France Court rejects anti-islamic burkina ban

[LuisDantas]

I think you may be overgeneralizing a bit, Luis. Muslim women's dress in some regions, eastern Europe, for example, is often indistinguishable from that of the christian community, and fifty years ago Muslim women in western dress were a common sight on the streets of Baghdad, Kabul and Tehran.

I think the current wave of fundamentalism sweeping the middle East is largely a reaction to western imperialism and exploitation, fanned by demagogues trying to gain from the situation.

Let's hope so. I remain pessimistic, though. I think we would have seen a lot more evidence of it if you were correct in your assessment.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Apparently Islam is not really compatible with the personal freedoms that a modern, enlightened society needs.

This is certainly true of some, perhaps many, Muslims' versions of Islaam. Whilst it's not completely clear what you mean by 'personal freedoms', I certainly have no problem with the kinds of personal freedoms accorded in 'the West'.

If religion is defined by adherence to belief in God, a scripture and/or a prophet

This seems to me a very limited definition of religion.

If a religion is instead defined, as I think it should be, by its ability to bring security, harmony, morality, solidarity and virtue in general to the people who learn it

Why should it be defined this way?

the social expectations of a society that never wanted and shall never want nor allow itself to become Muslim.

You don't know what French society might want in the future (to the extent that a society ever 'wants' anything).

 

[Pastek]

What you are saying Luis is very sad.

It's not the muslims who created the polemic it cames from the FN (a racist party).
It all started because an association wanted a schedule for muslims women and it was accepted as it was a private center.
So as you see nothing incredible, but then other mayors started to banish muslim womens and then averyone is talking about this.
And you say "Apparently Islam is not really compatible with the personal freedoms that a modern, enlightened society needs."

But what are you talking about ? What does it have to do with women who just want to swim ? I don't understand all that you are criticizing about.


This remind me of the guy (i think in Switzerland) who wanted to banish minarets because he said it was obviously a sign that muslims want control the world blabla.
Then they start to create some posters against muslim :

It cames to the french newspapers and for months they debated (in France too) about the minarets.

Anyway when there's no bad news about muslims some feel they have to create it.

As i said above, it seems that people always have to say something when it comes to Islam, i'm waiting for the next polemic ...


By the way many non-muslim women bought a burkini for other reasons.

"30% of those who bought burkinis are not muslims"
"Many are skin cancer survivors who searched since very long time something like that" said Ms Zanetti

https://fr.sputniknews.com/international/201608271027480217-musulmanes-ventes-burkini/

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Ever hear about Raif Badawi?

What's happening with him? Have you heard anything?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

What if some women chose to wear diving suit?

Do they wear it for religious reasons? If yes then it would be banned in France. If not, then no. French society is more fiercely secular than others in Europe, and with good reason. The French are all-too-aware of what happens when you allow domineering, intolerant religions to have influence over government. European history is replete with such examples.

 

[columbus]

What's happening with him? Have you heard anything?

No I haven't.
Perhaps the USA liberal media doesn't want to rile up our staunch allies, the Wahhabist monarchy of Saud.
We've got Trump and Daesh to keep the masses glued to the advertisers.
Tom

 

[Skwim]

Also foreigns tourists can be in bikini in many muslims countries : Turkey, Morrocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Senegal, Malaysia, Dubai etc ... but when some women want to hide their parts they say "we are not allowed in your countries" which of course is false ... except if you go in Iran or KSA but who goes their for the holidays ? The majority go in the countries are mentionned so this is pure hypocrisy.

I suggest you Google "beach resorts Saudi Arabia."


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[Revoltingest]

They think it's defending secularism. But what it's really doing is something else given that even non-Muslim women with sun-sensitive skin are forbidden from wearing garments that would allow them to enjoy the beach. Further it's the opposite side of this coin: men are arguing about what women are allowed to wear or not wear:

Who says women aren't arguing this too?

 

[sun rise]

Who says women aren't arguing this too?

I don't see many female members of the morality police or in the case of France, the immorality police. Besides, I thought you were a libertarian which would mean that a woman had the right to decide what she would or would not wear.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't see many female members of the morality police or in the case of France, the immorality police. Besides, I thought you were a libertarian which would mean that a woman had the right to decide what she would or would not wear.

Regarding unreasonable dress codes.....
I look at it broadly (not a pun), ie, no person (of any gender) should be dictating what others (of any gender) wear.
So the problem isn't that men are telling women what to wear....it's that anyone is telling them what to wear.

 

[Tumah]

Mayors do not have the right to ban burkinis, France's highest administrative court ruled Friday.

The Council of State's ruling suspends a ban in the town of Villeneuve-Loubet, near Nice, and could affect cities around the country that have prohibited the full-length swimsuit.




Court teaches the French a good lesson. Its a warning for them not to become the new Nazis.

