Do you have a point?
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Forsaken the Foreskin
- Thread starter The Sum of Awe
- Start date
When was that suppose to have happened?
What do you think? Why?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
What has been confirmed through the use of glottochronology (study of how languages evolved) is that the scriptural texts we read were written typically long after tne events covered even when the text implies that something either recently happened or is going to happen through prophecy. IOW, it's essentially looking at past events, usually passed on through oral traditions over centuries, then typically placing God as dealing with these events one way or another.
It is not dishonesty, but an attempt to link events, real or imaginery or a bit of both, to God, because the mindset then was God had a direct hand in everything. Since it's impossible today to tell which events covered in scripture are exact, which may be folk-tales, or those in-between the two, my "solution" is to treat them all as allegory, and then derive out of these narratives the main teachings of values and morals that may be deciferred.
Between the vagueness of the messianic predictions, along with the issues of subjectivity, symbolism, and folk-tales, I don't take a literalist approach. For example, I have problems with the Passover narrative if taken word-for-word literally.
My outlook towards God is undoubtedly very different than yours, so let me briefly cover this. To me, "God" is whatever caused our universe.multiverse, and I pretty much stop at that with the exception that I agree with Gandhi in that "God" probably is both "Truth" and "Love". "Truth" in that whatever is, is. "Love" in that we learn right from the get-go as infants that if we are loved, it feels "good", but if we are not loved, it feels "bad". Could there be any message simpler and more basic than that?
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
We may need to call it dishonesty; people are believing these things to be completely honest accounts of God, history, and future events.
If God is truth, why endorse inaccuracies about Him? Our beliefs are closer than you think; I believe God caused the Universe- but, I do not divide time into three parts, or call it linear. Instead, I call God reality; the only accurate description of truth. Ironically, while I understand the 'trinity' concept, I do not divide God in that way either. God is all-knowing, but His children are ignorant, claiming to be gods themselves.
Akivah
Well-Known Member
When pronouns are used, the correct identification of who they are referring to is noted from the context of the surrounding material. Exo Chapter 4 is describing a conversation between G-d and Moses. The identification of the word "he" is dependent on the context of the verses. For example, the "he" in verse 2 (And the Lord said to him, "What is this in your hand?" And he said, "A staff.") is Moses whereas the two "he in verse 3 (And He said, "Cast it to the ground," and he cast it to the ground, and it became a serpent, and Moses fled from before it.), the first he is G-d and the second he is Moses. Verse 21 notes that G-d is talking to Moses. The he in verse 24 is plainly Moses. To insert a Pharaoh identification into this verse defies logical sense and the plain meaning of the entire chapter. If Pharoah is the he in verse 24, then it would be very odd that Aaron kissed Pharoah in verse 27.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
No, I simply cannot go that far. Generally speaking, I think it more likely the authors were mostly parroting what had been passed down to them over the generations.
I'm not willing to go that far as far as descriptors are concerned. Matter of fact, I can't even claim there's only one God. Truth and Love I can accept for reasons I covered previously, but I really can't take it much further than that, and maybe I went even further than I should.
I'd be interested in your source.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
There are numerous sources that cover this, and one of them is the JPS Study Bible. One can Google for other sources as well. Ever read BAR, btw?
BTW, as a "Trivial Pursuit" question, which is the oldest book in the Tanakh, according to this methodology?
I own it. would you help me with a page reference?
Yes, I can. Does this mean you do not wish to share your source(s).
Yes. I have an online subscription. Is there a particular article that you found probative?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
At the beginning of each section, there's descriptions as to authorship, time written, plus plenty of other information. In our Torah study sessions, we use this as our main source, but then utilize others as well.
As far as my other sources, I'm at my place up north, all my materials are at my place downstate, and I'm not driving eight hours to get them.
BTW, you didn't answer my question.
Also, granted it is a questionable source, you might check this out, especially the chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible
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Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Exo 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son,
Exo 4:23 and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me." If you refuse to let him go, behold, I will kill your firstborn son.'"
Exo 4:24 At a lodging place on the way the LORD met him and sought to put him to death.
I will kill YOUR firstborn son....... who was he talking about.
I typically reference the JSB weekly and recall no reference to or demonstration of "the use of glottochronology". I'd very much like to see a specific example so that I can better understand precisely what you meant.
Don't get snippy - no one is asking you to drive eight hours to answer a question. If you need to get back to me on this, that's fine.
I saw it as a diversion. But, if you're willing to tell us "as a "Trivial Pursuit" question, which is the oldest book in the Tanakh, according to this methodology" and cite your source(s) I would be very appreciative.
I found it pretty superficial verging on worthless. Particularly:
When was he talking about?
Is there some reason that you find yourself uncomfortable with the question, Robert? Wouldn't it be better to simply admit that you need to rethink this stuff - and that, just perhaps, scholars such as Sarna and Alter know literally volumes more than you? 
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
You can choose to ignore whatever you want, and I'm somewhat "snippy" because the tone I'm picking up from you is that I'm being dishonest and using "diversion", the latter of which if correct would be a form of dishonesty.
Even though Wikipedia is far from being inerrant, the general time-line used in what I linked you to seems to be pretty much on target based on some other sources I've seen over the years. However, I cannot vouch for any specific dates.
Just recently, for an example, there was archaeological research reported indicating the the domestication of the camel came after the time period supposedly covered in Torah, so the feeling is that the texts were written later but then referred back to an earlier time period. This seems not at all to be unusual, and the "Jewish Study Bible" actually mentions other such projections backwards, although I can't specifically remember which in particular with maybe one exception.
