" Franklin Graham Has Been Rejected by Every Venue for His UK Tour"

[columbus]

The issue there is with the violence, which is already illegal.

If they had convinced the venue to cancel him with a non-violent protest, there would have been no issue.

But that didn't happen.
Milo Y got De-platformed by violent people trying(successfully) to censor him.

If ANTIFA had de-platformed Milo Y by threatening repercussions that weren't technically violent, they'd still have de-platformed Milo Y.

This has nothing to do with my opinions about his show. This is entirely(IMHO), about censoring of unpopular opinions. In Milo's case, the University was broadening people's world view by inviting unpopular opinions. California liberals made it clear that they would use violence to prevent broadening horizons.
Tom

 

[columbus]

Statistical analysis in the UK will probably show US evangelical conventions have a very minimal impact on anti-gay hate crimes there though.

How many anti-gay hate crimes fall below your threshold of "minimal impact".
3?
20?
500?

Assuming this is the case, would it be ok?

Here's a big part of the problem.
People like Graham cause huge psychological damage that destroys families and doesn't show up for years in statistical analysis as the results of psychological abuse of children.
That doesn't mean it doesn't happen or is the result of Graham teaching things that he truly believes, but are false.

That's a huge part of the problem with the primitive ethics of Scriptural morality. Modern knowledge gets dismissed because religions teach that ancient, primitive, people knew more than we do.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If they sell rooms to public speakers then what those speakers talk about is irrelevant. So yeah, vibe is no excuse for censorship. Hire rooms or don't.

So you are talking about something very different from the current system.

It's basically the reverse of baking gay wedding cakes, lol - sell cakes or don't.

There are a few differences between wedding cakes and speaking venues, though.

The wedding cake maker still has control over the content. They can refuse to make a particular cake design; they just can't refuse to sell a cake that they would make for any other customer.

To apply the wedding cake analogy to a venue: the venue might refuse to allow a neo-Nazi rally regardless of who rents the venue, but would allow the hall to be rented for, say, a dance recital even if the dance school owner is a neo-Nazi.

 

[Galateasdream]

So you are talking about something very different from the current system.

Never said or though otherwise. I've been talking should, not is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But that didn't happen.
Milo Y got De-platformed by violent people trying(successfully) to censor him.

Not censored. Again: only a government can do that.

If ANTIFA had de-platformed Milo Y by threatening repercussions that weren't technically violent, they'd still have de-platformed Milo Y.

Sure. Still not censorship.

This has nothing to do with my opinions about his show. This is entirely(IMHO), about censoring of unpopular opinions. In Milo's case, the University was broadening people's world view by inviting unpopular opinions. California liberals made it clear that they would use violence to prevent broadening horizons.
Tom

I think you're misrepresenting the situation. It was a student group - Berkely Patriot - not "the University" that invited Milo to speak.

BTW: exactly how do you think Milo's talk - if it had gone ahead - would have "broadened horizons?"

 

[Galateasdream]

Total aside:
I quite like Milo, even though I disagree with him on stuff.
I went to see him once. He didn't turn up, lol. Both his protestors and supporters were so pathetic it was funny.

 

[columbus]

Not censored. Again: only a government can do that.

Obviously, we have different meanings for the word censored.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Obviously, we have different meanings for the word censored.
Tom

Seems that way.

Would you consider a boycott to be censorship?

 

[columbus]

Seems that way.

Would you consider a boycott to be censorship?

Depends.
If you're boycotting agreements you've already made then probably yes.

If you're exercising your right to free association, including the right to avoid association by avoiding a for profit private entity, then no.

You seem determined to make this issue into a binary thing. Either you do, or you don't. You are or you're not. You support or you censor.

I don't see it that way.

I'm totally good with Graham running into difficulties promulgating his hateful version of Christianity. But I do have standards concerning freedom of speech that are "different" from British standards. But I don't live there and I don't much care what those quaint denizens of an excellent tourist destination do with themselves when I'm not around.
Tom

 

[SomeRandom]

But that didn't happen.
Milo Y got De-platformed by violent people trying(successfully) to censor him.