I agree with the court's ruling against the banning.
And I also think you need to read up on the Nazis before bandying around these labels. If you're using it for shock value, you're going to end up paying out of your integrity wallet.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Before the woman on the French beach was told by armed police to remove her burkini I supported this ban. After that I wasn't so sure. But since the OP has said elsewhere that Muslims should respect the laws of non-Muslim countries, and the general consensus among Muslim countries that non-Muslims should obey the laws there no matter how discriminatory, I'm going to lean slightly more in favour of the ban for the moment. I also agree with Luis that there's no painless solution to this in either direction. It's worth recognising both sides display significant hypocrisy; those in favour of the ban view Islamic body coverings as part of a culture of female ****-shaming & victim-blaming (which they are) and want to uphold women's' liberty by restricting what they can wear in public. Those against the ban generally think it's not okay for France to enforce its own cultural standards on migrants bringing with them foreign cultures and social norms, but don't seem to have any complaints either the fact that Moroccans are getting uppity about burkini bans in private hotels in their own country because it 'goes against Islamic values', or that veiling & body covering is really not an option for women in most Muslim countries. It's at least socially obligated, sometimes it's legally obligatory. Western feminists also seem to have no problem fighting against patriarchal cultures inherent to Europe, but are willing to lie down and let minorities with conflicting social & cultural norms have their way.

So for the moment I'm going to stay on the side of the burkini ban as I believe it runs counter to contemporary European culture and is a symptom of a culture which consistently places the blame on women for mens' feelings that is doing nothing to change this view, and which is a threat to our own more liberal societies. I'm not a cultural relativist. European culture is superior to Islamic culture and we ought to defend it.

 

[viole]

What you are saying Luis is very sad.
This remind me of the guy (i think in Switzerland) who wanted to banish minarets because he said it was obviously a sign that muslims want control the world blabla.
Then they start to create some posters against muslim :

Yes, it was in Switzerland. As the flag on those posters indicate.

And now minarets are banned in Switzerland, by popular vote.

Ciao

- viole

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

No I haven't.
Perhaps the USA liberal media doesn't want to rile up our staunch allies, the Wahhabist monarchy of Saud.
We've got Trump and Daesh to keep the masses glued to the advertisers.
Tom

Most unfortunate. I can't believe the Saudis are actually on a UN human rights committee as well. People should be lighting a fire under their asses to do something constructive about the human rights violations in their own country.

 

[columbus]

Most unfortunate. I can't believe the Saudis are actually on a UN human rights committee as well. People should be lighting a fire under their asses to do something constructive about the human rights violations in their own country.

The irony is poignant.
There are like 50 billion UN resolutions condemning Israel. But everyone just seems to assume that Muslims can't do anything else.
There is just no point in talking about it.
Tom

 

[Yerda]

Do they wear it for religious reasons? If yes then it would be banned in France. If not, then no. French society is more fiercely secular than others in Europe, and with good reason. The French are all-too-aware of what happens when you allow domineering, intolerant religions to have influence over government. European history is replete with such examples.

In what way does a women wearing a wetsuit with a cap indicate domineering, intolerant, religions influencing government?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

In what way does a women wearing a wetsuit with a cap indicate domineering, intolerant, religions influencing government?

In and of itself, it does not. But France has always maintained a strict separation between the public sphere and religious expression. Muslims are now essentially demanding that they should be exempted from this - in spite of the whole 'Muslims should respect the laws of the country they live in' thing which, apparently, only applies some of the time - and are using the country's religious freedom laws to enable them to continue placing a culture of ****-shaming and victim-blaming on women as that is what body-covering is for in Muslim countries.

 

[Yerda]

In and of itself, it does not. But France has always maintained a strict separation between the public sphere and religious expression. Muslims are now essentially demanding that they should be exempted from this - in spite of the whole 'Muslims should respect the laws of the country they live in' thing which, apparently, only applies some of the time - and are using the country's religious freedom laws to enable them to continue placing a culture of ****-shaming and victim-blaming on women as that is what body-covering is for in Muslim countries.

I kinda agree. But I kinda don't. I really don't think Muslims as people should conform to laws prohibiting them from wearing anything (to a point) and neither should we expect them to if we are being responsible. But yes, the use of religious freedom as a banner to justify all sorts of horrible behaviour in the Muslim world is worrying.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think French law has ever said anything about religious dress in public until Sarkozy had the burka and niqab banned and even then the ostensible reason was that the face was being covered and not that it was a particularly religious way of covering the face.

 

[Augustus]

The French are all-too-aware of what happens when you allow domineering, intolerant religions to have influence over government.

For the sake of discussion, they are also all to aware of what happens when you allow domineering, intolerant secularism to have influence over government.

There was a dark side to The Enlightenment

I may be mistaken, but I don't think French law has ever said anything about religious dress in public until Sarkozy had the burka and niqab banned

During the reign of terror religious symbols were violently prohibited.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

For the sake of discussion, they are also all to aware of what happens when you allow domineering, intolerant secularism to have influence over government.

There was a dark side to The Enlightenment

That's a fair point. I think on balance though that of the two, religious influence over governance has resulted in more suffering & misery and that the French might recognise this. Further, the removal of a corrupt monarchy & the Church aiding that corruption from power would be seen as an overall good thing even if the consequences were... unpleasant.