the boy will be born deformed in eight places. Ashtavakra was born deformed, body bent in 8 places (hence the name Ashtavakra).


The second incident was as a 12 year old boy. Ashtavakra goes to call his father from a debate which was going on for very long at the court of the emperor Janak. His father was debating with other scholars on the meaning of Truth. Entering the court to look for his father, the scholars looking at the hunchback, bent in 8 directions, many burst out laughing. Looking at them Ashtavakra in turn burst out laughing. Such was the force of Ashtavakra's laugh that the court is rendered silent. Emperor Janak asks why is he Ashtavakra laughing? Answers Ashtavakra, "I am laughing because Truth is being decided in this conference of cobblers." To call Vedic scholars and Pundits mere cobblers was to invite the death penalty in those days. In that shocked silence in the court, Emperor Janak asks Ashtavakra to explain what he means. Says Ashtavakra, “Like cobblers who only know the skin, this gathering only sees my deformed body, not me. Your majesty, in the curve of the temple is the sky curved? When a pot is smashed, is the sky smashed? My body is twisted, not me but these cobblers cannot see that. What Truth can they see?"
 
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UnityNow101

Well-Known Member
You watch too much TV. What's worse, you believe what you see.

I personally know Christians that believe God to be an old man with a grey beard in the sky looking down and judging with a righteous gavel. It is not something that is foreign to modern-day Christianity. And it is not something that is simply being taught on the televangelist airwaves...
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
I personally know Christians that believe God to be an old man with a grey beard in the sky looking down and judging with a righteous gavel.
So do I, but there are bad examples in EVERY religion. Then again, "It matters little what idea of the Father you may entertain so long as you are spiritually acquainted with the ideal of his infinite and eternal nature."

You know them by their fruits, not their beliefs.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
How could a God of spirit walk among Adam and Eve in the Garden? There is evidence in the Bible that God was a physical being.


Describing something that defies description can end up being misleading for those who don't understand that it defies description.

I wonder how skilled you are at recognizing metaphors...
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Not very, but I do indeed try...

Then upon your next reading of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, regard all anthropomorphisms of God as metaphors... i.e. God's back, strong hand and outstretched arm, God's face, ears, eyes, mouth, feet, throne, walking, etc... all metaphors.
 

K.Venugopal

Immobile Wanderer
Then upon your next reading of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, regard all anthropomorphisms of God as metaphors... i.e. God's back, strong hand and outstretched arm, God's face, ears, eyes, mouth, feet, throne, walking, etc... all metaphors.
Isn't God Himself a metaphor - a metaphor for the highest, wisest, deepest and the most incredible that man can conceive of?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Then upon your next reading of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, regard all anthropomorphisms of God as metaphors... i.e. God's back, strong hand and outstretched arm, God's face, ears, eyes, mouth, feet, throne, walking, etc... all metaphors.

Excellent, and the blind will see, and deaf will hear.

Isn't God Himself a metaphor - a metaphor for the highest, wisest, deepest and the most incredible that man can conceive of?

Sort of, but a metaphor is a figure of speech whereas the word 'God' is a mental image/concept that is not real in itself (except as a concept), but it stands for the REAL ONE.

And furthermore, are not all names mere labels/images that are meant to stand for the real thing that they represent.

Zen meditation practice is about the cessation of conceptual thinking through stilling of the mind, so that the REAL is revealed directly, rather then the human concept of it. This is to avoid the error of mental idolatry.
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Sort of, but a metaphor is a figure of speech whereas the word 'God' is a mental image/concept that is not real in itself (except as a concept), but it stands for the REAL ONE.

"The Tao defined is not the Eternal Tao; no name can name the Eternal Name."
-Tao Te Ching

:D
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
How could a God of spirit walk among Adam and Eve in the Garden? There is evidence in the Bible that God was a physical being.

No, He's not a physical being. See John 4:24 -"God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
God has hind parts as shown on Moses on Exodus 33:23 "Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen." but that doesn't prove His physical being.
 

Paraprakrti

Custom User
I stumbled on a quote from the Gita. I like it a lot.
Whatever takes form is false.
Only the formless endures.

When you understand
The truth of this teaching,
You will not be born again.

For God is infinite,
Within the body and without,
Like a mirror,
And the image in a mirror.

As the air is everywhere,
Flowing around a pot
And filling it,
So God is everywhere,
Filling all things
And flowing through them forever.

- Ashtavakra Gita 1: 18-20

Mainly Christianity has labelled God as an old white man in white robes with a grey beard. How cany anyone possibly know that?

To me, this quote is the answer.

When someone says "the Gita," the first thing that comes to mind is the Bhagavad-Gita.

Anyway, I disagree. Other Vedic texts make it clear that God has a form and that God's form is not Maya (material illusion.) Krishna also explains in the Bhagavad-Gita that He appears by His own internal potency (yogamaya, not mahamaya.) That mahamaya refers to the illusory material nature. The advaitist philosophers argue that such avatars or incarnations of God are forms under that mahamaya potency, but this is explicitly spoken against in the Bhagavad-Gita and other Vedic texts. But I agree that God is certainly not an old man. Old age has nothing to do with eternity. It makes more sense that God would have an eternally youthful form.
 

Paraprakrti

Custom User
I stumbled on a quote from the Gita. I like it a lot.
Whatever takes form is false.
Only the formless endures.

Therefore God does not "take" form. Rather, God's form is eternal. The distinction being drawn here is a relative one. Forms that manifest from this mahamaya potency in relation to our material senses are, so to speak, false. And what is called "formless" herein is also a relative consideration. That is, God is seemingly formless in relation to those material senses. But the material senses are not all-in-all. It is just like many Christians will say that we are incapable of seeing God; that the brightness would blind us. However, if God gives you the eyes to see, then you can see. God never accepts illusory form, but that doesn't mean that God is absolutely formless.
 
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GURSIKH

chardi kla
dear Don Penguinoini the words of gita you pasted are beautiful

guru nanak also says the same

The Creative Power and the Creation are ONE Sat Nam Its Identity is TRUTH It is the Doer of everything Beyond fear Beyond Revenge Beyond Death Image of the Infinite Unborn Full of LightTo experience this is the Guru’s Gift MEDITATE! Such PRIMAL TRUTHTRUE FOR ALL TIME TRUE AT THIS MOMENT Nanak O NANAKFOREVER TRUE

thanx
 
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Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
God has hind parts as shown on Moses on Exodus 33:23 "Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen." but that doesn't prove His physical being.
Are you saying that God has a back and a bum, but the rest is spirit???
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Are you saying that God has a back and a bum, but the rest is spirit???

All scripture is based on allegory, metaphor, etc..

That God is transcendent to creation and immanent in it at the same time would fit the esoteric meaning of the quoted passage.

My kingdom is not of this earth says Jesus,...translates roughly into...mortals can only see the earthy (visible) side of God, not the spiritual.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
My kingdom is not of this earth says Jesus,...translates roughly into...mortals can only see the earthy (visible) side of God, not the spiritual.
Or that Jesus was from Gallifrey, which would explain why no-one recognised him when he resurrected.
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
Are you saying that God has a back and a bum, but the rest is spirit???

Why not? The Bible says that God has eyes and hands. I'm not saying that the rest of Him(aside frome what I mentioned about hind parts)
is spirit. I'm saying that He is a spirit(pure spirit) and has hind parts
 
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