If ANTIFA had de-platformed Milo Y by threatening repercussions that weren't technically violent, they'd still have de-platformed Milo Y.

This has nothing to do with my opinions about his show. This is entirely(IMHO), about censoring of unpopular opinions. In Milo's case, the University was broadening people's world view by inviting unpopular opinions. California liberals made it clear that they would use violence to prevent broadening horizons.
Tom

Lol Milo. That ******* kind of deserved it after he basically outed himself as a pederast apologist. I remember the speech that came from, but it’s been years so I’m doubtful I can find a clip of it now.
Bordering horizons, sure. By allowing a troll come and tell kids that they should celebrate being banned off twitter for being awful trolls and deliberately provoke people. Like an *******. And then claim censorship once you breach the terms of service. Though admittedly getting banned from Twitter is quite the accomplishment, given how much of a cesspit it is.

I used to defend his right to free speech too. But he’s all narcissism and toxicity. As I recall he often hid behind “identity politics” whenever confronted.
“Oh I can’t be a Nazi, I’m a Jewish gay guy who enjoys interracial sex with my husband.”
Although typing that, I’m suddenly reminded of the footage of him singing Tomorrow Belongs to me in a pub/bar with some obvious Nazis. I sincerely hope they were all just larping as an elaborate prank because yikes!!
I question how much of a platform so called “provocateurs” really deserve in society these days.

This is beside the point but Contrapoints made this statement about him years ago, paraphrasing obviously since it’s been too long.
“Milo thinks he’s Oscar Wilde but really he’s Dorian Gray.”

 

[Augustus]

How many anti-gay hate crimes fall below your threshold of "minimal impact".
3?
20?
500?

How many hate crimes do you think it should take before someone should be deplatformed for promoting views that could be considered as having the potential to cause such crimes?

You are the one arguing the measurement has nothing to do with the content of the speech itself, but 'statistical analysis' of its impact. So where is the cutoff point?

1 hate crime, even if it is not connected directly to you, means deplatformed? Something else?

 

[PruePhillip]

.

"Every UK venue that had been booked on behalf of Christian evangelist Franklin Graham has now refused to play along with the anti-LGBTQ bigot, leaving him scrambling to find hosts for his hate parade.

Remember that just last week, a venue in Liverpool said no to hosting Graham because of his long history of bigotry which was “incompatible with our values.” The dominoes began falling after that.

​

Now all eight venues that had been booked have canceled on Graham.

The Utilita Arena in Newcastle was the final venue to announce it had axed the preacher, following the lead of venues in Birmingham, Newport, Glasgow, Milton Keynes, Sheffield and Liverpool. A London date, also planned, never secured a venue.

Newcastle’s Utilita Arena confirmed on Wednesday: “Following talks with our partners and relevant stakeholders we can confirm that the Franklin Graham event scheduled at the Utilita Arena Newcastle in June will not take place.”​

Thoughts and prayers.

Remember that this isn’t some attack on Christianity. It’s a rejection of the brand of Christianity that claims homosexuality is a “sin,” that Satan created same-sex marriage, that the existence of gay people amounts to a “moral 9/11,” that gay people are “the enemy” of civilization, and that gay conversion torture is a wonderful idea.
source​

.

Yes, dominos ARE falling - the WOKE culture is impacting freedoms. A guy I know was asked to leave a restaurant
for wearing a Trump 2020 cap. You probably don't like Trump but here's a generation that doesn't know what free
speech is about, or how many people died to give us our freedoms.
The snowflake generation, the safe spaces, disinviting speakers who disagree with you, defacing posters, pulling
down statues, banning books, castrating children, firing people for their social media views, taking church people
to court for quoting the bible. We are rapidly becoming a Stalinist society, ruled over by the self appointed Woke
Commissars.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Depends.
If you're boycotting agreements you've already made then probably yes.

If a venue breaches a contract by cancelling a booking, that's purely a civil matter.

If the agreement allows the venue to cancel without penalty, then there's no issue at all.