Also as far as the "Jewish Study Bible is concerned, you might check out the explanation to the book of Daniel, as I believe I recall that dating to be much as I mentioned according to the JPS, namely being written much later than the events covered.
Finally, I posted what I have read, along with a link, and the only thing you have contributed is sarcasm and essentially implying I'm being dishonest. Therefore, I have no inclination to discuss this with you any further, although I'm willing to discuss it with others if they're interested.
Shabbat shalom
BTW, the oldest text appears to be the book of Job, the first five chapters. There's a fair number of on-line sources that cover this, and here's one of them: The Oldest Book [Job 1-5] | The Scroll Eaters
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
BTW, for any interested, here's a piece from an article that relates:
THE SPREAD OF LITERACY AND ORIGINS OF BIBLICAL LITERATURE
The invention of alphabetic writing was a pivotal development in the history of writing, but it alone did not encourage the spread of writing beyond the palace and the temple. Recent discoveries at Wadi el-Hol in Egypt date the invention of the alphabet back to 2000 B.C., and for centuries after, writing likely remained the province of the elite. So what allowed the alphabet to spread beyond religious and literary elites to be used by soldiers, merchants, and even common workmen? It was the urbanization and globalization of society. This process began in the eighth century B.C. with the rise of the Assyrian Empire, which encouraged urbanization as part of a plan for economically exploiting its growing territory.
I believe that the formative period for the writing of biblical literature also began at this time and stretched roughly from the eighth through the sixth century B.C., when the social and political conditions for the expansion of writing in ancient Israel flourished. With the rise of the Assyrian Empire, ancient Palestine became more urban, and writing became critical to the increasingly complex economy. Writing was important to the bureaucracy of Jerusalem. It also continued to serve as an ideological tool projecting the power of kings. At the end of the eighth century in both Mesopotamia and Egypt, rulers were collecting the ancient books, and ancient Judeans followed their model—collecting the traditions, stories, and laws of their ancestors into written manuscripts.
The evidence of archaeology and inscriptions suggests a spread of writing through all classes of society by the seventh century B.C. in Judah. This allowed for a momentous shift in the role of writing in society that is reflected in the reforms of King Josiah at the end of the seventh century; writing became a tool of religious reformers who first proclaimed the authority of the written word. This new role of the written word is particularly reflected in the Book of Deuteronomy, which commands the masses to write down the words of God, to read it and treasure it in their hearts, and to post the written word on the entrance to their homes. -- NOVA | Origins of the Written Bible [underlining is mine]
THE SPREAD OF LITERACY AND ORIGINS OF BIBLICAL LITERATURE
The invention of alphabetic writing was a pivotal development in the history of writing, but it alone did not encourage the spread of writing beyond the palace and the temple. Recent discoveries at Wadi el-Hol in Egypt date the invention of the alphabet back to 2000 B.C., and for centuries after, writing likely remained the province of the elite. So what allowed the alphabet to spread beyond religious and literary elites to be used by soldiers, merchants, and even common workmen? It was the urbanization and globalization of society. This process began in the eighth century B.C. with the rise of the Assyrian Empire, which encouraged urbanization as part of a plan for economically exploiting its growing territory.
I believe that the formative period for the writing of biblical literature also began at this time and stretched roughly from the eighth through the sixth century B.C., when the social and political conditions for the expansion of writing in ancient Israel flourished. With the rise of the Assyrian Empire, ancient Palestine became more urban, and writing became critical to the increasingly complex economy. Writing was important to the bureaucracy of Jerusalem. It also continued to serve as an ideological tool projecting the power of kings. At the end of the eighth century in both Mesopotamia and Egypt, rulers were collecting the ancient books, and ancient Judeans followed their model—collecting the traditions, stories, and laws of their ancestors into written manuscripts.
The evidence of archaeology and inscriptions suggests a spread of writing through all classes of society by the seventh century B.C. in Judah. This allowed for a momentous shift in the role of writing in society that is reflected in the reforms of King Josiah at the end of the seventh century; writing became a tool of religious reformers who first proclaimed the authority of the written word. This new role of the written word is particularly reflected in the Book of Deuteronomy, which commands the masses to write down the words of God, to read it and treasure it in their hearts, and to post the written word on the entrance to their homes. -- NOVA | Origins of the Written Bible [underlining is mine]
Shabbat shalom.
Oh, and perhaps we'll chat about Job when I get back home.
Akivah
Well-Known Member
I think I see where you're confused. The narrative is not in strict chronological order. Verse 19 and 20 are G-d talking to Moses at the present time. Verses 21 to 23 are G-d telling Moses what will happen in the future when Moses meets with Pharaoh. Verse 24 resumes the narrative at the present time. I put the he pronoun identification in { }.
20. So Moses took his wife and his sons, mounted them upon the donkey, and he {Moses} returned to the land of Egypt, and Moses took the staff of God in his hand.
21. The Lord said to Moses, "When you go to return to Egypt, see all the signs that I have placed in your hand and perform them before Pharaoh, but I will strengthen his {Pharaoh} heart, and he {Pharoah} will not send out the people.
22. And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'So said the Lord, "My firstborn son is Israel."
23. So I say to you, 'Send out My son so that he {the nation Israel} will worship Me, but if you refuse to send him {the nation Israel} out, behold, I am going to slay your {Pharaoh} firstborn son.' "
24. Now he {Moses} was on the way, in an inn, that the Lord met him {Moses} and sought to put him {Moses} to death.
Do you understand now?
Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
So you are saying that Mosheh is the firstborn son of the Pharaoh, which he was not. Also, is it not strange that God tells Mosheh he is going to be killed?
EDIT:
though I appreciate your effort
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