 

[Kevin Armstrong]

No particular sympathy for Graham. But wht did these venues book his event in the first place if they wouldn't keep their agreements?
Don't British folks have any sense of obligation to an agreement reached?
Tom

Sadly the answer is no, especially once the well-funded and well organised LGBTQI+++ brigade get their teeth into things. Liverpool venue rolled over meekly once the snowflakes argued that Graham might actually incite the audience to " attack" said snowflakes. I would have gone just to hear what he had to say on a range of issues and I'm not of any religious persuasion. It's more the fact that anything that in the slightest challenges the ideology of this minority, really is the thin end of a rapidly disappearing wedge. That said, fun and games will occur in September once the stupid idea to "teach" kids as young as 4 and 5 about LGBTQI+++ lifestyles and beliefs. In particular there will be one almighty clash with the Muslims in certain highly concentrated areas.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sadly the answer is no, especially once the well-funded and well organised LGBTQI+++ brigade get their teeth into things. Liverpool venue rolled over meekly once the snowflakes argued that Graham might actually incite the audience to " attack" said snowflakes. I would have gone just to hear what he had to say on a range of issues and I'm not of any religious persuasion. It's more the fact that anything that in the slightest challenges the ideology of this minority, really is the thin end of a rapidly disappearing wedge.

Aww... sounds like someone is upset about his unearned privilege being eroded away.

That said, fun and games will occur in September once the stupid idea to "teach" kids as young as 4 and 5 about LGBTQI+++ lifestyles and beliefs. In particular there will be one almighty clash with the Muslims in certain highly concentrated areas.

Of course we can't let people know that LGBTQ people exist! If they can't be erased entirely, surely they can at least have enough shame to stay hidden!

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I hate the tyrannical hate speech laws of the U.K.

Do you live here? If you do, you can always campaign for a change in the law — don't expect many supporters though, apart from Nazis. If you don't, who cares?

 

[columbus]

If a venue breaches a contract by cancelling a booking, that's purely a civil matter.

If the agreement allows the venue to cancel without penalty, then there's no issue at all.

I quite agree.
My comment was only really about the obligation to keep an agreement. I don't think private entities owe anybody anything like a platform. I didn't even think that bakery owed anyone a cake.

Essential needs are different. Housing and healthcare, security and emergency services, that sort of thing. But not venues or fancy baked goods.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I quite agree.
My comment was only really about the obligation to keep an agreement. I don't think private entities owe anybody anything like a platform. I didn't even think that bakery owed anyone a cake.

Different situations.

Essential needs are different. Housing and healthcare, security and emergency services, that sort of thing. But not venues or fancy baked goods.
Tom

The difference between a venue refusing (or cancelling on) a speaker and a baker refusing a gay couple: the venue is discriminating based on the content, which is generally legal, but the baker is discriminating based on the characteristics of the customer, which is generally illegal.

 

[columbus]

Different situations.

You're prioritizing the differences. I see the similarities as more important, in this context.
In both cases, nongovernmental entities are being required to do things they don't want to do. I'm prioritizing human rights over certain human "entitlements".

The difference between a venue refusing (or cancelling on) a speaker and a baker refusing a gay couple: the venue is discriminating based on the content, which is generally legal, but the baker is discriminating based on the characteristics of the customer, which is generally illegal.

I don't see that as the main difference. The main difference I see is that private individuals are trying to force other people to do things, that aren't crucial, due to personal opinions.
Tom

 

[Skwim]

Yes, dominos ARE falling - the WOKE culture is impacting freedoms. A guy I know was asked to leave a restaurant
for wearing a Trump 2020 cap. You probably don't like Trump but here's a generation that doesn't know what free
speech is about, or how many people died to give us our freedoms.
The snowflake generation, the safe spaces, disinviting speakers who disagree with you, defacing posters, pulling
down statues, banning books, castrating children, firing people for their social media views, taking church people
to court for quoting the bible. We are rapidly becoming a Stalinist society, ruled over by the self appointed Woke
Commissars.

Kind of a Henny Penny world you've got going for yourself here.

.

.